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How would you feel about Tanking?

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:54 AM
  #51
Et le But
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This is not a decision you make in October, unless you are the Ottawa Senators.

Why do you guys want to throw away a season of hockey so badly? Last nights game was great, and while we didn't get the results we wanted, I don't think I could stand having to deal with my favourite team get blown out every night for an entire season. Teams do that because they are either in a small market and have no other way of attracting support than drafting high profile choices, or because they have no other choice because everything went wrong. Everything has not gone wrong here, not yet.

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10-19-2011, 09:55 AM
  #52
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I don't even know what the mechanism for tanking would be? They put Price on the bench in favour of Budaj? What good players do we have who other teams want/can afford right now? Salary caps and rosters are pretty full. The key young guys presumably have to stay for the rebuild. Does Gauthier fire his coaching staff and replace them with guys who *don't* want future employment in the league? How do you tank?

Any team that tried to pull that stuff 5 games into a season - especially one where they were at least general consensus picks to make the playoffs - would be the laughingstock of the league, the whole management group would need to be liquidated, and probably the team would be in the midst of an emergency sale to a new ownership group as well.

It's not a conceivable situation. Might as well ask how I'd feel if the franchise relocated to Las Vegas or our players all decided in unison to jump to the KHL. Yeah, I'd be disappointed.

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10-19-2011, 09:55 AM
  #53
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Tanking in hockey makes as little sense as it does in baseball. You're talking about 18 year old kids that are likely years away and there are no guarentees they even end up better than alot of the guys taken after them. Sure a generational talent up front would be nice, but that involves getting into the top 5, even then it's still a gamble, and I just don't see us being that bad over 82 games if we tried.

The way our roster is constructed, we are built to compete now having recently signed guys like Markov, Cammalleri, Plekanec, and Cole, and Gionta, and are in good shape going forward with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Eller.

the year to tank was when Koivu, Kovalev, etc were UFAs. When you have a bunch of UFAs coming up, and you aren't going to make the playoffs, then you tank.

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:58 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyFischer View Post
Yep, honestly.. Wiz should have been signed over Markov, for a variety of reasons.

I understand Markov bleeds Blue, Blanc et Rouge, but this is a business, after all.. the guy is one big hit or awkward fall away from retirement.
The irony in this post is great, I'll let you figure out why. (here's a hint, look up Wiz and right knee injuries)

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:59 AM
  #55
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Old
10-19-2011, 10:10 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
The irony in this post is great, I'll let you figure out why. (here's a hint, look up Wiz and right knee injuries)
Right over his head.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:23 AM
  #57
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Sports fans are so ridiculous.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:25 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I want a top three pick in 2012 but I see Montreal making the playoffs with the 7th or 8th seed in the east and either losing in the first or second round.

Players I would love to talk for are:

Mikhail Grigorenko
RW / 6'2" / 191 pounds

Alex Galchenyuk
C / 6'1" / 185 pounds

Ryan Murray
D / 6'0" / 190 pounds

As for Nail Yakupov, I have seen him play and the kid has talent but I don't want Russian players and I feel that at 5'10" he is too small and we need a BIG centre with skill like Galchenyuk or a shutdown defenseman with skill to play with our amazing core of future defenseman in Murray.

Imagine:

Subban - Murray
Tinordi - Beaulieu
Yakupov is 6'0 190. Still isn't exaclty big but the man he's good. If the Habs have the oppourtinity to draft him, they better. Him and MacKinnon is Ovechkin and Crosby 2.0.

Grigorenko and Galchenyuk are russians.. Just like Yakupov.

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10-19-2011, 10:52 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jimmym007 View Post
Am I the only one who's happier and happier everytime I see habs lose? Don't get me wrong, I'm a die hard habs fan and would love more than seeing a cup in mtl in my lifetime, but when I see 2012 draft prospects and habs losing record, I can't help but to see a much brighter future.

We need change, defensive system is boring and clearly isn't working with the defense we have (most of them being offensive dmen except for Gill and Gorges). We need an offensive coach and size, but it doesn't cut it with the guys we have. We'll have to change the team all over and rebuild from the start. PG doesn't want that I'm sure, but I believe that we'll never win a cup with this team. Rebuilding starts with one franchise player and building around him. We thought about Price, hence why we built a defensive system around him. It worked not too bad, but still not good enough. We need a star that can score, because right now, when we're getting scored on, we have nobody that can tie the game up. When we happen to have the lead, we defend it. This whole mentality has to change, too. When we have to rely on guys like pacioretty when we're down by a goal, that's a good sign you need quality goal scorers.

Habs should stop drafting defensemen in the first round from now on. We've got enough now, it keeps us from drafting potential top 6 forwards.

The question I'd like to ask you guys is, how would you feel if habs plan was to tank this year? Not saying it was even mentionned by anybody in the habs organisation, but would you mind to "fail for nail" for the entire season knowing what the upcoming years would look like? Would you rather trade for a first overall pick (We have nothing close to being worth of a 1st overall in 2012 though).

I saw a lot of "habs and sens will fight for the 1st overall pick this year" or "Coyotes and Montreal won't have more than 25 wins this season" comments. It's the first time I see comments underrating the habs at that point, even if the authors of these quotes are nowhere near credible, people around the league seem to think we're going to finish in the bottom 5. I don't particularly share their opinions, but I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about that.



This is not a panic thread or a ranting on the habs current performance. It's an personnal review and personnal questions I've asked myself, please discuss without flaming and judging. Thank you.


wait.......i get it now,your a spy right ? who sent you ?

must be the leafs board's

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:57 AM
  #60
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Montreal will never tank on purpose.

Sure, we have ****** start to the season, but nothing is determined in the first couple games out of 82. I'd say with the state of our D right now, we can't be surprised at the result.

However, I think the Habs still look like a competitive team. I'm not hitting the panic button, there's a lot of hockey left to play and everyone remembers the Leafs going 6-0 last year only to miss the playoffs again. At the same time, we can't suck for too long and put ourselves out of a playoff spot early, and just come up short of 2 points like Calgary last year.

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10-19-2011, 11:05 AM
  #61
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Strange thread. No tanking ever. It is the cowards way out.

To the OP, not to worry about the need to tank. Martin will get the Habs a higher draft pick without the need to tank.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:06 AM
  #62
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Tanking!?? Come on! We are 5 games into the season... We could go on a 3 or 4 game winning streak next and people will be talking of building a dynasty and try to guess how many cups in a row we can win...

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:23 AM
  #63
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You people are nuts. I'm really questioning whether or not some of you watched any games this year at all. From what I've seen the Habs are not a bottom 5 team, they're not a bottom 14 team either. They've been completely outplaying their opposition lately and it's only a matter of time before that translates into wins. You'll see them in the playoffs come April and with any luck May and June.

But, hey, lets compare our record to that of our arch-nemesis, the Big Bad Bruins. They're not doing too hot either. Good teams struggle sometimes, luckily for us the season isn't 5 games long, it's 82 games long.

On the subject of the thread: I would be absolutely disgusted by the idea of tanking. We're too proud a franchise to drop to the level of the Pittsburgh Penguins

GO HABS GO

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:26 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
This is not a decision you make in October, unless you are the Ottawa Senators.

Why do you guys want to throw away a season of hockey so badly? Last nights game was great, and while we didn't get the results we wanted, I don't think I could stand having to deal with my favourite team get blown out every night for an entire season. Teams do that because they are either in a small market and have no other way of attracting support than drafting high profile choices, or because they have no other choice because everything went wrong. Everything has not gone wrong here, not yet.
The most famous tanking attempts that worked started in October, may as well start now if we were to attempt it. Else we may risk the tanking to fizzle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't even know what the mechanism for tanking would be? They put Price on the bench in favour of Budaj? What good players do we have who other teams want/can afford right now? Salary caps and rosters are pretty full. The key young guys presumably have to stay for the rebuild. Does Gauthier fire his coaching staff and replace them with guys who *don't* want future employment in the league? How do you tank?

Any team that tried to pull that stuff 5 games into a season - especially one where they were at least general consensus picks to make the playoffs - would be the laughingstock of the league, the whole management group would need to be liquidated, and probably the team would be in the midst of an emergency sale to a new ownership group as well.

It's not a conceivable situation. Might as well ask how I'd feel if the franchise relocated to Las Vegas or our players all decided in unison to jump to the KHL. Yeah, I'd be disappointed.
The Habs were NOT a consensus pick to be a playoff team, even though the range of playoff seeding varied greatly from a prediction to the next, some of us having us even as high as a #2/3 seed, others had us just squeaking in. With the team as currently constructed we wouldn't really need to do that much, just give Budaj even 30 starts would likely ensure us a pick in the 3-5 range, perhaps even as high as #2, probably enough for us to land Grigorenko. But we will have to out-suck both the Sens and the Jets to have a chance to get the first overall pick, which I fear we cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
Tanking in hockey makes as little sense as it does in baseball. You're talking about 18 year old kids that are likely years away and there are no guarentees they even end up better than alot of the guys taken after them. Sure a generational talent up front would be nice, but that involves getting into the top 5, even then it's still a gamble, and I just don't see us being that bad over 82 games if we tried.

The way our roster is constructed, we are built to compete now having recently signed guys like Markov, Cammalleri, Plekanec, and Cole, and Gionta, and are in good shape going forward with Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Eller.

the year to tank was when Koivu, Kovalev, etc were UFAs. When you have a bunch of UFAs coming up, and you aren't going to make the playoffs, then you tank.
Tanking makes more sense in hockey than in baseball for sure. Of course, tanking makes more sense in basketball or football than it would in hockey but it did make sense in a couple of cases (i.e. 1983-84 Pens/Devils) and likely will make sense this year around, both in the NHL and the KHL. As I know it, Dinamo Riga is also tanking, with a clear draft target (Rihards Bukarts) if they landed a top-4 pick.

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10-19-2011, 11:33 AM
  #65
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LOL at all you "voices of reason" and "true fans". Read the OP before jumping on the guy for bringing up tanking. From his original post:

"The question I'd like to ask you guys is, how would you feel if habs plan was to tank this year?"

Now, answer the question, or ignore the thread. It would make everyone's experience better, I'm sure, and perhaps an actual discussion on whether or not it would even be possible or work out in the end could take place instead of name calling and accusations.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:36 AM
  #66
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gomez elevate his play in the playoffs? check his stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamz View Post
With Markov and Cammalleri in the line up, the Habs are atleast a playoffs team. In the playoffs, Cammalleri, Gomez and Gill elevate their game. The Habs don't need to tank, they already have a shot at the Cup.

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10-19-2011, 11:40 AM
  #67
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People wonder why we're laughed at on the main boards? Were supposed to be a knowledgeable fanbase, but with this many fans comes this much baggage I suppose.

Die hard fan and enjoy losing all in one sentence. I don't even know how to respond to such pos.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:42 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
LOL at all you "voices of reason" and "true fans". Read the OP before jumping on the guy for bringing up tanking. From his original post:

"The question I'd like to ask you guys is, how would you feel if habs plan was to tank this year?"

Now, answer the question, or ignore the thread. It would make everyone's experience better, I'm sure, and perhaps an actual discussion on whether or not it would even be possible or work out in the end could take place instead of name calling and accusations.
well, while they didnt use the "I feel", I think it's pretty obvious how most would feel about the Habs tanking...

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10-19-2011, 11:50 AM
  #69
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I'd feel like we would be getting the final component to get us to be true contenders.

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10-19-2011, 12:07 PM
  #70
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"tanking" in terms of somehow "purposely" trying to finish low in the standings would be idiotic, and doesn't really happen... some teams, usually with financial restrictions, may go over the top in unloading quality players with no viable alternatives in place, but the habs will never be in that situation (at least not as long as the stands are full and the cdn dollar is on par with U.S greenback).


that said, I would fully be supportive of PG aggressively trying to unload certain players regardless of return...

Gomez, obviously.
Spacek, again, obviously.

though in both cases I actually think the alternatives we have in place are as good, or better, so i don't think that would lead to a drop in play.



and then, if the team was still performing marginally at around christmas time, I wouldn't at all be opposed to seeing them move a few UFA's to be in return for prospects/picks, with the strategic plan of accumulating enough assets to make a run at landing a top-ten pick via trade prior to the draft.

A.Kost
Gill
Moen
Campoli

those would be the candidates, I'd probably lean towards keeping Gill, because the return would probably be marginal and he does bring a positive leadership/professionalism component to the room that would be of even greater value if we were moving vets and giving more young guys bigger roles.

in January/February, those 3-4 vets could quite conceivably gets us 2-3 top 60 picks from teams solidly in the playoffs looking to bulk up their depth for a cup run.

moving all 6 of those players would obviously kill our depth (especially factoring in injury issues), and would probably make the playoffs a long shot, but i don't think a team with Pleks, Cammy, MaxPac, Cole, Gionta, Eller, DD up front, Subban, Gorges, Markov(?) anchoring the D, and Price in nets, would ever really be capable of "tanking"... unless injuries decimated that group.


to be honest, I'd like to see the team strategically move in that direction almost regardless of where we are come January/February.
Unless the team has miraculously gone on a tear, those vets to-be-moved are all playing at career best levels, and the team all of a sudden looks like a cup contender, I think focusing on a more long-term approach to building a winner woudl serve us well.

time for PG to channel his inner-Pollock, and start scheming to land us a bonafide star up front (Cammy has been that in the playoffs, but doesn't seem durable enough or consistent enough to be that guy for a whole season).

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Old
10-19-2011, 12:09 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
The Habs were NOT a consensus pick to be a playoff team, even though the range of playoff seeding varied greatly from a prediction to the next, some of us having us even as high as a #2/3 seed, others had us just squeaking in.
...
But you're saying the nebulous majority had us missing the playoffs? That wasn't my impression.

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10-19-2011, 12:13 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Ballzilly View Post
Lafleur... and Réjean Houle too !
Houle was before the modern draft... Many players had already been signed to C-Forms. His being 1st overall is meaningless. Wickenheizer was a 1st overall though. He wasn't a bust but he wasn't the superstar everyone thought he'd be either.

Then again, Denis Savard (2nd) went on to become a HOF player so...

And hey, out of two number one overall picks we landed one of the top ten players of all-time to go along with a decent 2nd line player. That isn't really all that bad is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't even know what the mechanism for tanking would be? They put Price on the bench in favour of Budaj? What good players do we have who other teams want/can afford right now? Salary caps and rosters are pretty full. The key young guys presumably have to stay for the rebuild. Does Gauthier fire his coaching staff and replace them with guys who *don't* want future employment in the league? How do you tank?

Any team that tried to pull that stuff 5 games into a season - especially one where they were at least general consensus picks to make the playoffs - would be the laughingstock of the league, the whole management group would need to be liquidated, and probably the team would be in the midst of an emergency sale to a new ownership group as well.

It's not a conceivable situation. Might as well ask how I'd feel if the franchise relocated to Las Vegas or our players all decided in unison to jump to the KHL. Yeah, I'd be disappointed.
That's why 'tanking' doesn't exist. Nobody in favour of rebuilding would suggest that you bench Price and try to lose. It doesn't work that way. Trading away guys like Cammy and Markov so that you can win down the road though makes sense. We'd hang on to Subban, MaxPac, Eller, Price... the young guys. Then we'd build around them plus our returns. Yeah, we'd probably sink in the standings but we'd play to win as best we could with what we had and in the long run would probably be better off. Even if we did this though, we'd be too good to finish in last place. The point would be to trade for the best prospects we could and build with them. If we got other top 10 picks to build with... great so much the better.

We need more Rivet for Gorges and a draft pick (MaxPac) type trades and less of the Gomez for McD and Higgy type trades. We might slip in the short run but it's one step back to get two steps forward. You have a much better chance of icing a cup contending team this way but it takes planning and patience.

But hey... Winning cups are for 'losers' right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Souvenirs View Post
Montreal will never tank on purpose.
That's right. We don't go that route.

Instead, we go out and let our players walk for zero return. Then we sign a bunch of overpaid smurfs in the hopes of finishing 8th.

That's the Montreal way of doing things now. I wonder if Jason Blake will be the best player available next year because then we'll have NO CHOICE but to give up our best prospects for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Souvenirs View Post
Sure, we have ****** start to the season, but nothing is determined in the first couple games out of 82. I'd say with the state of our D right now, we can't be surprised at the result.

However, I think the Habs still look like a competitive team. I'm not hitting the panic button, there's a lot of hockey left to play and everyone remembers the Leafs going 6-0 last year only to miss the playoffs again. At the same time, we can't suck for too long and put ourselves out of a playoff spot early, and just come up short of 2 points like Calgary last year.
And that's fine. Really, we should try to make the playoffs this year. You are right on this because we've got a core that should be capable of finishing at least middle of the pack. We really should see how it goes and it's too early to say how this season will go.

That being said though... if we're fighting for 8th place at the trading deadline, I'd much rather we just trade our vets and do what we should've done eons ago... rebuild.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Strange thread. No tanking ever. It is the cowards way out.
That's right. It takes a 'real man' to let his entire team leave without anything in return and then go out and sign a bunch of mediocre players to try to win with. Just like it takes a real man to go all in with a 7-2 in Texas Hold 'em or plan his retirement with a lottery ticket. Thank God we've had GMs that are willing to do this!

If we look like we can't make 8th place next year, we really need to go after the Jason Blakes to MAKE SURE that we can get the last playoff spot.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-19-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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Old
10-19-2011, 12:15 PM
  #73
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Ahh got to love a slow start to the season.
IIRC, this is the general reaction on our boards at any point in the season with more than 1 loss in a row.

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Old
10-19-2011, 12:21 PM
  #74
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Tanking is the dumbest concept ever.

The team is filled with talented players who are not being used to their proper abilities.

I wish you guys would just disappear...

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Old
10-19-2011, 12:28 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Ollie Williams View Post
IIRC, this is the general reaction on our boards at any point in the season with more than 1 loss in a row.
People are panicking more because it's at the start of the season but fail to see that the team has played 3 good games out of 5 and deserve to at least be 2-2-1, heck even 3-2-0.

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