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How would you feel about Tanking?

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Old
10-19-2011, 05:34 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
No offense but most top 3 picks are already NHL ready. Yakupov and Grigorenko would be immediate results, not three years of waiting. Besides plenty of teams have tanked one year and become fine after, especially when hit with injury. Like Philly in 2007.
and to be fair a total tank should get a team more than one top draft pick because the tanking team can also sell off vets at the trade deadline when their value is high for contenders, so maybe a couple picks and prospects added there. but i still am against it

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10-19-2011, 05:44 PM
  #102
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Id like getting a top 5 pick more than mid pick like everybody. If we are to miss the play off im all for it (ala colorado they were at 8th or such until fleischman got injured). But I believe its unlikely, we will probably finish 8th.

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10-19-2011, 05:45 PM
  #103
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That's the thing: we haven't sucked. We dominated Buffalo. We dominated Winnipeg. We dominated the Leafs in the first period, but were very unlucky when it came to goal scoring and the Leafs capitalized, changing the momentum for the rest of the game. We played well against the Flames. It's simply a case of not getting the bounces.

Even if the Habs are doing terribly 20 games in, telling the team to tank is absolutely ridiculous. We would dramatically curb the development of all the young players we have in the league right now; pretty much making our team much worse off in the future. We would aim at getting a player who we aren't even sure would help our team. It is absolutely stupid to ruin where this team is headed just for ONE PLAYER and hope he can carry our team to victory.

I'm honestly surprised at how few people recognize how ridiculous it is.
Then let's hope we don't suck once Cammalleri and Markov come back into play.

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10-19-2011, 06:41 PM
  #104
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I'd feel like we would be getting the final component to get us to be true contenders.
So we have a team a piece away from true contenders and you prefer throwing a season to have a player who will probably be a prime player in two or three years? Doesn't make sense.

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10-19-2011, 06:55 PM
  #105
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Problem IMO is Gauthier gambled too much on "if healthy".

I would have kept the Wiz and signed Hammer, also would have kept Auld and keep Pyatt. Some weird moves this year.

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10-19-2011, 07:06 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Don't worry, the thread will go away once we win two in a row and be replaced by something called "Feels like '93." Then it will come back with a vengeance after our next two game losing streak. It's the nature of the beast here.

You mean rebuilding right?

Right... because only a real fan wants the club to build mediocre teams that aren't good enough to win cups right?

Well, we know enough that we've been avoiding any kind of true rebuild for almost two decades and we've been treading water ever since.

We've watched as other clubs have traded for younger players, picks and prospects and built through the draft to assemble contenders and champions as we've sat on the sidelines without superstars or sniffing a cup appearance.

We know that our only top five pick in the last quarter century (via a one time ever league wide lottery) also happens to be our best player and who we pin all of our hopes on to get us into the playoffs. We also know that our best forward prospect was traded for in a rebuilding move that we'd like to see more of. We've also watched as we ditched a great prospect for an overpaid underperforming soft center who isn't going to lead us anywhere.

We also know that the club hasn't shown any real kind of desire to build a cup winning club through their actions because clubs that want to win don't go out and sign small mediocre players to build their core around. We know that the fan base seems to be okay with 8th place finishes and will defend many moves no matter how bad they are for our future.

I think we know the team better than you do.
good one heres a cookie. Whatever builds you're self esteem.

First of all TANKING is the most cowardly thing to do in sports, and when a team is clearly TANKING they should be fined/penalized heavily. It's a joke, and something losers do, and is completely unethical. Canadiens don't rebuild we draft good players, which we are starting to do a good job of now for the first time in years. Canadiens have too much pride to finish last. Also our fans can't wait 5 years to make the playoffs, which would cause a lot of backlash towards the current team that would be "rebuilding" = PLayers being bood and repeatedly thus showing how much we hate to lose, which in turn would make any UFA not want to come to MTL ever. Its bad enough now already.

Did you forget that what you call average teams have won cups?..Have you forgot that a playoff team has just as good of a chance to win the cup like any other playoff team these days?..Have you forgot about just last yr we gave the cup champs their toughest challenge? Have you forgot that we were in the conference finals just 2 years ago?. Have you forgot the pure heart and up and coming young talent we have?..Have you forgot that Markov Cammi Spacek and White are injured? I'd like to think u don't take anything into consideration and are one of the reasons why canadiens fans are called manic habs fans. You seem to only think of right now and not the big picture. So instead of personally attacking me maybe you should use you're barin and think before you type. Get a grip boy


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10-19-2011, 07:26 PM
  #107
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I'm all for it this year. If we got Mikhail Grigorenko, we'd finally have the star center we're missing. By the time he's developed, a lot of the more talented prospects we have will be go-to guys. We'd no longer have Gionta and Gomez weighing down the wings, we'd keep Cammy to have a sniper for Grigorenko to feed.

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Old
10-19-2011, 07:39 PM
  #108
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Hope Spacek, Cammalleri and Markov help us put our act together then...

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Old
10-19-2011, 08:00 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jimmym007 View Post
Am I the only one who's happier and happier everytime I see habs lose? Don't get me wrong, I'm a die hard habs fan and would love more than seeing a cup in mtl in my lifetime, but when I see 2012 draft prospects and habs losing record, I can't help but to see a much brighter future.

We need change, defensive system is boring and clearly isn't working with the defense we have (most of them being offensive dmen except for Gill and Gorges). We need an offensive coach and size, but it doesn't cut it with the guys we have. We'll have to change the team all over and rebuild from the start. PG doesn't want that I'm sure, but I believe that we'll never win a cup with this team. Rebuilding starts with one franchise player and building around him. We thought about Price, hence why we built a defensive system around him. It worked not too bad, but still not good enough. We need a star that can score, because right now, when we're getting scored on, we have nobody that can tie the game up. When we happen to have the lead, we defend it. This whole mentality has to change, too. When we have to rely on guys like pacioretty when we're down by a goal, that's a good sign you need quality goal scorers.

Habs should stop drafting defensemen in the first round from now on. We've got enough now, it keeps us from drafting potential top 6 forwards.

The question I'd like to ask you guys is, how would you feel if habs plan was to tank this year? Not saying it was even mentionned by anybody in the habs organisation, but would you mind to "fail for nail" for the entire season knowing what the upcoming years would look like? Would you rather trade for a first overall pick (We have nothing close to being worth of a 1st overall in 2012 though).

I saw a lot of "habs and sens will fight for the 1st overall pick this year" or "Coyotes and Montreal won't have more than 25 wins this season" comments. It's the first time I see comments underrating the habs at that point, even if the authors of these quotes are nowhere near credible, people around the league seem to think we're going to finish in the bottom 5. I don't particularly share their opinions, but I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about that.



This is not a panic thread or a ranting on the habs current performance. It's an personnal review and personnal questions I've asked myself, please discuss without flaming and judging. Thank you.
How would i feel about tanking?

Not good jimmy, not good.

Tanking is the opposite of competing and competing is what sports is all about. If we had to loose our last game of the season to secure being dead last and therefore having the first overall pick, i would still want my team to win the game!

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Old
10-19-2011, 08:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
good one heres a cookie. Whatever builds you're self esteem.
You come here talking about how folks who disagree with you aren't real fans. Not sure why you feel the need to make yourself feel better by saying this. Sorry, but you're in no position to lecture on lack of self esteem. Save us the sanctimony and open your eyes.
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
First of all TANKING is the most cowardly thing to do in sports, and when a team is clearly TANKING they should be fined/penalized heavily. It's a joke, and something losers do, and is completely unethical.
If by 'tanking' you mean losing on purpose... absolutely teams should be fined. But that of course is not what rebuilders are arguing.

Of course you don't want to hear this because it's easier for you to distort the position so you can run away and hide from it.

BTW, that's what cowards do.
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Canadiens don't rebuild we draft good players, which we are starting to do a good job of now for the first time in years. Canadiens have too much pride to finish last. Also our fans can't wait 5 years to make the playoffs, which would cause a lot of backlash towards the current team that would be "rebuilding" = PLayers being bood and repeatedly thus showing how much we hate to lose, which in turn would make any UFA not want to come to MTL ever. Its bad enough now already.
We draft good players? Okay. I agree. Why not devote more of our attention to it? If you like the way we draft, then why not support more of a focus on it?

We draft good players sure. Too bad we don't draft great players. Too bad we don't focus enough on the draft and go out and take shortcuts by building our core via free agency and players who aren't good enough to win.

Maybe if we concentrated more on the draft and getting MORE picks we might actually be able to draft MORE good players. And maybe if we got some that were higher draft picks instead of drafting good players, we might actually be able to draft GREAT ones instead.

But hey, I'm sure that you figure that Sam Pollock was a coward too when he traded for picks that landed us guys like Guy Lafleur.

BTW, anyone who is a fan of Guy is a coward. Ditto for anyone who liked Ken Dryden. Another prospect who was traded for before anyone knew who he was.
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Did you forget that what you call average teams have won cups?..Have you forgot that a playoff team has just as good of a chance to win the cup like any other playoff team these days?..
Any playoff team has just as good a chance as anyone? Okay... strange how 8th place teams haven't won any cups.

This argument is silly in the extreme. Why should we try to be just good enough to make the playoffs and hope for a lucky win? Why not actually try to build a contender.

Why is this so threatening to you?
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Have you forgot about just last yr we gave the cup champs their toughest challenge? Have you forgot that we were in the conference finals just 2 years ago?. Have you forgot the pure heart and up and coming young talent we have?..
The pure heart? Tell me... are you Jack Todd? And too bad we didn't beat the Bruins last year because we automatically would've won the cup. I guess Philly would've won the cup too because they lost to the Bruins too. And I guess the Predators would've won the cup in 2010 if they hadn't lost to the Blackhawks...

And you like our young talent? Okay. Price (who is our only top five pick) looks like a star and we've got some good players coming up that we got via the draft... Subban and MaxPac are good young players. They are exciting yes... why not go after more of those kinds of players?

Look at the guys who we aren't excited about though. Those are the guys who we got via free agency or stupid trades. Nobody was upset when we traded away a vet for Gorges and a pick. Those are the kinds of trades that make sense. Why are you against those kinds of moves?

You seem to be happy with MaxPac. If we went out and dealt away a vet who got us another pick that landed us another MaxPac type player, wouldn't you be happy about this too?

Or does liking MaxPac not make you a real fan?
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Have you forgot that Markov Cammi Spacek and White are injured?
Pittsburgh seems to be doing just fine without Malkin or Crosby. Then again they have more top picks like Staal and Fleury to pick up the slack.

And are you telling us that if we had Spacek we'd be cup contenders?
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
I'd like to think u don't take anything into consideration and are one of the reasons why canadiens fans are called manic habs fans. You seem to only think of right now and not the big picture.
You sure you don't have that the other way around? I'm advocating a long term strategy that would help us build for the future. You're sitting there saying that the club has to try to win in now and go get guys like Gomez. Sure Gomez put up 50 points for us... but we lost out on a prospect that we could've built with. On the flipside, we made a rebuild move with Rivet for Gorges and a pick... that pick turned into Maxpac.

Who's the one being shortsighted here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
So instead of personally attacking me maybe you should use you're barin and think before you type. Get a grip boy
Take your own advice.

Don't come here talking about 'real fans' when all you are interested in winning is 8th place and a 2nd round playoff exit.


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Old
10-19-2011, 08:05 PM
  #111
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Tanking ?



What a lame thread !

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10-19-2011, 09:17 PM
  #112
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Habs don't tank.

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10-19-2011, 09:24 PM
  #113
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If we want to build for the future, we really should tank.
We don't have any legitimate top 6 forwards coming up in our pipeline, which is pathetic.

Our defense is not the issue, for the most part. Although it would be nice to add one tough SOB who can stand up for his teammates.

I can't wait to see who we waste our 2nd round pick on this year to get a PP defenseman.

2 for 21 and counting...we have yet to score a goal 5 on 4....

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10-19-2011, 09:25 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Caballero View Post
Habs don't tank.
That would insult the pride and tradition of the Habs.

Toiling in mediocrity is so much better.

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10-19-2011, 11:05 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You come here talking about how folks who disagree with you aren't real fans. Not sure why you feel the need to make yourself feel better by saying this. Sorry, but you're in no position to lecture on lack of self esteem. Save us the sanctimony and open your eyes.

If by 'tanking' you mean losing on purpose... absolutely teams should be fined. But that of course is not what rebuilders are arguing.

Of course you don't want to hear this because it's easier for you to distort the position so you can run away and hide from it.

BTW, that's what cowards do.

We draft good players? Okay. I agree. Why not devote more of our attention to it? If you like the way we draft, then why not support more of a focus on it?

We draft good players sure. Too bad we don't draft great players. Too bad we don't focus enough on the draft and go out and take shortcuts by building our core via free agency and players who aren't good enough to win.

Maybe if we concentrated more on the draft and getting MORE picks we might actually be able to draft MORE good players. And maybe if we got some that were higher draft picks instead of drafting good players, we might actually be able to draft GREAT ones instead.

But hey, I'm sure that you figure that Sam Pollock was a coward too when he traded for picks that landed us guys like Guy Lafleur.

BTW, anyone who is a fan of Guy is a coward. Ditto for anyone who liked Ken Dryden. Another prospect who was traded for before anyone knew who he was.

Any playoff team has just as good a chance as anyone? Okay... strange how 8th place teams haven't won any cups.

This argument is silly in the extreme. Why should we try to be just good enough to make the playoffs and hope for a lucky win? Why not actually try to build a contender.

Why is this so threatening to you?

The pure heart? Tell me... are you Jack Todd? And too bad we didn't beat the Bruins last year because we automatically would've won the cup. I guess Philly would've won the cup too because they lost to the Bruins too. And I guess the Predators would've won the cup in 2010 if they hadn't lost to the Blackhawks...

And you like our young talent? Okay. Price (who is our only top five pick) looks like a star and we've got some good players coming up that we got via the draft... Subban and MaxPac are good young players. They are exciting yes... why not go after more of those kinds of players?

Look at the guys who we aren't excited about though. Those are the guys who we got via free agency or stupid trades. Nobody was upset when we traded away a vet for Gorges and a pick. Those are the kinds of trades that make sense. Why are you against those kinds of moves?

You seem to be happy with MaxPac. If we went out and dealt away a vet who got us another pick that landed us another MaxPac type player, wouldn't you be happy about this too?

Or does liking MaxPac not make you a real fan?

Pittsburgh seems to be doing just fine without Malkin or Crosby. Then again they have more top picks like Staal and Fleury to pick up the slack.

And are you telling us that if we had Spacek we'd be cup contenders?

You sure you don't have that the other way around? I'm advocating a long term strategy that would help us build for the future. You're sitting there saying that the club has to try to win in now and go get guys like Gomez. Sure Gomez put up 50 points for us... but we lost out on a prospect that we could've built with. On the flipside, we made a rebuild move with Rivet for Gorges and a pick... that pick turned into Maxpac.

Who's the one being shortsighted here?

Take your own advice.

Don't come here talking about 'real fans' when all you are interested in winning is 8th place and a 2nd round playoff exit.
I'm not going to lower myself to ludicrous statements and comparisons from 30-50 years ago. Its a different game if you haven't noticed. It's a salary cap world now, and as soon as gomez's contract is done or lowered in years to come we can get that superstar player. His contract will be lowered by 2 million next yr and another million the year after. We don't need to rebuild we are contenders with a healthy line up. And no Spacek does not make us prime stanley cup contenders, but the young guys can learn a hell of a lot from him and make them that much better to make us more of contenders. Also before Spacek got injured he looked better than ever with that habs, great shape sharer mental decisions, and a better attitude.

And whats with all of your hate on for MacPac?. He has only played 128 games and is looking better every game. As far as im concerned I hope we draft more guys like him, be we all know you don't want players like him on the habs since you want a team full of superstars..Maybe you should just choose the red all star team. I mean its the closest to the habs uniform and you can just pretend its the habs once a yr so you can be happy. Salary cap=lots of FA movement and lots of stars to sign in most offseasons. IMO I think we are one true star away from being a top 8 contender in the league. I find it pathetic and repulsive that fans are all of a sudden calling for Martin's head and wanting to rebuild when we have the core to win. I guess from your logic Boston and Vancouver should pack it in too since they are having bad starts too. Colorado wins the cup then right?

Yes we have lots of great prospects Nathan Beaulieu, Danny Kristo, Louis Leblanc, Yannick Weber, Jarred Tinordi, Alexander Avtsin, Alexei Emelin, D, Brendon Nash, Brendan Gallagher who can be our martin st louis someday. You can even throw Diaz and Eller in the mix as great young prospects.

Whats with all the hate because I am positive and not a pessimist? I believe in this group of guys, and all I am trying to say to you is that we are only going to get better because we have lots of good young talent on our current roster. They will only get better! RELAX. Like I said we are contenders once we are healthy.

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10-19-2011, 11:05 PM
  #116
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Habs don't tank.

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10-19-2011, 11:06 PM
  #117
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Tanking ?



What a lame thread !
I second that statement. brings out all the pessimists

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10-19-2011, 11:07 PM
  #118
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Gauthier should've traded for Columbus' first round pick while they still thought they had a chance.

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10-19-2011, 11:08 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Plekamaniac View Post
If we want to build for the future, we really should tank.
We don't have any legitimate top 6 forwards coming up in our pipeline, which is pathetic.

Our defense is not the issue, for the most part. Although it would be nice to add one tough SOB who can stand up for his teammates.

I can't wait to see who we waste our 2nd round pick on this year to get a PP defenseman.

2 for 21 and counting...we have yet to score a goal 5 on 4....
maxpac says hi. eller says hi. Gallagher says hi, and the future drafts says hi. stop ing

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10-19-2011, 11:19 PM
  #120
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I live and die with each win and loss by this team. I will not be able to handle a horrible season. The ultimate goal for every team is to win the cup, but I'm pretty okay with having a successful and exciting season every year, even if we don't go all the way.

We're never going back to the dynasty era because the talent is just spread too thin in this league, and you really have to tank at the perfect time when generational talents are showing up in consecutive drafts. If it were not for their injury problems with Crosby and Malkin, I'm almost entirely positive Pittsburgh would have about 3-5 more cups in the next decade for that very reasonm which I don't think is going to happen now (my crystal ball is out of order so I'm just guessing). However, I don't ever want to have to suffer through what they did.

I'm pretty thankful to be excited for each and every game as I am now, and I definitely would not be if I was getting ready to go to or watch a game near the end of a season where we have 50+ losses. Rooting for my team to tank means rooting for them to lose each and every game, and what the **** kind of fan are you if you're asking for that by the very team you claim to love? That's not love, that's greed.

In short, **** tanking.


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10-20-2011, 12:01 AM
  #121
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I'm not going to lower myself to ludicrous statements and comparisons from 30-50 years ago.
I see. You'll lower yourself by calling rebuilders non-fans instead?
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Its a different game if you haven't noticed. It's a salary cap world now, and as soon as gomez's contract is done or lowered in years to come we can get that superstar player. His contract will be lowered by 2 million next yr and another million the year after. We don't need to rebuild we are contenders with a healthy line up. And no Spacek does not make us prime stanley cup contenders, but the young guys can learn a hell of a lot from him and make them that much better to make us more of contenders. Also before Spacek got injured he looked better than ever with that habs, great shape sharer mental decisions, and a better attitude.
Sure it's a different game... so what?

The principles are the same. Give up some of your present for the future. Pollock did this all the time. Other clubs didn't understand this principle and that's why he was able to succeed.

No doubt clubs understand the value of the draft better now and nobody is just going to hand you a 1st overall pick but the principle of sacrifice now for later still has value and clubs still do this today. For some reason though, you think that this is the cowards way out. You want a more recent example? Okay, how about Niewendyke for Iginla? Is that better? Should we hate all the Calgary fans that love Iggy too?

By your measurement the Calgary GM was a coward for recognizing that his club wasn't good enough to win and trading away his best player in order to improve in the future. I think you've got this completely backwards. The guy had balls of steel to do what he did and he was rewarded for it. But at least he made a move to try to win in the future. That's not cowardly, it's a smart bold move.
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
And whats with all of your hate on for MacPac?. He has only played 128 games and is looking better every game. As far as im concerned I hope we draft more guys like him, be we all know you don't want players like him on the habs since you want a team full of superstars..Maybe you should just choose the red all star team. I mean its the closest to the habs uniform and you can just pretend its the habs once a yr so you can be happy. Salary cap=lots of FA movement and lots of stars to sign in most offseasons. IMO I think we are one true star away from being a top 8 contender in the league. I find it pathetic and repulsive that fans are all of a sudden calling for Martin's head and wanting to rebuild when we have the core to win. I guess from your logic Boston and Vancouver should pack it in too since they are having bad starts too. Colorado wins the cup then right?
What hate for MaxPac? I think he's great and I'm glad we gave up a vet for the draft pick that landed us him.

This of course is exactly the kind of move that rebuilders are for and what you've said is the cowards way out...

Go read my post again.
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Yes we have lots of great prospects Nathan Beaulieu, Danny Kristo, Louis Leblanc, Yannick Weber, Jarred Tinordi, Alexander Avtsin, Alexei Emelin, D, Brendon Nash, Brendan Gallagher who can be our martin st louis someday. You can even throw Diaz and Eller in the mix as great young prospects.
Some are good. None are great... and you're completely missing what I wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Whats with all the hate because I am positive and not a pessimist? I believe in this group of guys, and all I am trying to say to you is that we are only going to get better because we have lots of good young talent on our current roster. They will only get better! RELAX. Like I said we are contenders once we are healthy.
What you have said is that rebuilders are cowards and it makes no sense to make moves that might not benefit us now but could in the future. And I strongly disagree with you on this.

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Old
10-20-2011, 12:18 AM
  #122
Habs13
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Not to insult anyone, but tanking is for loosers. Live to win.

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Old
10-20-2011, 12:25 AM
  #123
Bourne Endeavor
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I'll say this much, if by the deadline we are barely fighting for a playoff spot, then yes, 'tank.' There is nothing cowardly about coming to terms with reality, that things did not go our way and it is time to accept this. Even with the salary cap, you don't think Cammalleri would fetch a pretty return? I guarantee, Vancouver, San Jose, LA, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, New York and others would be drooling over an opportunity to mix him into their line.

This is of course a pure hypothetical.

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Old
10-20-2011, 12:30 AM
  #124
OneSharpMarble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
No offense but most top 3 picks are already NHL ready. Yakupov and Grigorenko would be immediate results, not three years of waiting. Besides plenty of teams have tanked one year and become fine after, especially when hit with injury. Like Philly in 2007.
No they aren't. Very few top picks make a big impact the next year. Sure you have the odd one or two but the percentages are not in your favor.

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Old
10-20-2011, 12:44 AM
  #125
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Ha. Good luck tanking with Price in net.

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