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Old
10-20-2011, 06:04 PM
  #326
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Why should Zuke return to Sweden? Just because Tortella doesn't like him?

It's a bit similar to Omark's situation in Edmonton. (Feels like it's only a matter of time before Omark is sent down.)

Both these guys still have good chances becoming good offensive NHL players, both of them offering some unreal skills. I don't want to see any of them in SEL yet. Hopefully both of them would prefer playing against the best players in the world in the NHL, not giving up their careers because their current coach doesn't like them.

About Tortella:
Putting Avery on waivers was a tough one but I still like him. He is a very straight forward and tough coach, no secrets, very direct and open with his views.
How are being open and forward and having no secrets good qualities in a coach? I'd be more than happy to have a coach who didn't openly give up his gameplan and his knee-jerk reactions on certain players even if they struggle for just one game, as long as he got results.

People seem to confuse qualities that would make a good friend or even a good comedian, for those of a good NHL COACH.

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10-20-2011, 06:43 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by 21 View Post
Why should Zuke return to Sweden? Just because Tortella doesn't like him?

It's a bit similar to Omark's situation in Edmonton. (Feels like it's only a matter of time before Omark is sent down.)

Both these guys still have good chances becoming good offensive NHL players, both of them offering some unreal skills. I don't want to see any of them in SEL yet. Hopefully both of them would prefer playing against the best players in the world in the NHL, not giving up their careers because their current coach doesn't like them.
On the bolded: this is what is so strange about this debate. There is no doubt that Zuccarello has skill. But unreal skill? If he does, I haven't seen it. And that's the rub. He isn't big enough for the NHL game. He isn't fast enough to make up for it in the NHL game. And he isn't skilled enough to make up for both of those deficiencies.

I want to make it 100% clear. This does not mean I think Zuccarello is without skill and it does not mean I think he's slow. This does not mean I think Zuccarello is without high-end skill. It means that I think his speed or his skill would have to be overwhelming and I don't think either or them are.

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10-20-2011, 07:23 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
On the bolded: this is what is so strange about this debate. There is no doubt that Zuccarello has skill. But unreal skill? If he does, I haven't seen it. And that's the rub. He isn't big enough for the NHL game. He isn't fast enough to make up for it in the NHL game. And he isn't skilled enough to make up for both of those deficiencies.
I would argue that you don't really have any way of knowing whether or not he isn't big enough or fast enough for the NHL game, because the way that the Rangers play isn't really the NHL game. The Rangers refuse to engage in NHL hockey, and thus, Zuccarello has never really been given a chance to show what he can do in the NHL game.

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10-20-2011, 07:35 PM
  #329
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I would argue that you don't really have any way of knowing whether or not he isn't big enough or fast enough for the NHL game, because the way that the Rangers play isn't really the NHL game. The Rangers refuse to engage in NHL hockey, and thus, Zuccarello has never really been given a chance to show what he can do in the NHL game.


You would be wrong. For one thing, your disagreement with the Rangers style is not the same as not playing an NHL game. Whether or not this team plays a system or style conducive to Zuccarello has no bearing on my evaluation. In the hockey moments that are the same no matter what style your team is playing, he shows this. His speed does not force defensemen back or widen gaps. Whether or not the Rangers play a certain style has no bearing on what we see when he's leading or participating in a rush up the ice. He does not have the size to win battles along the boards. Whether or not the Rangers play a certain style has no bearing on what we see when he gets the puck along the boards. He does not have the skill to overcome both. Whether or not the Rangers play a certain style has no bearing on what we see when the gaps are small and when he's getting knocked off the puck.

The Rangers style has little bearing on this conversation.

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10-20-2011, 07:46 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post


You would be wrong. For one thing, your disagreement with the Rangers style is not the same as not playing an NHL game. Whether or not this team plays a system or style conducive to Zuccarello has no bearing on my evaluation. In the hockey moments that are the same no matter what style your team is playing, he shows this. His speed does not force defensemen back or widen gaps. Whether or not the Rangers play a certain style has no bearing on what we see when he's leading or participating in a rush up the ice. He does not have the size to win battles along the boards. Whether or not the Rangers play a certain style has no bearing on what we see when he gets the puck along the boards. He does not have the skill to overcome both. Whether or not the Rangers play a certain style has no bearing on what we see when the gaps are small and when he's getting knocked off the puck.
Just because a team is wearing NHL jerseys and is skating on an NHL rink doesn't mean they are playing NHL hockey. Passing is the most important part of generating offense at any level of hockey, but at no level is it as integral as it is in the NHL level. Passing is the key to offense. There is no offense without passing, and the Rangers are a terrible passing team. They don't pass enough. They don't make enough of the right passes, and they don't make passes at the right times. Let's not even talk about the actual technique of some of the players. The way the Rangers play is a lot more like the way hockey is played at your local rink than it is the way hockey is played by the top teams in the NHL. Because the Rangers have a world class goaltender and excellent team defense (most of the time), they remain competitive and in games, thus masking just how awful they are offensively.

Him not being strong enough or big enough to win battles along the boards is only an issue because the Rangers "system" is based primarily on battles along the boards. It's their system that tends to create a lack of gap space, not Zuccarello. Gap space isn't created simply by the speed of players, but also by the passing that teams engage in when in the offensive zone. Passing gets the opposing team moving around, out of position, out of lanes, and creates space. The Rangers don't pass the puck enough, so they never have much space or time to work with. Why do you want a player like that battling for pucks along the boards much, anyway? That's not what he's on your roster to do. He's on your roster to provide something that the coach seems determined to make sure he can't.

And it isn't simply that this team doesn't play a style or system conducive to Zuccarello succeeding. It's that they play a style and system that isn't conducive to succeeding in the NHL, period.

Quote:
The Rangers style has little bearing on this conversation.
I couldn't disagree more. I'd say there isn't much that has more bearing on the conversation. How can you possibly judge a player when the team he plays on hinders his ability to be successful?

At the end of the day, this player, in his first season that featured multiple call ups and send downs, scored 23 points in 42 games on a terrible offensive team, constantly playing with a different set of linemates, none of whom were really ideal players for him to be on the ice with anyway.


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10-21-2011, 04:17 AM
  #331
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ill say it again, hes game style does not fit with the rangers style of play. hes not fast enough to develop offense off the rush. he's not big enough to play the board games we like to play, and he doesnt have a good enough shot to be a consistent power play threat. really all he has is passing ability and creativity. but, there is no time and space for him to do these things at this level. as soon as he touches the puck he just gets bowled over. in Europe you saw what he could do with a little more space, but thats moot because that space just isnt here.

he needs to play on a puck posession type of team that doesnt play that hard impact type game. Detroit would be great for him, as would Vancouver. But even then im not convinced he will do much. He just isnt big enough or fast enough. you need to either be big, or fast, or have a decent combination of both. when you are as small as him, you better be one of the fastest guys in the league A-la MSL. He's not. his speed is average to below average. That's not going to cut it.
That's a bit of a hit and miss though as the Rangers style of play is pretty sh!te and we all know it. Anyway from what I heard KHL is after him now. Cheerio

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10-21-2011, 04:54 AM
  #332
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i mean seriously, can you guys actually imagine...i mean even IMAGINE, MZA being able to pull off something like this:

Seen it several times in SEL, but then again,it`s SEL not NHL.
I belive in give the players some time and more chanses to gaine some coinfidens,but as the team work now,there is no room for him.
I don`t wont him to play Newberrys 4 and a half minutes with Rupp. So I cross my fingers for a trade to a weaker team with less depth on the wings.
I am sure he can make it on the right team. A team who like tic-tac-toe play

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10-21-2011, 05:04 AM
  #333
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You can draw a semi-analogy to the EPL, and football.

Aston Villa bought Jimmy Milner, Ash Young and Downing a few seasons ago. The fans expected a lot and the young lads didn't deliver right away, and people got on their backs. Yet the club and management gave them pitch time and patience, and 2 years later they are key players in the national side, while being sold for a combined sum of 60 Mill +.

Same can be said for great legendary coaches who had a rough bumpy start to their careers, but was given enough time to get their system going. You won't win anything, whether it's coaching, management, players, or whatever sport you watch, if you don't give young talented people enough time to gel.

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10-21-2011, 05:17 AM
  #334
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That's a bit of a hit and miss though as the Rangers style of play is pretty sh!te and we all know it. Anyway from what I heard KHL is after him now. Cheerio
Yes they are. And this is the team : Neftekhimik Nizhnekamsk

http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.php?team=196

As much as I want to see him in KHL, I hope he stays in NA for the year,so he don`t have to own the Rangers a year at a Entry Level two way deal. His dream is NHL hockey,but I think he could be much "bigger" in KHL


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10-21-2011, 07:11 AM
  #335
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First whalers game for him is today ?

anyone got a recomended free stream ?

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10-21-2011, 10:04 AM
  #336
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Newbury

I am by no means calling Newbury anything more than a 4th liner, but was anyone else impressed by him last night? The guy is good in the face-off circle, hits hard and likes to forecheck. He will drop the gloves to defend a teammate or himself and seems to fit in well with this system.

I would be 100% behind him staying with the team for the foreseeable future as the 4th line center. He and Rupp could some damage together out there.

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10-21-2011, 10:08 AM
  #337
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I am by no means calling Newbury anything more than a 4th liner, but was anyone else impressed by him last night? The guy is good in the face-off circle, hits hard and likes to forecheck. He will drop the gloves to defend a teammate or himself and seems to fit in well with this system.

I would be 100% behind him staying with the team for the foreseeable future as the 4th line center. He and Rupp could some damage together out there.
Exactly why I came in this thread...

Newbury has a lot of things to like and I think fits the role perfectly. The guy clearly plays with a lot of heart and the hitting is a huge plus. The fact that he's willing to drop the gloves is a nice bonus but Newbury doesn't have garbage hands either.

Torts likes guys who are gonna work hard like that. Even if he stays up as the 13th forward, I'm happy with that.

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10-21-2011, 10:11 AM
  #338
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Exactly why I came in this thread...

Newbury has a lot of things to like and I think fits the role perfectly. The guy clearly plays with a lot of heart and the hitting is a huge plus. The fact that he's willing to drop the gloves is a nice bonus but Newbury doesn't have garbage hands either.

Torts likes guys who are gonna work hard like that. Even if he stays up as the 13th forward, I'm happy with that.
Yeah he just brings so much to the table as a 4th liner that I don't see either Christensen or Wolski as a better fit in that role.

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10-21-2011, 10:17 AM
  #339
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I'd certainly ice Newburry ahead of Christensen on the 4th line. Don't have a problem with him being a fixture on that line at all.

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10-21-2011, 10:21 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I am by no means calling Newbury anything more than a 4th liner, but was anyone else impressed by him last night? The guy is good in the face-off circle, hits hard and likes to forecheck. He will drop the gloves to defend a teammate or himself and seems to fit in well with this system.

I would be 100% behind him staying with the team for the foreseeable future as the 4th line center. He and Rupp could some damage together out there.
Agreed. Only reason to keep EC in the lineup is for shootouts. And even there, he ****ed up his last chance.

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10-21-2011, 10:24 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I am by no means calling Newbury anything more than a 4th liner, but was anyone else impressed by him last night? The guy is good in the face-off circle, hits hard and likes to forecheck. He will drop the gloves to defend a teammate or himself and seems to fit in well with this system.

I would be 100% behind him staying with the team for the foreseeable future as the 4th line center. He and Rupp could some damage together out there.
He's not anything more than a 4th liner, but that's the point. MZA is NOT a 4th liner and to think he was going to be productive or noticable in that role was ridiculous. Having guys whose attributes are conducive to a 4th line role makes them seem more visible because that's the type of player that should be getting those limited minutes. A player that plays the way Newbury does is the exact type of person that should be on our 4th line, and it makes the team better as a whole.

And by no means does that mean Newbury is better than MZA, but for that role it's a no brainer.

It was the whole reason I was flabbergasted by this coach's initial choice of MZA over Avery, and Christensen over Avery, etc.

Hopefully Wolski doesn't end up there cause it'll be the same nonsense all over again.

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10-21-2011, 10:46 AM
  #342
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Newbury fits much better than EC and Zucc. If Zucc choose to leave NHL, I hope he goes back to Swedish Hockey

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10-21-2011, 10:57 AM
  #343
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I wasn't such a fan of Newbury last season, I thought he was slow and made some defensive lapses, but he's playing much better this year. He hits hard and sticks up for his teammates. He's the type of player we need on the 4th line.

I also noticed that Rupp started playing better once Newbury was on his line. He needs to play with grinders and forecheckers to play his game instead of EC and MZA. At some point, the Rangers are probably going to have to pick up or call up another 4th line type of player, because EC and Wolski aren't gonna cut it.

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10-21-2011, 11:01 AM
  #344
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Newbury fits much better than EC and Zucc. If Zucc choose to leave NHL, I hope he goes back to Swedish Hockey
I hope Zucc ends up on a puck possession team like Detroit. I think he could do wonders there. Just imagine a guy like Michael Nylander on this team. He wouldn't fit in. He was great for us when he could play the east-west cycle with Jagr and Straka, he would look terrible constantly grinding along the boards like we do now. I have to agree with what String wrote earlier, how the hell could Zuccarello be able to succeed under these circumstances, with this ice time, with those linemates, under this system? Impossible.

Newbury playing in the bottom 6 spot is a no-brainer, but I still hope Zucc gets traded rather quickly if he's not given a chance to succeed anyway. Crisp passing, what team needs that anyway, dumping and turning the puck over every time is so much simpler and safer.


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10-21-2011, 11:02 AM
  #345
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I'm a vehemently anti-torts, pro-Avery, pro-MZA fan.

With that said, Newbury has been a perfect fit so far. He gets in front and screens the goalie when he should, he is in the right spots defensively, he skates hard and finishes his checks.

And last night he made a very Avery-esque play that I wish more rangers would make. He's skating the puck to the opposing blue-line. There's no passing option and the D is standing up to him, so instead of doing the typical-ranger HARD dump in, he softly chips it to the corner in full stride and easily beats the defender to the puck to maintain possession. These smart dump-ins make such a huge difference in keeping momentum and creating more offensive zone time. The Pack line should take note.

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10-21-2011, 11:02 AM
  #346
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I wasn't such a fan of Newbury last season, I thought he was slow and made some defensive lapses, but he's playing much better this year. He hits hard and sticks up for his teammates. He's the type of player we need on the 4th line.

I also noticed that Rupp started playing better once Newbury was on his line. He needs to play with grinders and forecheckers to play his game instead of EC and MZA. At some point, the Rangers are probably going to have to pick up or call up another 4th line type of player, because EC and Wolski aren't gonna cut it.
Yep. It is interesting seeing players who like to play the same type of game have success together. Pack Line. Boyle Line with Fedotenko. Now a Rupp/Newbury combination that needs a RWer.

I have said his name before but Chris Neil would look great on that line.

The Richards line looks good with Stepan as well. He is upping his physical play this year.

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10-21-2011, 11:04 AM
  #347
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I wasn't such a fan of Newbury last season, I thought he was slow and made some defensive lapses, but he's playing much better this year. He hits hard and sticks up for his teammates. He's the type of player we need on the 4th line.

I also noticed that Rupp started playing better once Newbury was on his line. He needs to play with grinders and forecheckers to play his game instead of EC and MZA. At some point, the Rangers are probably going to have to pick up or call up another 4th line type of player, because EC and Wolski aren't gonna cut it.

My hope is that at the halfway point after guys like Hagelin or Borque have played some pro hockey in Hartford they get called up and EC gets sent down. I'm not worried about stagnating development with those guys really. I think being up here will benefit them and both can probably help on the PK as well.

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10-21-2011, 11:29 AM
  #348
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I hope Zucc ends up on a puck possession team like Detroit. I think he could do wonders there. Just imagine a guy like Michael Nylander on this team. He wouldn't fit in. He was great for us when he could play the east-west cycle with Jagr and Straka, he would look terrible constantly grinding along the boards like we do now. I have to agree with what String wrote earlier, how the hell could Zuccarello be able to succeed under these circumstances, with this ice time, with those linemates, under this system? Impossible.

Newbury playing in the bottom 6 spot is a no-brainer, but I still hope Zucc gets traded rather quickly if he's not given a chance to succeed anyway. Crisp passing, what team needs that anyway, dumping and turning the puck over every time is so much simpler and safer.
I agree, but now it is important for Zucc to get away from ahl as quickly as possible, and I fear that he may choose KHL.

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10-21-2011, 12:01 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
I'm a vehemently anti-torts, pro-Avery, pro-MZA fan.

With that said, Newbury has been a perfect fit so far. He gets in front and screens the goalie when he should, he is in the right spots defensively, he skates hard and finishes his checks.

And last night he made a very Avery-esque play that I wish more rangers would make. He's skating the puck to the opposing blue-line. There's no passing option and the D is standing up to him, so instead of doing the typical-ranger HARD dump in, he softly chips it to the corner in full stride and easily beats the defender to the puck to maintain possession. These smart dump-ins make such a huge difference in keeping momentum and creating more offensive zone time. The Pack line should take note.
Thats a fair assessment, and I agree. Im a big believer in a 4th line that knows and accepts it role - which is to usually play limited minutes and go out there to throw the body around. I like the Newbury/Rupp combination in that regard. What I dont like is inserting a square peg forward like Zuccarello, Wolski, or Christensen into that round hole. I think we actually both agree on that too.

So my question is, who do you want Zuccarello to unseat out of Richards, Gaborik, Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, Boyle, Fedotenko, and Prust - hopefully knowing that the last 3 forwards are closer to a 4th line than a 2nd line and are more complete players than MZA?

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10-21-2011, 12:04 PM
  #350
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Now a Rupp/Newbury combination that needs a RWer.
It would have been nice to see Weise on that line. That would be a tough in your face 4th line.

I think Neil would be wasted on our 4th line since he does deserve more playing time. Well.. at least this teams 4th line minutes. lol.

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