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Old
10-21-2011, 12:02 PM
  #26
mdm815
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Schenn played one game against the caps....let's give it some time before we try and figure out who should be this or that

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10-21-2011, 12:12 PM
  #27
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Maybe for 1 game, but let's talk back about this after 10 games or so.

Couturier is one of the top-3 so far in +/- and is in the top-8 pointwise.

But.....let's play him 4th line in the hope that the 3rd line starts clicking offensively.

I have all the respect for Schenn, but the hype is fading right now when we see what is going on the ice, and that is where it counts.

Also Couturier can play wing and I just don't see the use of playing him 4th line.
Schenn's first game was against Washington.

Couturier has played against ottawa, the bruins(who are not known for their offensive prowess), the kings(in a Richards return) and new jersey.

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10-21-2011, 12:14 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by chsb View Post
WHY?

Why do you see Couturier hitting a wall this season and Schenn not?
Couturier is more used to a lenghty gruelling and grinding season than Scehnn is.
He went to the Mem Cup at 16 YO.

Couturier also played with Hartnell so far and was never in the minus stat.
How come Schenn was -3 after 1 game playing with Hartnell?

You seem to have a crunch....I can respect it but give me logical reasons.

Couturier is NOT more "use" to a lengthy gruelling and grinding season than Schenn, the fact is that both have played about the same number of games over the past 3 seasons.

Couturier is just 18-years old and if you've ever watched an 18-year old in the NHL almost all of them hit a wall right around the 50-60 game mark. Schenn is 20 and more physically developed. Most 20-year olds are more mentaly resilient than most 18-year olds. Limiting BOTH players ice time will help to lessen or even prevent them hitting that perverbial "wall" that all rookies seem to hit.

Last, how is it so difficult for you to understand that +/- is a TERRBLE way to judge anybody ON JUST ONE GAME???? Do you think that Couturier has some jedi mind powers that would have prevented the deflections that beat Bryz last night when Schenn was on the ice???

Timonen and Voracek were minus players last night for the first time all season, should we blame THAT on Schenn too??? Giroux has been a plus player in just one of 6 games this season and he's been a minus in each of our last 3 games so does that mean he sucks and should be demoted????

Come on now, use your head and do more than just read a stat line.

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10-21-2011, 12:53 PM
  #29
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I think Laviolette made a mistake though in that he disrupted the chemistry that Couturier was developing with Read just so he could accommodate Schenn's entrance into the lineup.

As well, if veterans like Briere and Hartnell aren't playing well, it boggles me that a coach would try to increase their ice time to get them going. What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team and players who are playing well? "Well, you can play like crap, and you'll get rewarded by getting more ice time to play yourself out of your funk. And for those of you who are playing well, we're going to knock your ice time so that we can get those who are slumping back to working order."

I really hate that Schenn and Couturier play well, yet continue to get the shaft in terms of ice time because they aren't "veterans" and because they don't make as much money as others. It's clear that Hartnell and Briere are going to continue to get the benefit of the doubt. This is Hitchcock crap going on here......


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Old
10-21-2011, 01:08 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I think Laviolette made a mistake though in that he disrupted the chemistry that Couturier was developing with Read just so he could accommodate Schenn's entrance into the lineup.

As well, if veterans like Briere and Hartnell aren't playing well, it boggles me that a coach would try to increase their ice time to get them going. What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team and players who are playing well? "Well, you can play like crap, and you'll get rewarded by getting more ice time to play yourself out of your funk. And for those of you who are playing well, we're going to knock your ice time so that we can get those who are slumping back to working order."

I really hate the Schenn and Couturier play well, yet continue to get the shaft in terms of ice time because they aren't "veterans" and because they don't make as much money as others. It's clear that Hartnell and Briere are going to continue to get the benefit of the doubt. This is Hitchcock crap going on here......
Yeah I kind of agree. Lavy needs to get a little more sophisticated with how he puts together his lines. I mean Read and Couturier in an article talked about how they enjoyed playing on the same line and were gaining chemistry. They are becoming friends off the ice too. So Lavy ignores the basics of Chemistry and Sociology 101 and opts for Geology (rocks for jocks)!

Management accomodated Lavy with trading two cornerstone pieces which I happen to believe needed to be done for various reasons but now it's his turn to make it work one way or another. The players share responsibility but Lavy needs to push the right buttons this year..more than ever considering how crowded the bench is. Lots of players have some proving they want to do including Bob (big time with him considering he says he's on par with Bryz) so Lavy is going to have to be fair as much as possible and coach from the brain and not his gut a little more to say the least. Sadly he's not really wired like that but doesn't mean he can't adapt..he's going to have to. The rah rah stuff only goes so far and luckily he has some youth that will buy into that a little more and vets that want to buy into it but he's going to need to show a bit more IMO....

Maybe I'm setting too high a bar for Lavy but hey man we got a lot of talent that needs to be developed properly and we don't need him to be a poor "parent."

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Old
10-21-2011, 01:30 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What?

Schenn has played a full AHL season. Courturier hasn't..he's played between 58-68 games at a lower level. Schenn is going to be more prepared for a lengthy season.
Not true, Schenn has not come close to playing a full AHL season. He has only played a total of 11 games in the AHL over the last 2 seasons. Actually last year he played in only 54 games (not including the WJC) and only 15 of those games were in the NHL or AHL. Not sure how that would make him more prepared for a lengthy season? Not saying that I totally disagree, but your argument isn't correct.

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10-21-2011, 01:31 PM
  #32
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I think Philly needs another teardown. How can they sign Vokoun for 1.1M a year and Bryz costs us massive pain. This team cannot beat the capitals.

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10-21-2011, 01:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
I think Philly needs another teardown. How can they sign Vokoun for 1.1M a year and Bryz costs us massive pain. This team cannot beat the capitals.
1.5 million. I am sad by our reaction to one lose. God forbid our team doesnt go unbeaten in regualtion. There's gonna be games like this with such a young team, they need to learn from it and develop. Bryz is gonna have bad games or the team all around will have bad games, let's see how they come out in the next game.

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10-21-2011, 01:39 PM
  #34
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I think Mike Richards is to blame.

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Old
10-21-2011, 01:40 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
I think Philly needs another teardown. How can they sign Vokoun for 1.1M a year and Bryz costs us massive pain. This team cannot beat the capitals.
I don't think a tear down is required. There's still a boat load of talent in Philadelphia. The goaltending is superb, the defense is probably one of the best 1 through 6 in the league and the fact that we have essentially 11 forwards competing for the top nine is the kind of depth most teams dream of.

The problem that I see is that there's a degree of distrust in terms of using first year players in prominent roles and not having the right kind of veteran to fill a role (i.e. you would never catch Laviolette using Briere in a checking role, yet with the amount of ice time Couturier was given, there still seems to be a hint of uncertainty with regards to using a first year player as a checking center).

Another problem that I see is that management and coaching staff have their favourites who can do no wrong. Players need to earn their time. I've never been a fan of the notion that a veteran will always be given the benefit of the doubt because they've been there before. As we've seen with a guy like Hartnell, you just never know what you're going to get with him. He'll have games were he's brilliant, then he'll have games where he has immense brain farts, yet he still continues to get ice time. As an 11 year player, you'd think that he's finally figured out what he needs to do to be successful, yet he still does the same stupid things. People call him a warrior. Well, he's not a warrior - he's an idiot. It's clear his Hockey IQ is incredibly low and he's benefitted from playing with superior linemates that make him look better than what he really is. Personally, I'd love to see a guy like Nodl get put on the wing in Hartnell's spot and Hartnell having to earn and prove himself over again. If he can't, he's gone. That's the mentality that needs to take over.

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10-21-2011, 01:41 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
I think Philly needs another teardown. How can they sign Vokoun for 1.1M a year and Bryz costs us massive pain. This team cannot beat the capitals.
Im not sure to use or at this post..
Only the 6th game of the regular season bro.
In the words of mr freeze : Chill.
Also like the guy above me said Vokoun was 1.5m and we lost to the capitals. Big whoop.
When they show up in the playoffs against us, come talk to me.

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Old
10-21-2011, 01:45 PM
  #37
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Mike Richards IS a bad influence on Hartnell...they went out to dinner together when he was back in town and he left Hartnell still out there...

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10-21-2011, 01:46 PM
  #38
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I think Mike Richards is to blame.
That Jeff Carter guy too.

This board is hilarious at times. We went from the best team in the NHL to the worst in one game

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10-21-2011, 01:49 PM
  #39
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Yeah! Carter and Richards. We need to trade those guys. It worked for the first 3 games, it should work now.

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Old
10-21-2011, 02:22 PM
  #40
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IMO Lavi should go with the players who have had chemistry together and mix other pieces!

? -Giroux - ? ---> JVR has no chemistry with G IMO and Jagr don´t score goals so we can take him away for a test

Hartnell - Briere - ? ---> They have had a lot of Chemistry with HBL

? - Couturier - Read --> as mentioned earlier

Nödl - Talbot - ? ---> great play at 4th line!

That left Jagr, JVR, Simmonds, Voracek,



What about this lines:

Hartnell - Giroux - Briere ---> everyone has chemistry with Giroux so we might get going the two with him!

JVR - Schenn - Jagr --> 2 big and fast winger with the playmaking Schenn

Simmonds - Couturier - Read/Voracek ---> Hard working young line with lots of scoring potential and passing skills

Nödl - Talbot - Read/Voracek ----> 4th line

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Old
10-21-2011, 02:24 PM
  #41
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I thought that we played a good game for 40 minutes but the third was dreadful, start to finish. I think Briere and Jagr need to pick it up, they aren't doing that much offensively and we need their production. I would like to see Voracek and Jagr with Giroux for awhile, I think they need to get those 2 going and Giroux could get them going.
As for Bryz, I think he has played well, lastnight the majority of the goals were deflections or scrambles our D should be faulted for most. Our breakout leaves alot to be desired and our PP entry costs us alot of PP time. Hartnells play lastnight was terrible, he made a mistake, trying to do lots with little.
Our PK is steady to me and Couts is going to be good, I thought his minutes were more meaningful than Schenns as they should be at this point, but Schenn has better composure for sure. Simmonds is trying to do too much, clearing enjoying the extra ice time, he works so hard. We lose 1 game and the sky is falling, we have a big game against ST.L tomorrow and need to get it going.

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10-21-2011, 02:30 PM
  #42
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I haven't been able to watch all the games so far but I know faceoffs have been a problem. Has Couturier been taking them? If so how has he done? Also how did Schenn play?

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10-21-2011, 02:52 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by facts View Post
I thought that we played a good game for 40 minutes but the third was dreadful, start to finish. I think Briere and Jagr need to pick it up, they aren't doing that much offensively and we need their production. I would like to see Voracek and Jagr with Giroux for awhile, I think they need to get those 2 going and Giroux could get them going.
As for Bryz, I think he has played well, lastnight the majority of the goals were deflections or scrambles our D should be faulted for most. Our breakout leaves alot to be desired and our PP entry costs us alot of PP time. Hartnells play lastnight was terrible, he made a mistake, trying to do lots with little.
Our PK is steady to me and Couts is going to be good, I thought his minutes were more meaningful than Schenns as they should be at this point, but Schenn has better composure for sure. Simmonds is trying to do too much, clearing enjoying the extra ice time, he works so hard. We lose 1 game and the sky is falling, we have a big game against ST.L tomorrow and need to get it going.
I don't think the sky is falling. What clearly irritates me are the ongoing mistakes that veteran players make and continue to make. On top of it, I'm tired of seeing players who aren't playing well continually getting rewarded with more ice time while Laviolette plays conservative with the young guys like Schenn and Couturier. If those two are outplaying the veterans, then they should be rewarded with the ice time and have the vets sit and watch. I've always hated the environment of vets not having to earn their time because they've already been there.

There needs to be a cultural adjustment in Philadelphia. The locker room culture has changed, now it's time to change other facets in terms of on ice management.

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Old
10-21-2011, 03:32 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmanrulez View Post
IMO Lavi should go with the players who have had chemistry together and mix other pieces!

? -Giroux - ? ---> JVR has no chemistry with G IMO and Jagr don´t score goals so we can take him away for a test

Hartnell - Briere - ? ---> They have had a lot of Chemistry with HBL

? - Couturier - Read --> as mentioned earlier

Nödl - Talbot - ? ---> great play at 4th line!

That left Jagr, JVR, Simmonds, Voracek,



What about this lines:

Hartnell - Giroux - Briere ---> everyone has chemistry with Giroux so we might get going the two with him!

JVR - Schenn - Jagr --> 2 big and fast winger with the playmaking Schenn

Simmonds - Couturier - Read/Voracek ---> Hard working young line with lots of scoring potential and passing skills

Nödl - Talbot - Read/Voracek ----> 4th line
How about this:

Simmonds-Giroux-Jagr
Voracek-Schenn-Briere
JVR-Couturier-Read
Hartnell-Talbot-Nodl

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Old
10-21-2011, 03:34 PM
  #45
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My forward lines:
Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
JVR-G-Jake
All rookie line
Nodl-Talbot-Simmonds

Simmonds gets PP time and can get double shifted every once in a while to get about 15-16 min per. And finally the line that plays the best gets the more minutes even if it means the rookie line getting 17 a game every once in a while

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10-21-2011, 03:38 PM
  #46
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What?

Schenn has played a full AHL season. Courturier hasn't..he's played between 58-68 games at a lower level. Schenn is going to be more prepared for a lengthy season.
Schenn has not played a full AHL season. He just turned 20 this summer so this would be the first year he is eligible to play a full season in the AHL. He played 29 games in juniors, 7 in the AHL, and 9 in the NHL last season. I don't think he is much more prepared. He's also only a year older than Couturier.

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10-21-2011, 03:49 PM
  #47
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Schenn has not played a full AHL season. He just turned 20 this summer so this would be the first year he is eligible to play a full season in the AHL. He played 29 games in juniors, 7 in the AHL, and 9 in the NHL last season. I don't think he is much more prepared. He's also only a year older than Couturier.
Hm. I thought 19 was AHL age, and that he had played there last year. I could be thinking wrong.

If he hasn't done a full season in the AHL, then no, I don't think he's terribly prepared.

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10-21-2011, 03:53 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Couturier is NOT more "use" to a lengthy gruelling and grinding season than Schenn, the fact is that both have played about the same number of games over the past 3 seasons.

Couturier is just 18-years old and if you've ever watched an 18-year old in the NHL almost all of them hit a wall right around the 50-60 game mark. Schenn is 20 and more physically developed. Most 20-year olds are more mentaly resilient than most 18-year olds. Limiting BOTH players ice time will help to lessen or even prevent them hitting that perverbial "wall" that all rookies seem to hit.

Last, how is it so difficult for you to understand that +/- is a TERRBLE way to judge anybody ON JUST ONE GAME???? Do you think that Couturier has some jedi mind powers that would have prevented the deflections that beat Bryz last night when Schenn was on the ice???

Timonen and Voracek were minus players last night for the first time all season, should we blame THAT on Schenn too??? Giroux has been a plus player in just one of 6 games this season and he's been a minus in each of our last 3 games so does that mean he sucks and should be demoted????

Come on now, use your head and do more than just read a stat line.
Schenn is only a year older than Couturier (Aug 91 vs Dec 92) so I am not sure he is that much more mature physically and mentally.

I agree we can't judge Schenn on his -3 last night, but I do think Couturier is a better defensive forward and would be a better fit as third line C. Not that Schenn should be bumped to the 3rd line, but I would put him (or Briere) on the wing. The reason why LA sent him back last season was because they didn't think he was good enough defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schenn Couturier View Post
I haven't been able to watch all the games so far but I know faceoffs have been a problem. Has Couturier been taking them? If so how has he done? Also how did Schenn play?
Couturier has been taking them, but hasn't been very good. Last night was the first time he was above 50% (won 4 of 6).

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10-21-2011, 04:00 PM
  #49
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A lot of good and interesting points have been made on this thread, here are a few i am thinking about...I like Hartnell a lot when he is playing his physical type game and working hard out front, but i think he don't feel like he is part of the team and is just sort of a lame duck player waiting to be dealt, which no matter how much a player is making can really take the mo-jo away from a player mentally.I hate it for him and i hope things work out.

Lavy is playing around a little with the lines, team chemistry etc, but i think its not really a terrible thing for him to do early on this year, because he has so many new pieces and he and the other coaches need to figure out where in the puzzle they fit best.

Briere does look a little lost, but he has had his good scoring chances as has JVR and Jagr, but they are just not going in for them at the moment.

We had 40+shots on goal last night ? but ours just were not deflected like the Caps shots were...The score sometimes don't reflect how a game really went at times....We had plenty of chances to score, just didn't get the good bounces which happens in hockey.

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10-21-2011, 04:02 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Hm. I thought 19 was AHL age, and that he had played there last year. I could be thinking wrong.

If he hasn't done a full season in the AHL, then no, I don't think he's terribly prepared.
It's 20 years old or 4 years in juniors to be eligible for the AHL. Last season was Schenn's 4th year in juniors and he turned 20 in August. He just played 7 in the AHL when his junior season was finished.

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