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Old
10-21-2011, 08:54 PM
  #76
Schooner Guy
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Originally Posted by BeerHell View Post
They didn't tank they had a bad season, they were way to good to finish where they did...
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Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
So trading your best player (Forsberg), for prospects is not considered tanking

Please enlightment me with your definition of tanking.
They traded Forsberg shortly before the trade deadline when they were a kazillion points out of a playoff spot. That was not a tank....that's called being a deadline seller. They had a team with some since-retired slow footed Dmen who struggled greatly in the New NHL and took up significant cap space.

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10-21-2011, 08:59 PM
  #77
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How about Philly, they have money and tanked and ended up with JVR.
You just gave the perfect example of why tanking and being rewarded a high draft pick isn't worth it. JVR is ok but would not really change much on his own.

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Old
10-21-2011, 09:10 PM
  #78
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You just gave the perfect example of why tanking and being rewarded a high draft pick isn't worth it. JVR is ok but would not really change much on his own.
What if it happened in 04. They would've ended up with Malkin.

This year is a year where tanking will be rewarded with a franchise player.

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Old
10-21-2011, 09:16 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
What if it happened in 04. They would've ended up with Malkin.

This year is a year where tanking will be rewarded with a franchise player.
There is absolutely no way of knowing that at the draft itself, let alone a year ahead of time.

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Old
10-21-2011, 09:16 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
What if it happened in 04. They would've ended up with Malkin.

This year is a year where tanking will be rewarded with a franchise player.
So if we tank we will not be alone to do so. But, this year, we have the dual advantage of those competitors being after different players. We would be after Grigorenko, the Sens are reportedly after Yakupov, yet another team want Forsberg or a D-man...

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Old
10-21-2011, 09:22 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
What if it happened in 04. They would've ended up with Malkin.

This year is a year where tanking will be rewarded with a franchise player.
What if they had the 3rd pick in the same draft?

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Old
10-21-2011, 09:33 PM
  #82
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What if they had the 3rd pick in the same draft?
Cam Barker, who can barely crack Edmonton's lineup these days. The year after, Jack Johnson whose a poor 2nd unit defenseman (doesn't play defense well and notorious lack of hockey IQ).

In 2007 the 3rd pick yielded Kyle Turris who still hasn't established himself in the NHL.

2008 3rd was Bogosian, who hasn't been all that impressive in Atlanta/Winnipeg to date.

The 3rd overall pick doesn't have a history of being a surefire talent.

Top 5 draft picks hold a mystique on this board out of proportion to their true value on this board due to how infrequently Montreal has had them. The truth is that it takes years of sucking to re-coup sufficient talent to even get back into the playoffs, let alone compete.

A tank job in Montreal wouldn't be the one year dip that some are selling here. Once you commit to being that bad there's no going back and you're stuck at the bottom for a few years.

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10-21-2011, 09:40 PM
  #83
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Management change first, see how the team adapts to a new coach and then see if a big trade would be necessary..Martin is...not the best option?

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Old
10-21-2011, 10:04 PM
  #84
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I wonder, just how patient people would be for a tank??
I have no doubt the Habs would survive one, even if it took 20years. The Habs will never lose their hockey team.
But, what if the Habs would put on a show similar to yesterday's game over the course of a couple of season? I'm as big a fan as anybody. I'm more than just a Habs fan actually, I can eat hockey for breakfast, lunch and diner, I'm just a fan of the sport.
I'm not sure I would continue to go out of my way to watch the Habs play. I would not stay up to watch the games on my recorder late after work when I have to wake up in 4 hours to go to work. I would not organize my plans around the hockey game. If this is true for me, then I'm sure it must also be true for many, many others.

The idea of a successful tank is very interesting. Load up on picks, draft a couple of superstars, win a cup in a few years and possibly start a modern day dynasty.
But how fun would it be to be like the Islanders and make the POs 4 times out of 16 years (all first round exists) ?? Or the Blue Jackets and make it once out of 10 years?
Just how packed would the Bell Center be if yesterday's spectacle was our typical game night??

I'm not so sure tanking is a good idea.

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Old
10-21-2011, 10:14 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I wonder, just how patient people would be for a tank??
I have no doubt the Habs would survive one, even if it took 20years. The Habs will never lose their hockey team.
But, what if the Habs would put on a show similar to yesterday's game over the course of a couple of season? I'm as big a fan as anybody. I'm more than just a Habs fan actually, I can eat hockey for breakfast, lunch and diner, I'm just a fan of the sport.
I'm not sure I would continue to go out of my way to watch the Habs play. I would not stay up to watch the games on my recorder late after work when I have to wake up in 4 hours to go to work. I would not organize my plans around the hockey game. If this is true for me, then I'm sure it must also be true for many, many others.

The idea of a successful tank is very interesting. Load up on picks, draft a couple of superstars, win a cup in a few years and possibly start a modern day dynasty.
But how fun would it be to be like the Islanders and make the POs 4 times out of 16 years (all first round exists) ?? Or the Blue Jackets and make it once out of 10 years?
Just how packed would the Bell Center be if yesterday's spectacle was our typical game night??

I'm not so sure tanking is a good idea.
If you're going to cite a rebuilding team then use an example (Washington) where the club actually tried one.

The Islanders of 15 years ago were not a rebuild. They never rebuilt. If anything, they are the classic example on why rebuilding makes sense.

They had picks and prospects that became: Luongo, Redden, Chara, Bertuzzi, McCabe, Spezza, Jokinen etc... Certainly that's the core of a contending team but they threw it all away. They did the opposite of rebuilding and traded for quick fixes that they thought would get them to 8th spot and in the playoffs. The Leafs did the same thing. You seem to think that finishing low in the standings = rebuild. It doesn't. Those clubs did the opposite of rebuilding and paid the price by giving away prospects and building their core that way and missing the playoffs for several years. And unfortunately we have started taking a page out of that book and it's netted us a mediocre core and dealing away a promising young blueliner who's going to make us look silly for the next decade or so.

The were not a rebuilding club and we are nowhere near the situation that they were in 15 years ago. Its only recently that the Isles started from zero and actually hanging on to their picks. As late as 2007 they had given away their first two round picks. Now they've started actually drafting and holding onto their picks - low and behold it's landed them John Tavares and a couple of other top 5s who will break into the NHL in the next few years and the Isles are already a dark horse to actually make the playoffs this season.

And unlike them, we wouldn't be starting from ground zero. We already have a good young group of players to start building around with Price, Subban, MaxPac, Gorges, Eller etc... These guys are already playing in the NHL and their best years are ahead of them. I don't think our rebuild would take all that long. If we traded for picks and prospects we could have a good up and coming core in a couple of years.

And the fans wouldn't go anywhere. We've had 15 years of mediocrity, if they were going to leave and lose interest it would've happened long ago.


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Old
10-21-2011, 10:22 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The Islanders of 15 years ago were not a rebuild. They never rebuilt. If anything, they are the classic example on why rebuilding makes sense.

They had picks and prospects that became: Luongo, Redden, Chara, Bertuzzi, McCabe, Spezza, Jokinen etc... Certainly that's the core of a contending team but they threw it all away. The did the opposite of rebuilding and traded for quick fixes that they thought would get them to 8th spot and in the playoffs. The Leafs did the same thing. You seem to think that finishing low in the standings = rebuild. It doesn't.

The were not a rebuilding club and we are nowhere near the situation that they were in 15 years ago. Its only recently that the Isles started from zero and actually hanging on to their picks - low and behold it's landed them John Tavares and they are a dark horse to actually make the playoffs this season.

We wouldn't be starting from ground zero. We already have a good young group of players to start building around with Price, Subban, MaxPac, Gorges, Eller etc... These guys are already playing in the NHL and their best years are ahead of them. I don't think our rebuild would take all that long. If we traded for picks and prospects we could have a good up and coming core in a couple of years.

And the fans wouldn't go anywhere. We've had 15 years of mediocrity, if they were going to leave and lose interest it would've happened long ago.
Trade assets for picks and prospects, then turn those picks into good players. Check.
But let Gauthier anywhere near that process? no way.

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Old
10-21-2011, 10:34 PM
  #87
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Trade players in order to tank even more. Get Yakupov and Galchenyuk 1-2.

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Old
10-21-2011, 10:44 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We wouldn't be starting from ground zero. We already have a good young group of players to start building around with Price, Subban, MaxPac, Gorges, Eller etc... These guys are already playing in the NHL and their best years are ahead of them. I don't think our rebuild would take all that long. If we traded for picks and prospects we could have a good up and coming core in a couple of years.

And the fans wouldn't go anywhere. We've had 15 years of mediocrity, if they were going to leave and lose interest it would've happened long ago.
What makes you think Price, PK, Gorges, Eller, MaxPAc, etc, would all remain here?
Sure, you don't think it would take that long, that doesn't mean there isn't the risk that it actually would take longer. So, no offense, but you telling me you don't feel like it wouldn't take that long means absolutely nothing. It doesn't diminish the risk, at all.
As you just mentioned, we already have a good group of youngsters, without even talking about our younger prospects, so wouldn't you say that the proper route might actually be to change the guys surrounding those players? And by that, I mean immediate change, not through the draft where you're likely to wait for at least 2-3years before seeing your pick see NHL time.
If you go through the draft route, the most ideal of all scenarios, you draft Crosby-Malkin like players in back to back years. This would mean winning the draft lotto in back to back years on amazing draft years. Still, we would need 2-3years before seeing any results, and even then, it might take an extra year. That's the best case scenario.

As for our fans, ya, they didn't leave these past 15 years, but we never tanked either. I think expecting management to tank, improving, building into a contender in just a few years, without losing any fans or money in the process, is being very very optimistic. I always like to approach a situation looking at the worst possible scenario, not the greatest.

As for the Islanders, I said they missed they made the POs in 16 years, and I said the Blue Jackets made them once in ten. I didn't say these teams have been rebuilding since then. They have been rebuilding for a while though. It certainly hasn't been the story of a couple years.

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Old
10-21-2011, 11:00 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Cam Barker, who can barely crack Edmonton's lineup these days. The year after, Jack Johnson whose a poor 2nd unit defenseman (doesn't play defense well and notorious lack of hockey IQ).

In 2007 the 3rd pick yielded Kyle Turris who still hasn't established himself in the NHL.

2008 3rd was Bogosian, who hasn't been all that impressive in Atlanta/Winnipeg to date.

The 3rd overall pick doesn't have a history of being a surefire talent.

Top 5 draft picks hold a mystique on this board out of proportion to their true value on this board due to how infrequently Montreal has had them. The truth is that it takes years of sucking to re-coup sufficient talent to even get back into the playoffs, let alone compete.

A tank job in Montreal wouldn't be the one year dip that some are selling here. Once you commit to being that bad there's no going back and you're stuck at the bottom for a few years.
Its way too soon to know how good those players will be. Turris is only 22 years old and you're going to write him off?

As for top five picks being overrated, you're way wrong on this one. Seventieslord (stats guru and mod over in the hockey history section) compiled a list of drafted players and actually calculated (Using HF scale) the number of superstars that have been drafted from 1970-2000 and compared draft position.

With a top 5 pick you have a 23 percent chance at a superstar. That's SUPERSTAR, not good player like say a Kirk Muller, we're talking HOF type player. If you have only 3 top five picks your odds are over 50% that you'll get one. Your odds of getting a 2nd line or 2nd pairing player or better, your odds are 70%.

Conversely if you have a pick in the 11-30th slot your odds of finding a superstar fall to a meagre 3.4 percent. Even if you had TEN picks in the 11-30 slots you still have a 71% chance that you still won't find a superstar. And if your goal is to get a good 2nd line player then your odds in the 11-30 range is about 25%.

You want a full time player who plays maybe 5 seasons of hockey? You have a 92% chance that you'll get one if you draft top five. You've got a 60% chance if you have a pick from 11-30.

So you have about 7 times the chance of finding a superstar from a pool that is 1/6th the size of the 2nd group. And that's just comparing it to 1st rounders. Once you get outside the top 30, those superstars become exceedingly rare.

The draft is extremely linear and there is a huge, huge difference between top five picks and the rest of the draft.

BTW, odds of finding a superstar outside the 1st round? 0.4%.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Trade assets for picks and prospects, then turn those picks into good players. Check.
But let Gauthier anywhere near that process? no way.
It won't matter, we won't rebuild and I'm pretty sure we'll turn it around and make the playoffs this year. There's no way we're this bad. I still think we're a postseason team.

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Old
10-21-2011, 11:09 PM
  #90
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How about a third option of get healthy and play better?

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10-21-2011, 11:10 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What makes you think Price, PK, Gorges, Eller, MaxPAc, etc, would all remain here?
Well, they are RFA for a few years again.. I guess it's the right time to do it.

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10-21-2011, 11:14 PM
  #92
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What makes you think Price, PK, Gorges, Eller, MaxPAc, etc, would all remain here?
What makes you think they wouldn't? Most of those guys are RFA.

And there's no way they'd leave if they saw us bringing in top talent. These guys are all young, it's not like we're talking about Thomas Vokoun who's looking for a final shot at the cup.
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Sure, you don't think it would take that long, that doesn't mean there isn't the risk that it actually would take longer. So, no offense, but you telling me you don't feel like it wouldn't take that long means absolutely nothing. It doesn't diminish the risk, at all.
As you just mentioned, we already have a good group of youngsters, without even talking about our younger prospects, so wouldn't you say that the proper route might actually be to change the guys surrounding those players? And by that, I mean immediate change, not through the draft where you're likely to wait for at least 2-3years before seeing your pick see NHL time.
We've tried to do it the other way and we've spent 15+ years spinning our wheels. I'm sorry but I think the rebuilding way is the way to go. And we should've done this three years ago.

We're missing top end talent, we've been missing this forever. And until we actually get top end talent, we're not likely to win a cup. We've tried it the other way and it's not working. And it's also not surprising that it's not working.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If you go through the draft route, the most ideal of all scenarios, you draft Crosby-Malkin like players in back to back years. This would mean winning the draft lotto in back to back years on amazing draft years. Still, we would need 2-3years before seeing any results, and even then, it might take an extra year. That's the best case scenario.
We're not going to draft Crosby. But if we draft top five or trade for prospects we might get an up and coming star.

And we already have Price and Subban. MaxPac looks promising too. We're already part way there. That's the great thing about our situation right now, we're not starting from zero like Pittsburgh did. You start adding in strong young players and our future looks great. Imagine if we had a superstar center to go with that... how much better do you think our chances would be to win a cup? It would make a huge, huge difference. And superstars make their teammates better too.
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As for our fans, ya, they didn't leave these past 15 years, but we never tanked either. I think expecting management to tank, improving, building into a contender in just a few years, without losing any fans or money in the process, is being very very optimistic. I always like to approach a situation looking at the worst possible scenario, not the greatest.
They aren't going anywhere. If they were going to leave it would've happened long ago. If you don't think so, we'll just disagree here.
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As for the Islanders, I said they missed they made the POs in 16 years, and I said the Blue Jackets made them once in ten. I didn't say these teams have been rebuilding since then. They have been rebuilding for a while though. It certainly hasn't been the story of a couple years.
Look, the southern belt teams don't have near the resources that we do. We have arguably the best scouting in the league. We are one of the few clubs that can consistently draft good players in the later rounds. What we lack (and what we've always lacked) is the top end talent to separate us from the pack. We're great at drafting good but not great players and that's why we always have good but not great teams.

We already have a decent core there. We aren't starting from zero and I believe that if actually given a chance they our scouts can find great prospects with higher picks or trading for prospects. We should be exploiting our scouts far more than we do.

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10-21-2011, 11:20 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What makes you think Price, PK, Gorges, Eller, MaxPAc, etc, would all remain here?
Sure, you don't think it would take that long, that doesn't mean there isn't the risk that it actually would take longer. So, no offense, but you telling me you don't feel like it wouldn't take that long means absolutely nothing. It doesn't diminish the risk, at all.
As you just mentioned, we already have a good group of youngsters, without even talking about our younger prospects, so wouldn't you say that the proper route might actually be to change the guys surrounding those players? And by that, I mean immediate change, not through the draft where you're likely to wait for at least 2-3years before seeing your pick see NHL time.

[/I]
If you go through the draft route, the most ideal of all scenarios, you draft Crosby-Malkin like players in back to back years. This would mean winning the draft lotto in back to back years on amazing draft years. Still, we would need 2-3years before seeing any results, and even then, it might take an extra year. That's the best case scenario.

As for our fans, ya, they didn't leave these past 15 years, but we never tanked either. I think expecting management to tank, improving, building into a contender in just a few years, without losing any fans or money in the process, is being very very optimistic. I always like to approach a situation looking at the worst possible scenario, not the greatest.

As for the Islanders, I said they missed they made the POs in 16 years, and I said the Blue Jackets made them once in ten. I didn't say these teams have been rebuilding since then. They have been rebuilding for a while though. It certainly hasn't been the story of a couple years.
Good post. I have been saying for a while now that we have a cup window the next three years. Now is not the time to tank.

Price, Subby and Max are core. We need to win in the next three years with them. They might all be gone in 3-5 years.

What we do need to do is consider Martin's position after Christmas. If this slide keeps going, it will not be because the Habs are that bad, it will be because the players will not play for Martin. We will have to address that and find a coach who can get these guys to perform the next three years, our window.

We also need to provide just a little more support to our young core. That means:

1. A bruising, 15 goal big 3rd line center next year, when Eller takes Gomer's job. And Eller will. Gomer has to be gone next year, we need his money to make improvements for our cup window. You are going to see me write this all the time this year.

2. A tough nasty 4th line wing to play with White and perhaps Shultz/Conboy. This will address the toughness issue.

3. A big, clear the crease and protect Price Dman UFA.

Tanking? Get real. We are very close, and we need to fill the three positions above, that's all. And we can do this.

The key to the plan is dumping Gomer's salary, and you bet your ass PG knows this. I have great hope for next year, and I think we will do OK this year. The young guys are learning what adversity is.

I'm especially excited about Diaz and Emelin. These two young guys give us many options.

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10-21-2011, 11:26 PM
  #94
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Good post. I have been saying for a while now that we have a cup window the next three years. Now is not the time to tank.
What makes you say this?

We've got some decent young players to build around but I don't see a cup calibre team there. You're talking like we need a better 3rd & 4th line to win... that's not the case. We need top talent, we've always needed top talent. Our 1st line isn't great and we're consistently in the bottom third of league scoring. Yes, Price and Subban look great and they could be a part of a cup winning core but we need to get great players to support them no 3rd and 4th line support guys.

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10-21-2011, 11:44 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What makes you say this?

We've got some decent young players to build around but I don't see a cup calibre team there. You're talking like we need a better 3rd & 4th line to win... that's not the case. We need top talent, we've always needed top talent. Our 1st line isn't great and we're consistently in the bottom third of league scoring. Yes, Price and Subban look great and they could be a part of a cup winning core but we need to get great players to support them no 3rd and 4th line support guys.
You know I generally agree with your thinking.You are correct, nothing is guaranteed of course.

You also know that I agree with you that a game breaker top three would be key, but I do not see us getting one the next three years.

But I still believe, barring catastrophic injuries, that we have a window, and PG should act on this at the deadline and next summer.

If I felt there was no window, I would agree with a rebuild. But there is a window in my opinion, and we should make the right moves this year to optimize this window.

Toasting Gomer at the end of this season is key to this strategy. It is the first and most important step.

If the Habs do not take the actions this year as I have suggested, then next year I will be supporting a full rebuild. Which is terrible, as we will be wasting Price, Subby and Max during the process.

When I put it that way, you must agree that taking action now, and not rebuilding, is the way to go, no?

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10-22-2011, 12:14 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
You know I generally agree with your thinking.You are correct, nothing is guaranteed of course.

You also know that I agree with you that a game breaker top three would be key, but I do not see us getting one the next three years.

But I still believe, barring catastrophic injuries, that we have a window, and PG should act on this at the deadline and next summer.

If I felt there was no window, I would agree with a rebuild. But there is a window in my opinion, and we should make the right moves this year to optimize this window.

Toasting Gomer at the end of this season is key to this strategy. It is the first and most important step.

If the Habs do not take the actions this year as I have suggested, then next year I will be supporting a full rebuild. Which is terrible, as we will be wasting Price, Subby and Max during the process.

When I put it that way, you must agree that taking action now, and not rebuilding, is the way to go, no?
How do you expect to get a top end 1st liner without a rebuild? Do you think we'll be contenders without one?

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Old
10-22-2011, 12:19 AM
  #97
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Tanking, get real. Unless we unload about 3 or 4 of our top players it ain`t gonna happen. We are not in the position to tank, you have to have a crappy team, we are not crappy. people need to grow up, stop panicking, too many games left.

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Old
10-22-2011, 12:34 AM
  #98
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Trade Gomez please.

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Old
10-22-2011, 12:38 AM
  #99
Schooner Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
How about a third option of get healthy and play better?
That's just way too logical of a post to be on this board during a losing streak!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammy d View Post
Tanking, get real. Unless we unload about 3 or 4 of our top players it ain`t gonna happen. We are not in the position to tank, you have to have a crappy team, we are not crappy. people need to grow up, stop panicking, too many games left.
You have to remember something. Most of the posters on this board have never played a sport at a competitive level and therefore don't understand anything about the human element to a hockey organization or anything about pride and competition. A tank would send the wrong message to the Subbans, Prices, Patches, Ellers of the team and would also send the wrong message to any potential UFAs out there. It wouldn't be worth the setbacks.

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Old
10-22-2011, 01:14 AM
  #100
Sundinftw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Trade Gomez please.
Who is gonna take gomez?

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