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Big Trade or Tanking ?

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Old
10-22-2011, 01:20 AM
  #101
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What makes you think they wouldn't? Most of those guys are RFA.

And there's no way they'd leave if they saw us bringing in top talent. These guys are all young, it's not like we're talking about Thomas Vokoun who's looking for a final shot at the cup.

We've tried to do it the other way and we've spent 15+ years spinning our wheels. I'm sorry but I think the rebuilding way is the way to go. And we should've done this three years ago.

We're missing top end talent, we've been missing this forever. And until we actually get top end talent, we're not likely to win a cup. We've tried it the other way and it's not working. And it's also not surprising that it's not working.

We're not going to draft Crosby. But if we draft top five or trade for prospects we might get an up and coming star.

And we already have Price and Subban. MaxPac looks promising too. We're already part way there. That's the great thing about our situation right now, we're not starting from zero like Pittsburgh did. You start adding in strong young players and our future looks great. Imagine if we had a superstar center to go with that... how much better do you think our chances would be to win a cup? It would make a huge, huge difference. And superstars make their teammates better too.

They aren't going anywhere. If they were going to leave it would've happened long ago. If you don't think so, we'll just disagree here.

Look, the southern belt teams don't have near the resources that we do. We have arguably the best scouting in the league. We are one of the few clubs that can consistently draft good players in the later rounds. What we lack (and what we've always lacked) is the top end talent to separate us from the pack. We're great at drafting good but not great players and that's why we always have good but not great teams.

We already have a decent core there. We aren't starting from zero and I believe that if actually given a chance they our scouts can find great prospects with higher picks or trading for prospects. We should be exploiting our scouts far more than we do.
I won't go into a multiquote debate because I know it'll just go around and we'll have page long posts

I think you should actually read your post but look at it differently.
You say they are RFAs, yes, but what makes you think they'll want to re-sign for multiples years passed their UFA time?
You ask why would they even want to leave especially if they see us bringing in top talent, well, if you want to bring in top talent through the draft, it means multiple years of tanking + lucking out on a good draft year.
If it's through trades and signings, then we're not talking about tanking.

You talk about drafting top 5 and trade for prospects. Who would you trade for prospects? Trust me, I'm on board with this idea of trading some of our guys for top prospects, I just don't think it's doable. I don't think there's many teams calling PG for Gionta. Maybe Cammy, but I'm not they'd be willing to part ways with top prospects for him, not at his cap hit. Plekanec and Gorges are the only two guys that have good value (not counting Price, PK, MaxPac as we'd want them as our core). I would have no problem entertaining some offers for them, but I have a hard time believing we'd be getting the better part of a deal involving them.

And yes, it would certainly be great if we could get a superstar center out of tanking, but nothing guarantees it. If you told me that within 5 years, we are a sure contender for many years to come, then hey, sign me up. Problem is you can't deliver such a promise or guarantee. So it all sounds good with the happy ending, like a fairy tale, but reality isn't always as pretty.

As for the fans, I think it's highly unrealistic to believe the Bell Center would still be packed every night and that the Habs fever around the city would remain the same. It's already noticeable that the craze dropped a bit last year, and it feels the same this year. Now apparently there was plenty of empty seats so far this year, and not every game has yet to be sold out like in previous years. At the end of the day, hockey is a spectacle. If the entertainment is bad, people will stop watching. If the habs were more of what we saw last game, I can tell you I would eventually stop as well, and I'm as big a fan as anybody else. I'm not saying I wouldn't come back running once the habs become entertaining again, but to expect no drop in sales of tickets and merchandise while in a rebuild isn't quite realistic.

As I said, you seem to approach the Tanking idea by looking at the very best scenario, getting superstar center, drafting top 5, trading for good prospects, rebuild to be very short, no losses in terms of fans. Sorry, but I don't believe that everything would be as perfect as you make it sound.


Last edited by Kriss E: 10-22-2011 at 07:50 AM.
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Old
10-22-2011, 06:58 AM
  #102
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You guys are fine, tomorrow will be your comeback.
LMAO. One 6-2 blowout loss and it's back to reality.

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Old
10-22-2011, 07:25 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
How about a third option of get healthy and play better?
No No that's not for the bandwagoners. WE MUST TANK !

And will you stop trying to make sense here please.

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Old
10-22-2011, 07:38 AM
  #104
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I don't think that naturally tanking is not possible, neither a possibility, but no team in it' rigth mine would do it purpously. Now the question isbwho do you trade at the deadline? To be honest Ak is the only wothy ufa, cammy? Markov if healthy? Not sure we benefit from that on the long run...

What is missing to this team is a PP and some emotion, i would call this Markov and White!

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Old
10-22-2011, 08:22 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
I have been saying for a while now that we have a cup window the next three years. Now is not the time to tank.

Price, Subby and Max are core. We need to win in the next three years with them. They might all be gone in 3-5 years.
Ouch... I really don't know where you're getting this 'three year window' idea from. Compare our core to other team's core.

Montreal
G --> Price
D --> Subban - Markov (injured)
F --> Pacioretty - Cammalleri

Pittsburgh
G --> Fleury
D --> Letang
F --> Malkin - Crosby (*Not mentioning Neal)

Philadelphia
G --> Bryzgalov
D --> Pronger - Carle (So what Pronger is old, the guy is still part of the elite in the league)
F --> Giroux - Briere

Buffalo
G --> Miller
D --> Myers - Ehrhoff
F --> Vanek - Roy

Chicago
G --> Crawford
D --> Keith - Seabrook
F --> Toews - Kane

Los Angeles
G --> Quick
D --> Doughty
F --> Kopitar - Brown


Just a reminder, this is all based on me and my thinking.
I'd like to believe our core is as good as the other team's cores I've written here, but it really is not. We have a great goalie, but we're lacking on defense AND on offense. Markov's injury really hurts us, but still, core for core, ours isn't the the best. Adding to this our inefficient fourth line, young trio of D, and a couple of players slumbering, we got our present situation. Last.


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Old
10-22-2011, 08:47 AM
  #106
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Don't think the Habs will fire Martin this early, but wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of change if things don't get straightened out soon!

Some teams like Columbus, Winnipeg, Calgary, Nashville and San Jose are having slow starts too...maybe some potential trading partners?

Feaster in Calgary has said he has already talked trade to some GMs, so there is talk right now.

I know Gomez is a hard contract to trade, but Iginla has never had that top playmaking centre for him, and Gommer could be that option.

A Gomez for Stajan deal could be an option to start with more to be built around, maybe Bourque coming too with Montreal also sending a Desharnais type of player and salary to make the deal work for both teams caps?

Habs would be sending $8.2 million and taking $6.8 back. Deal would still allow Calgary to be half a million under the cap.

Habs would get two bigger players, a 2nd-3rd line centre in Stajan who can play a two way game and big winger in Bourque who could play the top 6-9 too.

Gomez cap hit over the next two years is attractive too.

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Cole
Pacioretty - Eller - Gionta
Bourque - Stajan - Kostitsyn
Moen - Engqvist - Darche

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Old
10-22-2011, 09:00 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
I know Gomez is a hard contract to trade, but Iginla has never had that top playmaking centre for him, and Gommer could be that option.

A Gomez for Stajan deal could be an option to start with more to be built around, maybe Bourque coming too with Montreal also sending a Desharnais type of player and salary to make the deal work for both teams caps?

Habs would be sending $8.2 million and taking $6.8 back. Deal would still allow Calgary to be half a million under the cap.

Now get serious please...
1. NOBODY wants Gomez
2. Gomez + Desharnais = Stajan + Bourque... Only possible in NHL12... and then again, I'm not even sure. Game would crash and CD would explode.

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Old
10-22-2011, 09:02 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
How do you expect to get a top end 1st liner without a rebuild? Do you think we'll be contenders without one?
LG read my post again, I think you rushed it. I said that we will likely NOT get a top 3 game changer in the next 3 years, but that we still have a cup window.

Yes it's true, and you know I agree with you on this, a top 3 game changer would bring us much closer to the cup, but it's not going to happen soon. Therefore let's do everything we can the next 3-4 years to win a cup without one. It may be possible.

In essence, I'm saying that we are too good to tank right now, so let's shoot for the cup. Bad odds, but we should try.

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10-22-2011, 09:11 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by PhysicX View Post

Now get serious please...
1. NOBODY wants Gomez
2. Gomez + Desharnais = Stajan + Bourque... Only possible in NHL12... and then again, I'm not even sure. Game would crash and CD would explode.
Flames want to trade Stajan, there is no secret he has fallen into the dog house and his contract length is one they would like to get rid of. Gomez maybe unattractive right now, but playing with Tanguay and Iginla would really help him, if not Iggy too. His contract looks better the next two years over this year.

Habs could send another prospect or pick, but this trade is a change of scenery for some players and the shifting of some lengthy contracts too.

This isn't your "NHL12" type of deal, this is a Pouliot for Latendresse type of deal, a trade two teams are trying to make to better their teams by trading players that need a change.

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Old
10-22-2011, 09:11 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by PhysicX View Post
Ouch... I really don't know where you're getting this 'three year window' idea from. Compare our core to other team's core.

Montreal
G --> Price
D --> Subban - Markov (injured)
F --> Pacioretty - Cammalleri

Pittsburgh
G --> Fleury
D --> Letang
F --> Malkin - Crosby (*Not mentioning Neal)

Philadelphia
G --> Bryzgalov
D --> Pronger - Carle (So what Pronger is old, the guy is still part of the elite in the league)
F --> Giroux - Briere

Buffalo
G --> Miller
D --> Myers - Ehrhoff
F --> Vanek - Roy

Chicago
G --> Crawford
D --> Keith - Seabrook
F --> Toews - Kane

Los Angeles
G --> Quick
D --> Doughty
F --> Kopitar - Brown


Just a reminder, this is all based on me and my thinking.
I'd like to believe believe our core is as good as the other team's cores I've written here, but it really is not. We have a great goalie, but we're lacking on defense AND on offense. Markov's injury really hurts us, but still, core for core, ours isn't the the best. Adding to this our inefficient fourth line, young trio of D, and a couple of players slumbering, we got our present situation. Last.
You are correct, we do not have the best core, but we have a young core that is good. I never said we'd win the cup with it, I'm saying that we should try to win it with this young and excellent core. The odds are not great, but it is not impossible either.

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Old
10-22-2011, 09:21 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
Flames want to trade Stajan, there is no secret he has fallen into the dog house and his contract length is one they would like to get rid of. Gomez maybe unattractive right now, but playing with Tanguay and Iginla would really help him, if not Iggy too. His contract looks better the next two years over this year.

Habs could send another prospect or pick, but this trade is a change of scenery for some players and the shifting of some lengthy contracts too.

This isn't your "NHL12" type of deal, this is a Pouliot for Latendresse type of deal, a trade two teams are trying to make to better their teams by trading players that need a change.
I don't really know what to say... I just don't see nobody trading for Gomez.

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Old
10-22-2011, 10:33 AM
  #112
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I don't see either happening. The Habs will not tank though I would like to see some picks coming back at the deadline. This is of course only possible if all d-men are healthy. I would love to see Eller over take Gomez in the center depth and the Habs be able to move him so they can target one of the star 27 year olds that may be UFA this summer. Everyone needs to get healthy before the team can truly be examined. The problem is we've been saying that for the last 3 seasons. Are they ever going to be healthy?

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10-22-2011, 10:48 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
Flames want to trade Stajan, there is no secret he has fallen into the dog house and his contract length is one they would like to get rid of. Gomez maybe unattractive right now, but playing with Tanguay and Iginla would really help him, if not Iggy too. His contract looks better the next two years over this year.

Habs could send another prospect or pick, but this trade is a change of scenery for some players and the shifting of some lengthy contracts too.

This isn't your "NHL12" type of deal, this is a Pouliot for Latendresse type of deal, a trade two teams are trying to make to better their teams by trading players that need a change.
LOL

Is this a joke?..This is an NHL 12 type of deal actually. You aren't looking at the big picture whatsoever. The flames are trying to increase their cap space to rebuild not have .5 mil left. There is absolutely no way the flames will ever want gomez, they have enough average centers as it is. If J Feaster did this move he would be hung from the Calgary tower. I live in Calgary and i will tell you that theres no way in hell this will ever happen. I say stajan goes for a 4-5 rounder.

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Old
10-22-2011, 11:06 AM
  #114
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"Tanking" is an HF concept and doesn't exist in the real world let alone for a team spending to the cap ceiling.

I can see a team taht is bottom 5 in February dumping a lot of vets to help the future, but that's not "tanking".

I'd like somebody to show me an NHL example of a team "Tanking" Rimouski with Crosby is not an NHL example.

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Old
10-22-2011, 01:08 PM
  #115
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"Tanking" is not a strategy. It's usually the residue of an incompetent GM who makes one bad personnel decision after another until he gets fired. He leaves his team in such depleted shape that his successor is lucky enough to get high draft picks for the next few years. The Habs could use another Réjean Houle, or perhaps another Serge Savard in his later stages, when his mind was on horses rather than hockey plyers. Both drafted any number of dogs, resulting in the Habs not making the playoffs.


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Old
10-22-2011, 01:18 PM
  #116
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Play out the season, and then see where we are. Deliberately losing games is a bad idea, making hasty trades is a bad idea ...

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10-22-2011, 01:46 PM
  #117
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Strange that most people in here say that Gomez is untradeable and yet some people in here thinks Gomez is not as bad as some think he is.....So...what if some GM thinks he is actually not that bad and have room for him under the cap? I will add the Habs factor. Most players that have left this team are doing better elsewhere. If I'm a GM throughout the league, I'd expecting a better performance for the guy I'll get from Montreal....While I will find it extremely stupid, Gomez is on the verge of being the next Brisebois with all the boobirds coming in a Centre Bell near you. If traded, he gets a new start and some breathing room to get his game going.

Wonder what will happen after though....will Gionta and Cammy ask for a trade since the reason they got here is leaving town ?

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Old
10-22-2011, 02:04 PM
  #118
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We have some time before total apocalypse here. The team will turn around and win games, the roster isn't as bad as the record indicates. But for a team that will be on the bubble come playoff time, this slump and lost points is not exactly needed and will hurt.

If the team is below .500 in say December, Martin will be gone. But nothing doing till then, and I very much doubt this will happen.

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Old
10-22-2011, 02:08 PM
  #119
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How is everyone listing Price in our core and saying we should get some bottom three picks for a few years? If you have a goalie worth building around he won't let you be a lottery team. So the only real possibilities for the tank crowd is:
a) trade everyone and Price still keeps us out of the basement
b) trade everyone and Price goes downhill meaning we really need a rebuild because our superstar isn't as good as we thought he was

If you want us to get a top pick then you have to cheer for Price to fail.

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10-22-2011, 02:12 PM
  #120
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If we keep loosing like this, what would management do ?
I think they would try to re-tighten things.

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10-22-2011, 02:13 PM
  #121
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Play out the season, and then see where we are. Deliberately losing games is a bad idea, making hasty trades is a bad idea ...
Impossible because they are UNTRADABLE players like Gomez, Gionta, Cole, Markov... 22 million $$$ of crap.

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10-22-2011, 02:16 PM
  #122
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Impossible because they are UNTRADABLE players like Gomez, Gionta, Cole, Markov... 22 million $$$ of crap.
Markov and Gionta are far from being crap. Markov if hurt will hurt us in the lineup but will be on the IR and we can still replace him. Gomez isn't getting traded anytime soon and I also believe we are stuck with him unless we package a good player with him or a high pick for another team to take him. Cole, the only team I see him taking him is Carolina but we would have to again give them something else and take back a bad salary of theirs

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10-22-2011, 02:29 PM
  #123
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I posted this on the habsrus board, but it works for this thread as well...

I got into some pretty heated debates in the pre season and the first games of the year over all the panicking regarding the team. I defended the team.

But I find myself in the same position with some of the commentators on this board. Look, I cancelled my cable in September b/c it was getting too expensive and I just did not see a need for it since I do everything on the net. I found the sites to watch games online and was really excited to start the year. But every period, every listless second that this team skates on the ice pushes me further and further away from wanting to watch them.

I will always cheer for them, always check box scores… but the actual act of watching them is becoming more and more laborious. I don’t want to feel like watching my team is a job I want to quit.

As for who is to blame… I really don’t know. This franchise has not been consistently exciting now for close to 2 decades. Flashes here and there are nice and all, but I am beginning to feel like a neglected housewife here. Ownership is really the guilty party. They/he is responsible for hiring a series of inadequate GM’s, who have then hired inadequate coaches.

There has never been a grass roots movement from within the organization to build around youth. We have all been impressed with the type of talent that was drafted at their particular draft spots, but the majority of the time we have been drafting from a position where we were looking at grabbing potentially good role guys, to high risk/high reward prospect. Other than Carey Price we have never had an opportunity to draft a blue chip prospect. Komisarek, Kostitisyn, while top 10 picks, were never blue chippers.

And to do that we either have to tank or trade up. And to do that we need a management team that will commit. And to do that you need an ownership willing to allow for the team to be bad in order to get good or make a big sacrifice to get that prime player/pick. And it will just never happen because whoever owns the Montreal Canadiens will always care more about the bottom line than about winning.

Unfortunately it will always be like this. You can occupy wall street, but even if you were to unoccupy the bell centre, they would still make money hand over fist with tv contracts, and corporate sponsors, etc. They simply don’t care about powerhouse winning, but are content to be marginally good. Make the playoffs, suck some playoff tit money and repeat the process every year because you have a fanbase (personal, corporate and in the media) that is willing to pay.

Until we have an owner who hires a GM with a mandate of “I want to build a dynasty and I don’t care how much economic suffering it takes” and not “I am just happy to make the playoffs” I think we will always have the same marginally good teams we get every year going on 20 years now.

We had a coach in Guy Boucher who you just knew had something good around him. We let him go. We had an opportunity to get a Kovalchuk in his prime, we pussied out. We had the chance to unload Souray at a point where his value was highest; we went for the playoff money. Hell, Gainey let Komisarek, Kovalev and company walk.. he knew he was going to let them go, and he did not bother to get something for them at the deadline. We/he knew that the team was not going to win the cup, but playoff money was over the horizon.. so why bother taking the risk?

Sorry, this has been a long, disorganized rant.

We are the freaking Montreal Canadiens. We are the Yankees of hockey. Why don't we act like it? I don't care about pre-game ceremonies or stadium gimiks.. just give me a good team to cheer for.

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Old
10-22-2011, 02:46 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Strange that most people in here say that Gomez is untradeable and yet some people in here thinks Gomez is not as bad as some think he is.....So...what if some GM thinks he is actually not that bad and have room for him under the cap? I will add the Habs factor. Most players that have left this team are doing better elsewhere. If I'm a GM throughout the league, I'd expecting a better performance for the guy I'll get from Montreal....While I will find it extremely stupid, Gomez is on the verge of being the next Brisebois with all the boobirds coming in a Centre Bell near you. If traded, he gets a new start and some breathing room to get his game going.

Wonder what will happen after though....will Gionta and Cammy ask for a trade since the reason they got here is leaving town ?
I don't know if Gomez is going to get traded after this season, if he's tradeable, or if the Habs even want to trade him. But I think it may be possible if Eller keeps progressing. There is little center value/depth on the UFA market this coming summer and Gomez's salary starts to decline, so he may be an option for some teams. I just hope that if they do trade him they don't give up any assets to do it. And if he's not traded I'll come back with the same reasoning why he'll be traded the year after

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10-22-2011, 02:51 PM
  #125
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For the tank crowd that want a high pick with a hope of a turnaround the year after the only ones I would contemplate trading away are Spacek, Gill or, most unrealistic of all, Gomez. And get Budaj to start even 30-35 games will likely land us a #2-5 pick. But I don't think that we will suck enough for the first overall, except if we win the lottery. If, somehow, we got into the playoffs with Budaj playing 30 games, however, Price will be that much more rested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
"Tanking" is an HF concept and doesn't exist in the real world let alone for a team spending to the cap ceiling.

I can see a team taht is bottom 5 in February dumping a lot of vets to help the future, but that's not "tanking".

I'd like somebody to show me an NHL example of a team "Tanking" Rimouski with Crosby is not an NHL example.
Most NHL examples come with at least two teams doing it simultaneously. 1983-84 is the most infamous one. Pens and Devils were both tanking.

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