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Big Trade or Tanking ?

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Old
10-23-2011, 12:25 AM
  #126
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I won't go into a multiquote debate because I know it'll just go around and we'll have page long posts

I think you should actually read your post but look at it differently.
You say they are RFAs, yes, but what makes you think they'll want to re-sign for multiples years passed their UFA time?
You ask why would they even want to leave especially if they see us bringing in top talent, well, if you want to bring in top talent through the draft, it means multiple years of tanking + lucking out on a good draft year.
I've explained this to you already. There's no reason to believe that younger guys are going to walk. Older vets would want to leave and that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If it's through trades and signings, then we're not talking about tanking.
'Tanking' doesn't exist. 'Rebuilding' does.

I haven't seen too many people actually advocate for us to intentionally lose and the league would never allow it. It's illegal and the crap would hit the fan if anyone tried it.

Rebuilding is perfectly ethical though. There's nothing wrong with recognizing that you aren't good enough to win a cup with the roster you have and trading for prospects to help you down the road.

When the Flames dealt away Joe N. for Iggy, they immediately became a weaker team. At the end of the day though, it was one step back to take two steps forward. Those kinds of deals make sense.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You talk about drafting top 5 and trade for prospects. Who would you trade for prospects? Trust me, I'm on board with this idea of trading some of our guys for top prospects, I just don't think it's doable. I don't think there's many teams calling PG for Gionta. Maybe Cammy, but I'm not they'd be willing to part ways with top prospects for him, not at his cap hit. Plekanec and Gorges are the only two guys that have good value (not counting Price, PK, MaxPac as we'd want them as our core). I would have no problem entertaining some offers for them, but I have a hard time believing we'd be getting the better part of a deal involving them.
Cammy would definitely fetch a good prospect or pick. Markov (if he returns healthy down the stretch and plays well) would also warrant a good return. Pleks and Gionta both have value. And if the right package was there for AK (who I wouldn't necessarily deal away) then I'd do that too.

Gomez won't be traded but that's okay, we can just keep him. He can play with MaxPac. Cole we're probably stuck with as well but that's fine, we can keep some vets too. We don't have to trade away every single vet on the team. We only make deals that make sense for us. And if somebody offers us a ham sandwich for Cammy and that's all we can get... fine, we keep him. We keep him until somebody offers us fair market value or tell them to jump in the lake. We don't make some stupid trade for the sake of it like we did with Gomez and then try to justify it by saying "Well, it was the best offer we got so..." The return must justify what we give up.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
And yes, it would certainly be great if we could get a superstar center out of tanking, but nothing guarantees it. If you told me that within 5 years, we are a sure contender for many years to come, then hey, sign me up. Problem is you can't deliver such a promise or guarantee. So it all sounds good with the happy ending, like a fairy tale, but reality isn't always as pretty.
I never said it guarantees anything and you know this. There is no such thing as a guarantee in hockey.

But we can look at the odds. If you get three top five picks your odds of drafting a superstar are over 50%. And it's almost impossible (esp with our scouting group) to wind up with less than at least one very good player. Odds are we'd wind up with more than one good player if we did this.

And again, we don't even need to rely on finishing low to do this. We can look at the prospects of other clubs who have already been drafted. If our scouts say that Kyle Turris is the one we should go after, then that's what we do. We don't have to try to finish 30th to rebuild. We worry about the returns on our trades and we just play the games. If we make the playoffs with a young roster... great. But no matter what, we hang on to our draft picks and don't deal away for quick fixes in order to make 8th place.



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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for the fans, I think it's highly unrealistic to believe the Bell Center would still be packed every night and that the Habs fever around the city would remain the same. It's already noticeable that the craze dropped a bit last year, and it feels the same this year. Now apparently there was plenty of empty seats so far this year, and not every game has yet to be sold out like in previous years. At the end of the day, hockey is a spectacle. If the entertainment is bad, people will stop watching. If the habs were more of what we saw last game, I can tell you I would eventually stop as well, and I'm as big a fan as anybody else. I'm not saying I wouldn't come back running once the habs become entertaining again, but to expect no drop in sales of tickets and merchandise while in a rebuild isn't quite realistic.
A bigger risk is to just keep finishing in 8th place for the next decade. Part of the lack of enthusiasm is that the club has spent all this money on high priced duds. The fans know we aren't really good enough to win anything and that's tough to swallow. Why get excited about paying 200 dollars to go see Scott Gomez cash another paycheck?

The feeling would be completely different (and more forgiving) if we invested in younger hungry players. I can tell you that I watched a lot of Edmonton games last year. Yes, they lost and missed the playoffs but it was FUN to watch. The fans loved it because they were watching a hungry team. It was fun to watch the club develop around dynamic young players.

And look at us. The fans love PK and Max and Price. They are the future. Who are they bored by? The vets. The overpaid FAs and bad trades that we've made.

If we took a serious look at actually building a contender the fans are smart enough to understand this and they're still going to want to watch guys like PK develop.




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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As I said, you seem to approach the Tanking idea by looking at the very best scenario, getting superstar center, drafting top 5, trading for good prospects, rebuild to be very short, no losses in terms of fans. Sorry, but I don't believe that everything would be as perfect as you make it sound.
You aren't giving me nearly enough credit here and you're making my philosophy sound over simplistic.

Never anywhere have I said that we'd just go out and draft superstar after superstar if we drafted top five consistently. It doesn't work that way. You have a 23-24% chance of drafting a superstar with ONE top five pick. Those odds go up with the more you have.

What I have said is that if you consistently draft top five, the odds are that you will eventually draft a superstar. And along the way it is highly likely that you will draft other good players (Nathan Horton, Kirk Muller) types to help your development. Heck, look at our only top five in 25 years... it's Carey Price who just happens to be the best player on our team and the guy who everyone is hoping will lead us to the cup someday.

Moreover, I've said that we shouldn't just rely on the draft. It's the return on picks and prospects via trades that we should look at as well. By doing this you accelerate the rebuild process.

It's not as simple as... draft top five three times, get Crosby, Malkin and OV. I've never said this and I don't believe it. I simply believe that we can get better players in the top five than anywhere else and we don't do enough of this. We don't trade for picks or prospects and as a result, don't get the top end talent that we've always needed to win a cup.
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
LG read my post again, I think you rushed it. I said that we will likely NOT get a top 3 game changer in the next 3 years, but that we still have a cup window.
I know.

What I'm asking you is... do you realistically think we can win a cup without a top game changer? I don't think we can so I don't see how you come up with a three year window here.


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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Yes it's true, and you know I agree with you on this, a top 3 game changer would bring us much closer to the cup, but it's not going to happen soon. Therefore let's do everything we can the next 3-4 years to win a cup without one. It may be possible.
This is what I have a problem with here though...

I don't think it's possible. Not with the club we have now. We're a playoff team yes. But a cup winning caliber team? I don't see it.

I think we need top end talent (that we don't have) to do this. And I don't see how we do it other than dealing for picks and prospects and/or drafting high. Other clubs aren't going to give us their top stars for nothing so we're kind of stuck in this circle of mediocrity that we've been in for over a decade now.
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
In essence, I'm saying that we are too good to tank right now, so let's shoot for the cup. Bad odds, but we should try.
How do we "shoot for the cup" though? Do you think we should trade our picks for other clubs vets? Do you think that we're only one player away from a cup? I think we have more problems than just one player. I think we lack size in our top six and aren't tough/big enough. There's just not enough size balance in our lineup. I don't think our D is ready to really compete in a Cup final and I don't think we have an elite scorer to take us anywhere right now.

That's a lot of holes to fill and I think we're better off just recognizing this and starting over and should've done it years ago.

As for this year, okay. You want to see what we can do, fair enough. I'm sure management agrees with you and we'll see how it goes. I have no doubt that we'll play better this year and turn it around. If we're a lock to make the playoffs by the deadline, fine... see how it goes. But, if we're fighting for 8th place and not sure if we're even going to be there... I'd prefer they just pull the plug and forget about it. It's way past time we do this and this would be the perfect opportunity to finally get serious about trying to build a winner.
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
You are correct, we do not have the best core, but we have a young core that is good. I never said we'd win the cup with it, I'm saying that we should try to win it with this young and excellent core. The odds are not great, but it is not impossible either.
Keep the young core and get more youth to go along with it. Its the youth that we're excited about anyway, not the vets.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
"Tanking" is an HF concept and doesn't exist in the real world let alone for a team spending to the cap ceiling.

I can see a team taht is bottom 5 in February dumping a lot of vets to help the future, but that's not "tanking".

I'd like somebody to show me an NHL example of a team "Tanking" Rimouski with Crosby is not an NHL example.
'Tanking' meaning intentionally losing? No. It doesn't exist. But rebuilding does.

Rebuilding (trading away vets for picks and prospects and playing those younger players) is not a fictional concept. Ted Leonsis of the Washington Capitals gave a ten point rebuilding program that has been posted here many times. They had a decent team that was playoff capable but not cup capable. They actually went out and did something about it. It was an intentional rebuild where they systematically traded away vets like Jagr and rebuilt from the ground up.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-23-2011 at 12:31 AM.
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Old
10-23-2011, 12:31 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Rebuilding (trading away vets for picks and prospects and playing those younger players) is not a fictional concept. Ted Leonsis of the Washington Capitals gave a ten point rebuilding program that has been posted here many times. They had a decent team that was playoff capable but not cup capable. They actually went out and did something about it. It was an intentional rebuild where they systematically traded away vets like Jagr and rebuilt from the ground up.
Anyone in favor of Tanking like you (I know, you'll pretend it's not tanking) should drop the Leonsis example, it makes you look completely clueless...

try to at least find someone who had success (as in win a cup) within the first 8 years of their rebuild...

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10-23-2011, 12:32 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by napoleon in rags View Post
I think they would try to re-tighten things.
Gotta admit, in my time of sorrow this made me laugh.

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10-23-2011, 12:40 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Anyone in favor of Tanking like you (I know, you'll pretend it's not tanking) should drop the Leonsis example, it makes you look completely clueless...

try to at least find someone who had success (as in win a cup) within the first 8 years of their rebuild...
i'm not in favor of "tanking" (though I don't really buy that any team does, unless it's an internal cap issue where they sell off assets to save money), but I am in favor of a GM with the balls to look at his roster, realize it's more than 1-2 pieces away & doesn't see the solution internally (prospects near NHL ready) or have the short-term cap flexibility to dramatically improve the roster via trade/UFA, and decides to move all of the pieces he deems expendable (from the POV of not being key personnel he wants/believes in long-term) in exchange for assets that will "mature" later (ie picks/prospects).


Is there no point where you'd look at this roster, and prefer that the team forgo emphasizing just "making the playoffs" for the sake of it with the mantra that "anything can happen" (as opposed to a team that has the confidence/expectations, and results/performance to back it, that they are going for the Cup "or bust"), in favor of getting the most we can in return for UFA's to be and players who are expendable (as described above)?

I wouldn't even argue that now is the time to make that decision, it's still early, and as much as it seems impossible given how the team is playing, we could go on a run in November or December and put ourselves right back on the path to a top-4 finish/home-ice in the playoffs.

but if we do get to late november/december, and the team is still floundering below the 8th seed, how long do you wait until focusing more on next year/beyond? or do you figure that the habs simply must always push for a playoff spot this year, regardless?

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10-23-2011, 12:48 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i'm not in favor of "tanking" (though I don't really buy that any team does, unless it's an internal cap issue where they sell off assets to save money), but I am in favor of a GM with the balls to look at his roster, realize it's more than 1-2 pieces away & doesn't see the solution internally (prospects near NHL ready) or have the short-term cap flexibility to dramatically improve the roster via trade/UFA, and decides to move all of the pieces he deems expendable (from the POV of not being key personnel he wants/believes in long-term) in exchange for assets that will "mature" later (ie picks/prospects).


Is there no point where you'd look at this roster, and prefer that the team forgo emphasizing just "making the playoffs" for the sake of it with the mantra that "anything can happen" (as opposed to a team that has the confidence/expectations, and results/performance to back it, that they are going for the Cup "or bust"), in favor of getting the most we can in return for UFA's to be and players who are expendable (as described above)?

I wouldn't even argue that now is the time to make that decision, it's still early, and as much as it seems impossible given how the team is playing, we could go on a run in November or December and put ourselves right back on the path to a top-4 finish/home-ice in the playoffs.

but if we do get to late november/december, and the team is still floundering below the 8th seed, how long do you wait until focusing more on next year/beyond? or do you figure that the habs simply must always push for a playoff spot this year, regardless?
While I dont agree with the concept of tanking (or whatever one wants to call it), I agree that the decision to buy/sell have to be now, or soon, If there's one thing I dont want us to be is last year NJ where their 2nd half was so good they moved up the rankings... but didnt made the PO regardless, they ended up with an average pick #, while not even giving the fans a few games of PO...

So, if PG think we have what it takes to make the PO and have a decent run, he has to do something now, not after the next 3 or 4 losses... same thing if he feels we wont amount to much this season, he has to prepare for selling now (although outside Cammy/Plek, well...)

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10-23-2011, 01:04 AM
  #131
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Yes I'm for going in a new direction (you can call it tanking if you want). We're in the mediocrity death cycle. Sign 1-2 overpaid older free agents each year. Finish 6-8 in the conference. Win a round in the playoffs, and no real chance to win. End up with the 15th pick.

Just look at our own team. Who is our best player? Yeah, that's right our only top 5 pick in the draft in the last what 20 years?

I just look at Philly giving up Richards and Carter and their team is already light years ahead of ours with Giroux, Vouracek, Van Reismdyk, Couturier, Simmonds as a core. Even Boston with Seguin, Lucic, Horton, Marchand, Begeron are much better than we are.

Our problem is we are old and unskilled. I watched Nugent-Hopkins ringing one in off the post tonight on HNIC. Aside from Camm, who can even do this on our team?

You think Turris might be a franchise type player? These are the type of bold moves we need to take. Build around Price, Subban, MaxPac, Eller, Emelin, and trade the rest.

Gionta, Gomez, Gill, Spacek, Cole, Moen, Darche, Desharnais, Markov, Gorges, Camm could fetch us alot of good young players.

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10-23-2011, 01:16 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
While I dont agree with the concept of tanking (or whatever one wants to call it), I agree that the decision to buy/sell have to be now, or soon, If there's one thing I dont want us to be is last year NJ where their 2nd half was so good they moved up the rankings... but didnt made the PO regardless, they ended up with an average pick #, while not even giving the fans a few games of PO...
So NJ has years and years of success, then they have a very bad year and end up with a top 4 pick and get a monster franchise D in Larsson. Colorado has years of success, then they are very bad and end up with a franchise center in Duchene and a monster winger in Landeskog. In the meantime we gotten Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu.

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10-23-2011, 01:39 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
So NJ has years and years of success, then they have a very bad year and end up with a top 4 pick and get a monster franchise D in Larsson. Colorado has years of success, then they are very bad and end up with a franchise center in Duchene and a monster winger in Landeskog. In the meantime we gotten Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu.
Good point.

I say... FAIL FOR NAIL! (or top 5-10 at least)!

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10-23-2011, 02:11 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
So NJ has years and years of success, then they have a very bad year and end up with a top 4 pick and get a monster franchise D in Larsson. Colorado has years of success, then they are very bad and end up with a franchise center in Duchene and a monster winger in Landeskog. In the meantime we gotten Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu.
while you make it sound like all is good in Colorado and NJ, Devils (since their last cup) never made it past the 2nd round and the Avs made it past the 2nd round once in the last decade, a decade wich includes no PO for 3 of their last 5 seasons...

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10-23-2011, 02:25 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
while you make it sound like all is good in Colorado and NJ, Devils (since their last cup) never made it past the 2nd round and the Avs made it past the 2nd round once in the last decade, a decade wich includes no PO for 3 of their last 5 seasons...
yeah, and in the last 17 years since we won the cup, we have:

- 6 years out of the PO (more than 1/3)
- 6 years eliminated in the first round (more than 1/3)
- 4 years eliminated in the 2nd round
- 1 year in the conference finals

and yet the only "franchise" type player we have to show for it is Price (whom we obtained thanks to a lock-out and a lottery "win")... Subban may prove to be another one, but obviously too early to say.


again, not in favor of Tanking in order to "try" and finish last and pick first overall... but the habs approach, especially in the Gainey era, of waisting picks/prospects in a meagre attempt to bolster a borderline playoff roster just to get to the playoffs and maybe win a round, has been pretty useless imo.

had he stuck to building a winner, and had the balls to make some tough decisions PRIOR to July 1st, we'd have accumulated many more young assets/picks, which a schrewd GM could have translated into elite young talent(s) and/or high pick(s).

the "we can't afford to miss the playoffs" excuse is lame, especially since we've missed the playoffs over 1/3 of the time since our last cup win.

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10-23-2011, 02:51 AM
  #136
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A youth movement would not be impossible but I wouldn't do it all this year.

-Right now you could trade Gomez(I know it always come down to him but he's the first big contract that should be sacrificed). Just so you can give more ice time to Eller and DD to prepare for the futur.

-Then at the trade deadline this year, you offer Gorges to other teams so he can have a good run with a contender. He deserves that.

-I would do the same with Markov if he is healty. I'm sure some teams woud salivate at the thought of getting him, if they can absorb his contract.

-If it's possible send Cole on wavers.

-Next year let go Spacek, Moen, Darche and Gill. Even if Moen is a great team guy it always felt like he wasn't part of the team. Like his mind wasn't there. And he never brought us what we needed as far as grit.

So we would enter the fall of 2012 with a young D squad and only Gio, Plek and Cammy as vets basically. You keep the same squad for two, three years. And get the high draft picks.

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10-23-2011, 07:54 AM
  #137
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I know you are short on D right now but if someone comes up and offers a great return for Subban...not sure if he is right for the room and never liked his antics on the ice. I don't think your team will be right until he's gone. Amazing talent though.

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10-23-2011, 08:26 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by noway View Post
I know you are short on D right now but if someone comes up and offers a great return for Subban...not sure if he is right for the room and never liked his antics on the ice. I don't think your team will be right until he's gone. Amazing talent though.
To Toronto:

P.K Subban


To Montreal:

Jake Gardiner, 2nd rounder 2012, 3rd rounder 2012.

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10-23-2011, 08:26 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
yeah, and in the last 17 years since we won the cup, we have:

- 6 years out of the PO (more than 1/3)
- 6 years eliminated in the first round (more than 1/3)
- 4 years eliminated in the 2nd round
- 1 year in the conference finals

and yet the only "franchise" type player we have to show for it is Price (whom we obtained thanks to a lock-out and a lottery "win")... Subban may prove to be another one, but obviously too early to say.


again, not in favor of Tanking in order to "try" and finish last and pick first overall... but the habs approach, especially in the Gainey era, of waisting picks/prospects in a meagre attempt to bolster a borderline playoff roster just to get to the playoffs and maybe win a round, has been pretty useless imo.

had he stuck to building a winner, and had the balls to make some tough decisions PRIOR to July 1st, we'd have accumulated many more young assets/picks, which a schrewd GM could have translated into elite young talent(s) and/or high pick(s).

the "we can't afford to miss the playoffs" excuse is lame, especially since we've missed the playoffs over 1/3 of the time since our last cup win.
Bang on. The truth hurts. My greatest example was not trading Souray for a high pick. We've had so many vets of high value at the deadline, and wasted them.

Yes I have said we should try for a cup soon, but I have also qualified that by saying I might change my mind if we still stink by January, with Marky back for 2 months.

If we're .500 in January, I'd be much more excited about 3 first round picks next year than finishing 8th and getting bumped in 6 games. I'd say trade away PG, except for Subby, Max and Price.

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10-23-2011, 08:47 AM
  #140
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This is why we should tank

- In your face attitude
- Sniper
- SHow man
- Crazy puck handling
- Finisher


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10-23-2011, 09:33 AM
  #141
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maybe im just depressed or maybe you negative nancies have grinded me down but if after 10-15 games were still in the basement, i'd be up for some major 're-tooling' call it whatever you want. trade some players to contenders for picks or other players that will fill some of our needs (bigger on defense, 4th line center, faceoff). flips some picks, do whatever you have to do and end up with 2 or more first rounders. make sure we bomb enough (starting budaj for half the games oughtta do the trick) to pick top 5 and start again next season.

don't sell the farm, just try to upgrade when upgrades can be had. plus, gomez can reasonably be buried or traded next season when his contract is less

it's not tanking, it's.. fixing some holes in our lineup. for example, i love our defense's potential, they already move the puck like nobody's business, imagine in a few years when the defensive boo-boo's have been ironed out. but, they are too ****ing small, i don't have a hard-on for size and toughness as much as some of you have but size is definitely something you want on your back end, not at the expense of skills, but if one of diaz, weber or emelin can be moved for someone bigger, meaner and with comparable skill, then it has to be done. or keep em all and sign 2 defensive guys to replace gill and spacho next season

i think it would be a terrible mistake for the habs to keep going like the devils did last season.

and before any of that is done, martin would have to go of course, which will happen if we don't get any better by game 10-15.


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 10-23-2011 at 09:44 AM.
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10-23-2011, 09:42 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Bang on. The truth hurts. My greatest example was not trading Souray for a high pick. We've had so many vets of high value at the deadline, and wasted them.

Yes I have said we should try for a cup soon, but I have also qualified that by saying I might change my mind if we still stink by January, with Marky back for 2 months.

If we're .500 in January, I'd be much more excited about 3 first round picks next year than finishing 8th and getting bumped in 6 games. I'd say trade away PG, except for Subby, Max and Price.
People keep forgetting about Eller, he's going to be a stud.

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10-23-2011, 09:54 AM
  #143
MasterDecoy
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my list of "not trading, don't even ask"
price
subban
pacioretty
eller
markov

"not trading unless it's a nice overpayment"
plekanec
weber

"will entertain offers"
cammalleri
gorges
diaz
emelin
desharnais
white
moen

everybody else can be had. guys like darche for example will probably not be moved simply because of what they bring and he is signed to a very management friendly contract.

not all is gloom and doom, we have some good pieces in place already, just needs some tweakage

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10-23-2011, 10:00 AM
  #144
Harry Kakalovich
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Fail for Nail, Baby! Fail for Nail!!!!

After the Calgary game it donned on me - this actually could be the year the Habbies take a step back, are in a position to sell at the deadline, and claim a bunch of goodies come draft day. We shall see, but if it can happen to New Jersey, Philly, Boston and Toronto, it can happen here.

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10-23-2011, 11:59 AM
  #145
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
So NJ has years and years of success, then they have a very bad year and end up with a top 4 pick and get a monster franchise D in Larsson. Colorado has years of success, then they are very bad and end up with a franchise center in Duchene and a monster winger in Landeskog. In the meantime we gotten Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu.
It's worth noting btw, that NJ and Colorado finished out of the playoffs for years before becoming powerhouses. They rebuilt and it paid off with multiple cups for both teams. Guys like ECWHSWI ignore this or don't want to acknowledge it because they believe that we're somehow going to win the cup with the mediocre rosters we keep cobbling together. They have no idea what rebuilding is and just post quick posts like "Tanking is for losers !!!111 " That's why I don't waste my time with him.

Now Colorado seems to be starting over again and they've got some great young players in their lineup. And unlike us, they actually have top end forwards on the way up. They made a gamble on dealing away a first round pick but they got a first round pick prospect goalie (Varlamov) in return and he seems to be paying off. I didn't expect them to do all that well this year but that's the funny thing about young talent, sometimes it develops quicker than you expect. It won't surprise me at all if they leapfrog us the way Edmonton will. LA, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Washington and Vancouver have all drafted high and leapfrogged us over the past few years and developed into contending/cup winning teams.

But we don't do this. We never rebuild. We just go out and get the best mediocre FA we can, overpay for him and try to just make 8th place every year. Even worse, we've given away one of our best prospects in the process. We spin our wheels but go nowhere. And the McD trade really hurt us because we gave up and asset that could help us in the future for an overpaid soft center who strapped us down with a big cap hit.

On a sidenote, the Rangers have been on TV quite a bit lately and I don't know if any of you have had a chance to see McD yet. He looks good. Not flashy, not Paul Coffey-ish but steady, solid and capable of handling the puck really well. He's kind of like Staal but with more offense. Making that trade is going to haunt us for a long time.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-23-2011 at 01:26 PM.
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10-23-2011, 12:02 PM
  #146
habitue*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Kakalovitch View Post
Fail for Nail, Baby! Fail for Nail!!!!

After the Calgary game it donned on me - this actually could be the year the Habbies take a step back, are in a position to sell at the deadline, and claim a bunch of goodies come draft day. We shall see, but if it can happen to New Jersey, Philly, Boston and Toronto, it can happen here.
Who's gonna take Gomez, Gionta, Spacek, Gill, Cole or even Cammaleri off our hands ?

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10-23-2011, 12:07 PM
  #147
Bohemian93
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A trade being equivalent to what San Jose did in 2005 upon their losing streak early in the season to acquire Joe Thornton might be necessary, I fear.

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10-23-2011, 12:12 PM
  #148
HTTP 400 Bad Request
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Who's gonna take Gomez, Gionta, Spacek, Gill, Cole or even Cammaleri off our hands ?
Nobody, since Gauthier gave them all NTC. So we are pretty much stuck with them. That's why this whole "tanking" idea is worthless.

The only player that could be move is Gomez, since his NTC is limited to only 3 teams. That gives Gauthier to possibility to trade him to the 27 other teams... but then, as you say, who would take him?

Tanking is not a possibility for the Habs for at least 3 more years, when much of the big contracts will be done. Only Cole will remain for 1 year with his NTC.

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10-23-2011, 12:18 PM
  #149
Ford Prefect
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Anyone in favor of Tanking like you (I know, you'll pretend it's not tanking) should drop the Leonsis example, it makes you look completely clueless...

try to at least find someone who had success (as in win a cup) within the first 8 years of their rebuild...
First 8 years? I'll take a stab at that... Most recently, Pittsburgh. And they will have MANY years of success to come. Before that? Colorado/QC were doormats for years and then became a perennial powerhouse. New Jersey? Detroit was a doormat up until the early 90s and built a dynasty. When you think about it, pretty much every cup winning team had been a cellar dweller within the prior 8 years. Anaheim, Carolina, TBay... Really the only one that hasn't been is Boston.

I must be missing your point, because I can't think of many examples that support your position

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10-24-2011, 09:29 PM
  #150
intylerwetrust
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The solution

Just wanted to give my annual "Habs solution to all their problems" rant.... Its not the coaching, its not the players that arent playing to their full potential, the players just arent THAT good to begin with..... anyway. Same story every year since 93, right? Almost 20 years of Montreal Canadiens mediocrity.

Solution? Nail Yakupov. 5th in OHL scoring last year, rookie of the year, presently leads the OHL scoring, and he just turned 18!!!

I know I know, tanking in this will never happen yadda yadda.... But then again, Philly finished last just 4 seasons ago, and the big market Leafs were bottom feeders for years. WHY NOT Montreal? WHY NOT sacrifice ONE season? THey clearly dont have a winning team AGAIN, and even if they happen to squeak in the playoffs.... what the hell are they going to do?

With a guy like Yakupov it would give the Habs the foundation needed to be competitors year after year. Theyd have: a franchise forward, franchise Dman (Subban), and franchise goalie for many many years. Thats what you need. Not saying theyll win a Cup in 2-3 years, but AT LEAST theyd have the foundations to build around. Ask the Pens, Hawks, Caps,, and soon to be Oilers and Islanders how thats working out for them?

Yeah, its wishful thinking.... Probably what Leafs fans were thinking 10 years ago before they were really bad, and they were only a Kessel trade away from having Hall or Seguin, surrounded by Kadri, Schenn, and (maybe) Dougie Hamilton (pick from Kessel trade).

Just do it already!

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