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Scott Hartnell : why so much hate?

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Old
10-22-2011, 10:27 PM
  #1
YuioIklo
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Scott Hartnell : why so much hate?

Am I the only one who still thinks that Hartnell is a decent winger that can crash the net, play physical, etc, like before? Am I the only one who still remembers all he has done for us, and how he was good on the HBL line?

He simply doesn't fit on his actual line, and the 4th line would be even worse. The guy is there to rush the net, why put him on a defensive line? He should play with Briere, the two would benefit from it.

Sorry for making a thread about that, but, I'm kind of sick of seeing that crap on every thread "Hartnell sucks, needs to be on the 4th line, blabla", it is just senseless. All his talent has gone in 7 games?

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10-22-2011, 10:30 PM
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Yeah, I still don't get the resistance by the coaching staff to put him with Briere...

It seems like a pretty obvious thing to try.

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10-22-2011, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
Am I the only one who still thinks that Hartnell is a decent winger that can crash the net, play physical, etc, like before? Am I the only one who still remembers all he has done for us, and how he was good on the HBL line?

He simply doesn't fit on his actual line, and the 4th line would be even worse. The guy is there to rush the net, why put him on a defensive line? He should play with Briere, the two would benefit from it.

Sorry for making a thread about that, but, I'm kind of sick of seeing that crap on every thread "Hartnell sucks, needs to be on the 4th line, blabla", it is just senseless. All his talent has gone in 7 games?
Lets just say right now, Hartnell is probably our worse forward who is playing for us, and he is paid the 2nd most out of forwards. If he isnt playing well, bench him or send him down to the 4th to teach him a lesson. Dont play favorites. Hartnell has been horrendous and hasnt looked like he is improving.

You can look through my past posts and whatnot. I dont hate Hartnell and have defended him in the past. Right now though, he is hurting the team more than helping.

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10-22-2011, 10:40 PM
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Maybe they want him to waive his NTC. So pairing him with rookies and players he hasn´t chemistry with maybe puts him in that direction.

Who knows that.


IMO Hartnell has the same talent as before. But he lacks intensity, work ethic and seems too slowing down a bit. But its only the first games, so i think he can turn it around. But who knows?

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10-22-2011, 10:54 PM
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Could have something to do with him being bad at hockey. It's pretty obvious he should be a fourth-liner on this particular team. Sure he'll go on a scoring streak here or there when he gets top six ice-time, but he isn't consistent - or skilled - enough to play even a top nine role in Philadelphia right now.

Simmonds - Giroux - Jagr
JVR - Schenn - Briere
Read - Couturier - Voracek
Hartnell - Talbot - Nodl

Should be the line combos right now.

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10-22-2011, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
Am I the only one who still thinks that Hartnell is a decent winger that can crash the net, play physical, etc, like before? Am I the only one who still remembers all he has done for us, and how he was good on the HBL line?

He simply doesn't fit on his actual line, and the 4th line would be even worse. The guy is there to rush the net, why put him on a defensive line? He should play with Briere, the two would benefit from it.

Sorry for making a thread about that, but, I'm kind of sick of seeing that crap on every thread "Hartnell sucks, needs to be on the 4th line, blabla", it is just senseless. All his talent has gone in 7 games?
It is not hatred for Hartnell to hold the opinion that he serves this team best playing on the 4th line.

Nor is it hatred for Hartnell to hold the opinion that there are 9 other players on this season's team who have a better skill set than Hartnell.

No, everything considered, even disliking Hartnell's fat salary hit, given his fit with this team, is not hatred for Hartnell, but rather the failure to like over paying for a player who fits best on your team's 4th line.

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10-22-2011, 11:06 PM
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Falls down more than anyone else on the team. Tries to hit people, but misses a lot. Way too many blind passes. Way too many stupid penalties that could of easily been avoided. His cap hit as well.

These are the big reasons.

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10-22-2011, 11:41 PM
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Falls down more than anyone else on the team. Tries to hit people, but misses a lot. Way too many blind passes. Way too many stupid penalties that could of easily been avoided. His cap hit as well.

These are the big reasons.
He's also one of the only guys on this roster that has scored more than 20 goals for the last 6 years (barring one year, but he's scored more also in the past).

I think people need to lay off him for a bit, it's been too small a sample size at this point. If he doesn't pan out this year...then fine, otherwise he's been as consistent a forward as we've had in the past.

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10-22-2011, 11:54 PM
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Haute Couturier
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Carter's gone so everyone needs a new whipping boy. Not to mention Flyers fans have the attention span of a gnat. Hartnell has lost his luster compared to the shiny new toys which means a 20+ goal scorer needs to be bumped down to the 4th line.

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10-22-2011, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Carter's gone so everyone needs a new whipping boy. Not to mention Flyers fans have the attention span of a gnat. Hartnell has lost his luster compared to the shiny new toys which means a 20+ goal scorer needs to be bumped down to the 4th line.
Nobody is praising Jagr or Voracek, a couple of a "shiny new toys," either. Hartnell has been our worst forward, flat out.

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10-23-2011, 12:06 AM
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Haute Couturier
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Nobody is praising Jagr or Voracek, a couple of a "shiny new toys," either. Hartnell has been our worst forward, flat out.
No, but no one is calling for their heads either. Briere had been pretty bad until tonight and was killing us with his awful penalties. Yet no one whined about how our highest paid player needs to do better or be demoted.

I'm not saying he has been great, but Hartnell is notoriously streaky so I'm not worried about him after 7 games. The calls for him to be demoted to the 4th line or traded are premature.

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10-23-2011, 12:13 AM
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Voracek was absolutely awful tonight - had his head buried way up his ass...

But as for the question about why all the Hartnell hate - he has sucked. He has been horrible. Bad effort, bad penalties, falling on his ass, no goals, nothing. He has sucked. Why the hell else would a professional athlete get criticized??? Sucking is probably the #1 reason for criticism and he has sucked and sucked hard...

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10-23-2011, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
He's also one of the only guys on this roster that has scored more than 20 goals for the last 6 years (barring one year, but he's scored more also in the past).

I think people need to lay off him for a bit, it's been too small a sample size at this point. If he doesn't pan out this year...then fine, otherwise he's been as consistent a forward as we've had in the past.
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Carter's gone so everyone needs a new whipping boy. Not to mention Flyers fans have the attention span of a gnat. Hartnell has lost his luster compared to the shiny new toys which means a 20+ goal scorer needs to be bumped down to the 4th line.
Problem is that even when he's on his game, which he isn't, it's arguable as to whether or not he's worth the money. Hell, with all his blind passes and bad penalties it's arguable as to whether or not he makes a large positive impact.

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10-23-2011, 12:19 AM
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No, but no one is calling for their heads either. Briere had been pretty bad until tonight and was killing us with his awful penalties. Yet no one whined about how our highest paid player needs to do better or be demoted.

I'm not saying he has been great, but Hartnell is notoriously streaky so I'm not worried about him after 7 games. The calls for him to be demoted to the 4th line or traded are premature.
Sure he's streaky but that's what you say about a player when you look at stats. Hartnell has played the worse than any forward thus far on the flyers and it has nothing to do with stats. His work ethic, stupidity and knack for being a black hole on every line he's been on so far plus his 4.2 million dollar salary make it clear that it's time for him to get the ****ing boot.

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10-23-2011, 12:20 AM
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I am not worried about Hartnell or anyone else at the moment, whole lotta new pieces in this puzzle that need to find out where they fit...JVR, and Jagr have not got it going yet either....I think once those 2 get a little taste of the net and Hartnell hits a little twine things will start smoothing out.....Sometimes it just takes a little spark or a good bounce to get a fire of confidence burning....
Bryz has given up a few cheap ones of late too, but i think he will be just fine in the long run.....Sometimes its good to get all the experimenting done early on...then you can work on fine tuning it....Its a long season that will be filled with ups and down.....I would be much more worried if we we were not getting many shots on goal..We have had our chances, just need a few breaks....

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10-23-2011, 12:26 AM
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I am not worried about Hartnell or anyone else at the moment, whole lotta new pieces in this puzzle that need to find out where they fit...JVR, and Jagr have not got it going yet either....I think once those 2 get a little taste of the net and Hartnell hits a little twine things will start smoothing out.....Sometimes it just takes a little spark or a good bounce to get a fire of confidence burning....
Bryz has given up a few cheap ones of late too, but i think he will be just fine in the long run.....Sometimes its good to get all the experimenting done early on...then you can work on fine tuning it....Its a long season that will be filled with ups and down.....I would be much more worried if we we were not getting many shots on goal..We have had our chances, just need a few breaks....
Both of them are on vastly superior contracts to Hartnell and on top of that one is 39 years old from the KHL and the other is still a developing young-gun. What's Hartnell's excuse?

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10-23-2011, 12:36 AM
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His turnovers and bad penalties are the problem. I like his grit but penalties come hand and hand with that type of player.

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10-23-2011, 12:41 AM
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I haven't even jumped on the hate parade, sure I want our players to get it going but it's early. I'm also not blind to who sucks and who doesn't. A lot of them played crappy lately, Hartnell has just been the most noticeable. It will come to a certain time in the season where I'll start say "WTF", but it's to early to be calling for heads. 2 games ago these people who are going nuts and calling for players heads were also the ones praising how great our team was.

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10-23-2011, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Both of them are on vastly superior contracts to Hartnell and on top of that one is 39 years old from the KHL and the other is still a developing young-gun. What's Hartnell's excuse?
I Did not say Hartnell or JVR or Jagr etc had any excuses ? Did not Hartnell have an assist tonight ? Did he not draw a penalty tonight ? Yes he did have a penalty crashing the net tonight, That happens i guess..The whole $$$$$$$$ class envy argument about Hartnells contract to Jagr or JVR's age not relevant at all to what i posted....Just saying that Hartnell is not the ONLY one struggling, its just that simple my friend.

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10-23-2011, 01:57 AM
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I Did not say Hartnell or JVR or Jagr etc had any excuses ? Did not Hartnell have an assist tonight ?
Actually, he didn't have an assist tonight. Check the box-score.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2011020100

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Did he not draw a penalty tonight ? Yes he did have a penalty crashing the net tonight, That happens i guess..
Like you said, he also received a bad penalty that we got scored on. So I really don't give a **** if he drew a penalty. Hartnell annually is among the league leaders in minor penalties. It's like clockwork. So I don't give a **** how many penalties he draws on any given night.

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The whole $$$$$$$$ class envy argument about Hartnells contract to Jagr or JVR's age not relevant at all to what i posted....
It's not?

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Just saying that Hartnell is not the ONLY one struggling, its just that simple my friend.
Yeah, but he's the most expendable one and the easiest scapegoat.

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10-23-2011, 02:29 AM
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My bad, i thought for sure during the game they said Hartnell got the 2nd assist on the one goal, but maybe that was changed after review ?

And yes i do agree Hartnell is the " easiest" scape goat....That's just the way it goes when you are the type player he is.He is not a highly skilled player, never was, or will be....He is an old school North South type net crasher, who can clean up the garbage out front.He did a pretty good job at that with Briere and Leino ? But its not happening as of now...How is Leino doing ?

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10-23-2011, 03:22 AM
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Get him on a line where he has some sort of chemistry with his linemates and I expect he'll do much better.

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10-23-2011, 03:37 AM
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Here's the thing, we have 10 legit forwards to play in only 9 spots in the top 9. Somebody who doesn't diserve and is far too good to be there HAS to play on the 4th line right now. To make it even worse and to show you just how bad it really really is, all 10 of those guys would be in the top 6 in all but about 8-10 teams in the NHL. THAT'S how top heavy we are and just how rediculously stacked we are right now.


The reason that Hartnell gets so much "hate" IS because he's been playing pretty bad right now. He's actually a much better player than he's shown so far this year and I think that the trades during the off-season definitely affect him and his desire to be here.


Now, out of Briere, Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, JVR, Jagr, Voracek, Simmonds, Hartnell and Read, who would you move if you had to move one of them??? Briere = playoff monster so he stays. Giroux = franchise player so he stays. JVR, well we wouldn't part with him for Pronger and we just signed him to a very nice deal so I really don't think he's out the door any time soon. Read = cheap player & playing out of his mind (Calder canidate play right now) so I can't see him getting traded. Schenn & Couturier = our future depth at center maintainig us as being srtong down the middle so I doublt they get dealt unless it's for an elite level dman (like Suter or Weber early in the season). Voracek was suppose to be the center-piece in the Carter deal so I think the orgainzation is pretty high on him and that they'll wait and see what they have in him as opposed to trading him just a few months after dealing a former 40-goal scorer to get him. Simmonds can do pretty much everything that Hartnell can do (though with more fighting and fewer stupid penalties) at roughtly 1/3rd the cost so I think they'd be looking to keep him over Hartnell.

That leaves Hartnell as the odd-man out. Hartnell has proven to be a 25-25 man over the last few years here in Philly. He DEFINITELY has value in a trade. He should return a mid to late 1st or a 2nd tier prospect (think 7.5B or 8.0C ranking on HF). If we could deal Hartnell back to Nashville for their 1st this year we would be looking at 2 picks most likelt in the 18-24 range. With as strong and deep as this draft class is that's like having 2 picks in the 10-15 range in a typical draft year.

Now lets take this just one step further. By dealing Hartnell we'd free up his 4.2 mil cap hit. That would leave us with Briere, Giroux, JVR, Schenn, Couturier, Talbot, Simmonds, Shelly, Nodl and Read as signed forwards and Voracek as an RFA. On defense we'd have Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Walker, Lilja and Gustafsson signed with Carle and Coburn as UFA's. Bryz and Bob in net. That's roughly 49 mil spent on 10 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies. With a typical 4 mil organization growth (ave for each team) as has been seen over the last 3 years and half the new TV money (it's a deal worth 6 mil to each team and the players will see roughly half that towards the cap) we SHOULD see the cap rise to at least 70 mil for next year. That would leave us over 20 mil to resign Voracek, go after a top UFA dman like Suter (I'd offer him 75 mil over 10 years) and to resign one of both of Carle/Coburn and for one more forward.


Thus, it's not so much about "hate" on Hartnell, it's about what's best for this team now and in the very near future. Trading Hartnell can return us a valuable piece for the future and freeing up his 4.2 mil cap hit can go a long way in us being able to afford a player like Suter.

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10-23-2011, 06:33 AM
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Could have something to do with him being bad at hockey. It's pretty obvious he should be a fourth-liner on this particular team. Sure he'll go on a scoring streak here or there when he gets top six ice-time, but he isn't consistent - or skilled - enough to play even a top nine role in Philadelphia right now.
Yeah. That's what it is. He's "bad at hockey". That's how you become a fairly highly touted (although not here obviously) power forward in the NHL. By being "bad at hockey". That's how you land a hefty salary in the NHL. By being "bad at hockey".

Maybe you're just bad at "evaluating NHL level talent".

And here's my disclaimer: I am not saying Hartnell has been great so far this season (all 7 games of it which he hasn't had a steady place on any line really). I just hate statements like that. Scott Hartnell is not "bad at hockey". He's just not doing what everyone wants him to do. Which kinda seems to be his MO early in the season. So, there it is there. He'll be fine, even if it means pissing off the HF community for yet another season.

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10-23-2011, 09:31 AM
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The reason that Hartnell gets so much "hate" IS because he's been playing pretty bad right now. He's actually a much better player than he's shown so far this year and I think that the trades during the off-season definitely affect him and his desire to be here.
The one thing that really irks me about Hartnell is that this is his 11th year in the league and he still does the same crap over and over. He's careless with the puck, he takes dumb penalties at bad times, he's prone to falling over his own two feet and he always takes himself out of position looking for the big hit. You'd figure that in 11 professional seasons, he'd know by now what he can and can't get away with, yet he still continues to do stupid crap.

This was a guy who was being molded to replace Knuble and after his first ever 30 goal/60 point season in his career, he seemed to be on his way. Then, when the Flyers let Knuble walk, all of a sudden, Hartnell reverts back to idiot Hartnell and hasn't been the same player ever since. At some point, you've got to cut your losses with the guy. What he brings to the table in terms of skill doesn't equal all the negatives that he brings.

Which leads me to the point you made about the trades during the off-season definitely affecting him and his desire to be here. If it's affecting him that much, why didn't he ask to be dealt as well? If the situation weighs so heavily on his mind, why didn't he go to management and say that he no longer wants to be here because his friends are gone? I'm sure they would have accommodated him and with his No Trade Clause, I'm sure he could have pulled a Gagne and said he only wanted to go to a specific place.

I, for one, can't wait for his contract to be up or for him to get moved elsewhere. For 4.25 million a season, I certainly expected a hell of a lot more from Hartnell and he's been nothing short of a major disappointment.

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