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Scott Hartnell : why so much hate?

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Old
10-23-2011, 09:20 AM
  #26
GKJ
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Originally Posted by YuioIklo View Post
Am I the only one who still thinks that Hartnell is a decent winger that can crash the net, play physical, etc, like before? Am I the only one who still remembers all he has done for us, and how he was good on the HBL line?
No, he can do all that.


He has to want to do it though.

And when he does, he has to not blow the play up.

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10-23-2011, 12:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by sauce88 View Post
Sure he's streaky but that's what you say about a player when you look at stats. Hartnell has played the worse than any forward thus far on the flyers and it has nothing to do with stats. His work ethic, stupidity and knack for being a black hole on every line he's been on so far plus his 4.2 million dollar salary make it clear that it's time for him to get the ****ing boot.
It's not just about looking at stats. It's about putting things in perspective and not wanting to get rid of someone every time they go through a bad stretch. Hartnell has a tendency to go through stretches where he looks like ass. It's frustrating and I'm not excusing his play, but I'm confident he will score 20+ goals like he usually does.

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10-23-2011, 12:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SgtJoseph View Post
My bad, i thought for sure during the game they said Hartnell got the 2nd assist on the one goal, but maybe that was changed after review ?

And yes i do agree Hartnell is the " easiest" scape goat....That's just the way it goes when you are the type player he is.He is not a highly skilled player, never was, or will be....He is an old school North South type net crasher, who can clean up the garbage out front.He did a pretty good job at that with Briere and Leino ? But its not happening as of now...How is Leino doing ?
That's all well and good when he's actually doing it, but he's not doing it and taking his usual bad penalties and blind passes as well. Simmonds also seems to be doing a better job at it then Hartnell.

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Old
10-23-2011, 12:21 PM
  #29
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I'll withhold my judgement until he gets a few games playing next to Briere.

At this point, I'm just questioning why that hasn't happened yet.

Hartnell - Giroux - Jagr ???? Really, Lavi??!

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10-23-2011, 12:36 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Here's the thing, we have 10 legit forwards to play in only 9 spots in the top 9. Somebody who doesn't diserve and is far too good to be there HAS to play on the 4th line right now. To make it even worse and to show you just how bad it really really is, all 10 of those guys would be in the top 6 in all but about 8-10 teams in the NHL. THAT'S how top heavy we are and just how rediculously stacked we are right now.


The reason that Hartnell gets so much "hate" IS because he's been playing pretty bad right now. He's actually a much better player than he's shown so far this year and I think that the trades during the off-season definitely affect him and his desire to be here.


Now, out of Briere, Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, JVR, Jagr, Voracek, Simmonds, Hartnell and Read, who would you move if you had to move one of them??? Briere = playoff monster so he stays. Giroux = franchise player so he stays. JVR, well we wouldn't part with him for Pronger and we just signed him to a very nice deal so I really don't think he's out the door any time soon. Read = cheap player & playing out of his mind (Calder canidate play right now) so I can't see him getting traded. Schenn & Couturier = our future depth at center maintainig us as being srtong down the middle so I doublt they get dealt unless it's for an elite level dman (like Suter or Weber early in the season). Voracek was suppose to be the center-piece in the Carter deal so I think the orgainzation is pretty high on him and that they'll wait and see what they have in him as opposed to trading him just a few months after dealing a former 40-goal scorer to get him. Simmonds can do pretty much everything that Hartnell can do (though with more fighting and fewer stupid penalties) at roughtly 1/3rd the cost so I think they'd be looking to keep him over Hartnell.

That leaves Hartnell as the odd-man out. Hartnell has proven to be a 25-25 man over the last few years here in Philly. He DEFINITELY has value in a trade. He should return a mid to late 1st or a 2nd tier prospect (think 7.5B or 8.0C ranking on HF). If we could deal Hartnell back to Nashville for their 1st this year we would be looking at 2 picks most likelt in the 18-24 range. With as strong and deep as this draft class is that's like having 2 picks in the 10-15 range in a typical draft year.

Now lets take this just one step further. By dealing Hartnell we'd free up his 4.2 mil cap hit. That would leave us with Briere, Giroux, JVR, Schenn, Couturier, Talbot, Simmonds, Shelly, Nodl and Read as signed forwards and Voracek as an RFA. On defense we'd have Timonen, Pronger, Meszaros, Walker, Lilja and Gustafsson signed with Carle and Coburn as UFA's. Bryz and Bob in net. That's roughly 49 mil spent on 10 forwards, 6 dmen and 2 goalies. With a typical 4 mil organization growth (ave for each team) as has been seen over the last 3 years and half the new TV money (it's a deal worth 6 mil to each team and the players will see roughly half that towards the cap) we SHOULD see the cap rise to at least 70 mil for next year. That would leave us over 20 mil to resign Voracek, go after a top UFA dman like Suter (I'd offer him 75 mil over 10 years) and to resign one of both of Carle/Coburn and for one more forward.


Thus, it's not so much about "hate" on Hartnell, it's about what's best for this team now and in the very near future. Trading Hartnell can return us a valuable piece for the future and freeing up his 4.2 mil cap hit can go a long way in us being able to afford a player like Suter.
That's an excellent analogy....We have a heck of a situation for sure, hopefully Hartnell will start clicking so that he helps our club, and so that he redeems good trade value if that's the direction things go...We are pretty well full of good wingers certainly.

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Old
10-23-2011, 12:57 PM
  #31
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In 4 years with the Flyers, he's ranked 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 9th in the league in minor penalties. To me, that more than off-sets his 23-26-49 average on a $4.2M cap hit.

And this has nothing to do with "Carter being gone, so Hartnell is the new whipping boy." Many people here have wanted to get rid of Hartnell's contract for 2 seasons now.

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10-23-2011, 01:41 PM
  #32
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Hey, remember that time during a critical juncture in the game where Scott Hartnell got pulled from the bottom of a pile and escorted to the penalty box?

Like, last game... and the game before that... and the game before that?

It's not even his play that bothers me so much. After a sloppy first period against Vancouver when the team just needed to get off the ice, Hartnell flopped to the ground and started wrestling with no one in particular for 30 seconds. I wanted to throw my TV out the window.

On a team where steady veteran influence is a precious commodity, he offers none.

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Old
10-23-2011, 01:45 PM
  #33
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We need to lose a top 9 forward and he seems like the perfect candidate. He has trade value, and could bring back a respectable defensive prospect or even a first in this years draft. Schenn showed last night that when he is in the middle of the ice he plays well. Hell, even briere looked good on the wing last night.

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Old
10-23-2011, 01:51 PM
  #34
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If Hartnell is traded tomorrow, everyone is crying we need a physical presence who can score come January (or sooner).

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10-23-2011, 01:54 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
If Hartnell is traded tomorrow, everyone is crying we need a physical presence who can score come January (or sooner).
If Hartnell is still here, there is a decent chance that everyone will be crying that we need a physical presence who can score come January.

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10-23-2011, 01:59 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
If Hartnell is traded tomorrow, everyone is crying we need a physical presence who can score come January (or sooner).
Your just afraid Randy Jones will be coming back in the deal...straight up.

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10-23-2011, 02:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Your just afraid Randy Jones will be coming back in the deal...straight up.
Well, yeah, but I didn't think it needed to be said.

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Old
10-23-2011, 03:01 PM
  #38
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Harts has always been one of those players where you get as much...if not more...bad plays than good plays out of him.

I finally had enough of Scott Hartnell during last years playoffs where it was so hard to score on Timmy and we finally scored only to have it waved off because Hartnell did something idiotic.

I'll cheer for him when he occasionally does something good, but that is far and few between anymore.

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Old
10-23-2011, 03:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
If Hartnell is traded tomorrow, everyone is crying we need a physical presence who can score come January (or sooner).
Hartnell may or may not get traded but something has to give we only have 21 thousand in cap space not enough to go through the season for callups and injuries should get interesting soon to see who ends up going.Hartnell if we get a good return yes or just waive or trade Shelley and Walker would make me happy.I like the team direction we are going i see Rinaldo and maybe Z coming back after we get rid of dead weight...

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10-23-2011, 03:04 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
If Hartnell is traded tomorrow, everyone is crying we need a physical presence who can score come January (or sooner).
Never happen we have simmonds to replace hartnell and he actually does it.....

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10-23-2011, 03:46 PM
  #41
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Hartnell is a proven player that can score points. Having him and Simmonds on this team is a big plus and once Hartnell gets going we will be tough to beat. We just need him back on a line with Briere....

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10-23-2011, 04:23 PM
  #42
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I really think Hartnell will eventually be the odd man out. I like what Hartnell brings to the team when he's on his game, but when he's doing his bonehead stuff, (bad penalties, going for unnecessary hits) he becomes a liability to a team. I would however like to see what a Hartnell-Briere-Voracek line could do. I feel like Voracek could be what Leino was last year to that line, and it will get both of all of them going.

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10-23-2011, 04:29 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
I really think Hartnell will eventually be the odd man out. I like what Hartnell brings to the team when he's on his game, but when he's doing his bonehead stuff, (bad penalties, going for unnecessary hits) he becomes a liability to a team. I would however like to see what a Hartnell-Briere-Voracek line could do. I feel like Voracek could be what Leino was last year to that line, and it will get both of all of them going.
That line looks great, but the only bad thing about that would be demoting Simmonds to the third line.

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10-23-2011, 04:34 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
That line looks great, but the only bad thing about that would be demoting Simmonds to the third line.
I see what you're saying, but I'd also like to see what Simmonds could do on Giroux's wing with either Jagr or JVR on the other side. I think Giroux's speed and playmaking could give a guy like Simmonds more space to get to the net and get some ugly ones, something that he's been doing excellently since he got here.

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10-23-2011, 04:42 PM
  #45
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For the time being I think we should just keep him and rotate one of each of the 10 out of the lineup to give them rest every 10 games. If we do that for the first 25 games of the season that would mean that every one of them would get 2 rames off (games 6-25). Then we can re-examine where we are and move someone around Christmas time if we need.

We don't NEED to move anyone right now and we don't have any holes that need filled on the current roster (holes in the prospect pool is a separate issue).

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Old
10-23-2011, 05:38 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Hartnell may or may not get traded but something has to give we only have 21 thousand in cap space not enough to go through the season for callups and injuries
Not Hartnell's fault, and doesn't invalidate his spot on the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Never happen we have simmonds to replace hartnell and he actually does it.....
Simmonds has a career high of 40 points, and a track record even streakier than Hartnell's. You're demonstrating a wonderfully short memory.

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Old
10-23-2011, 07:28 PM
  #47
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Yeah. That's what it is. He's "bad at hockey". That's how you become a fairly highly touted (although not here obviously) power forward in the NHL. By being "bad at hockey". That's how you land a hefty salary in the NHL. By being "bad at hockey".

Maybe you're just bad at "evaluating NHL level talent".

And here's my disclaimer: I am not saying Hartnell has been great so far this season (all 7 games of it which he hasn't had a steady place on any line really). I just hate statements like that. Scott Hartnell is not "bad at hockey". He's just not doing what everyone wants him to do. Which kinda seems to be his MO early in the season. So, there it is there. He'll be fine, even if it means pissing off the HF community for yet another season.
What flashes has he shown indicating that he'll be fine?

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Old
10-23-2011, 07:49 PM
  #48
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What flashes has he shown indicating that he'll be fine?
He's still taking the usual stupid penalties that he takes.

Which leads some people to believe he's still the same player and therefore the offense will come.

If we go by this theory actually, Hartnell may end up w/ 60 or 70 points this year, since he's taken even more dumb penalties than usual to start out the season. He's upped his game.

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Old
10-23-2011, 10:34 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
In 4 years with the Flyers, he's ranked 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 9th in the league in minor penalties. To me, that more than off-sets his 23-26-49 average on a $4.2M cap hit.

And this has nothing to do with "Carter being gone, so Hartnell is the new whipping boy." Many people here have wanted to get rid of Hartnell's contract for 2 seasons now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Readyrock View Post
Hey, remember that time during a critical juncture in the game where Scott Hartnell got pulled from the bottom of a pile and escorted to the penalty box?

Like, last game... and the game before that... and the game before that?

It's not even his play that bothers me so much. After a sloppy first period against Vancouver when the team just needed to get off the ice, Hartnell flopped to the ground and started wrestling with no one in particular for 30 seconds. I wanted to throw my TV out the window.

On a team where steady veteran influence is a precious commodity, he offers none.
This is basically how I feel. Even when he's on his game, which he definitely isn't, he's still not that good and comes at a relatively high price tag.

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Old
10-23-2011, 11:18 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
If Hartnell is traded tomorrow, everyone is crying we need a physical presence who can score come January (or sooner).
Hartnell is going to get more hate now that Carter is gone. Not that I dont think the hate is deserved right now. But he isnt alone. More then a few guys need to step it up. I am not his biggest fan by any means, but it is far too early to panic.

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