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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract?

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Old
10-23-2011, 04:24 PM
  #51
decadentia
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We would have won a bidding war with Washington. They had much less room to work with.
Washington's GM was on record many times saying they didn't expect to land Vokoun, and only last minute did it come together. If we had planned on going after him, we most definitely would have got him over Washington.

I definitely remember a bunch of us predicting pretty much exactly how it went down...and to toot my own horn, I was quite vocal about Vokoun likely signing for cheap and making more sense (especially taking Bobrovsky into consideration).

But, now we're here...that's the way she ****ing goes.


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10-23-2011, 04:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yes, he COULD have been had for less, but he wanted to play in Washington. Just because he accepted less money in Washington does not mean he would have done the same here. We've had this discussion already. This isn't NHL 12, just because a player is a free agent doesn't mean he is going to sign with your team because you offer him a contract. Vokoun may have had Washington #1 on his list regardless of money. He may never have had any interest in Philly regardless of money. Pretty sure he said that he took less money and turned down other offers to play in Washington. Go look at the thread about this from a month or two ago so we don't have to get into the same argument. My position hasn't changed and neither has yours.
1) He did not want to play at Washington at all costs. He fired his agent because he was unhappy with his contract.
2) He chose Washington because he felt they had the best chance to win the Cup which would boost his value on free agency next summer.
3) #2 wouldn't be an issue because the Flyers would have offered a multi-year deal.
4) If the Flyers waited until July 1 they would have had both Bryzgalov and Vokoun on the market. The Flyers were the only team that had cap space to spend on a goalie. They were also the only contending team that had a legit need for a goalie. The Flyers would have been the most appealing destination and no one was going to get in a bidding war with them. They would have ended up with one of the two for much less than the contract they handed to Bryzgalov.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
And Bryz is better than a majority of the goalies on that list. You know, it is possible that a team would try to upgrade and grab a player of Bryz's level is he were to become available. Honestly, like I said before, nobody actually knows what the market was for Bryz in the offseason. We can speculate all day, but if the Flyers felt that this is what would have to be done in order to get a deal done, then I would think that they knew what they were doing. Especially considering they can get a better feel for what the market is.

Btw, I'm not even trying to defend signing him to that money and term. I think it's absurd to sign any player to a nine year deal for a variety of reasons. I would have easily agreed to sign him for 4-5 years though. The only thing I wanted to point out was everything you had written can only be called speculation at best.
There is a thing called the salary cap. How many teams could afford to sign Bryzgalov after they already had a starter signed. What team on that list could have realistically offered Bryzgalov that contract?

It's not speculation. Just because you remain in denial over the realities of the market doesn't mean I'm speculating. The fact is since Luongo no teams have been handing out these contracts to goalies.





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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
While I agree with this, There is also another option. Bryz goes to Russia for 5 mill per and then possibly us an Washington end up both going for Vokoun. This creates a bidding war for him, and if we lose out, then we have Bob and we listen to EVERYONE ***** how we would not pay $ to have a top 8-10 goalie again.
Washington does not have any cap space. There was not going to be a bidding war with them. They also did not need a goalie long term because they have Neuvirth and Holtby. The only reason why they signed Vokoun was because a $1.5M deal for one year was too good for them to pass on. They were not in the market for a starter long term.

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10-23-2011, 05:14 PM
  #53
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we never had the cap space either, but we easily changed that. WSH could have done the same thing

If you don't think WSH would have had any interest in Bryz if he hit the open market, you're delusional

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10-23-2011, 05:25 PM
  #54
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we never had the cap space either, but we easily changed that. WSH could have done the same thing

If you don't think WSH would have had any interest in Bryz if he hit the open market, you're delusional
Just because Holmgren was fool enough to blow up his roster doesn't mean Washington was willing to do the same. Who were they going to move for Bryzgalov?

You're the delusional one because you refuse to take off your orange and black glasses. Washington is actually able to develop goalies. They had no need for Bryzgalov and certainly not at that price.

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10-23-2011, 05:25 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
we never had the cap space either, but we easily changed that. WSH could have done the same thing

If you don't think WSH would have had any interest in Bryz if he hit the open market, you're delusional
Nope, teams never move salary to sign a player that they want. I can almost guarantee that the flyers weren't the only team that was interested in a top ten goaltender in Bryzgalov. But such is life on this board. Holmgren is a moron for getting Bryz and to say otherwise would be pure blasphemy.

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10-23-2011, 05:27 PM
  #56
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Just because Holmgren was fool enough to blow up his roster doesn't mean Washington was willing to do the same. Who were they going to move for Bryzgalov?

You're the delusional one because you refuse to take off your orange and black glasses. Washington is actually able to develop goalies. They had no need for Bryzgalov and certainly not at that price.
Except for the fact that this roster is better then the one we had last year. I can say that despite Mike Richards being my favorite player in the league. Or should we have continued with 11 top nine forwards and Leighton in net?

I still think it will take time for the team to gain some chemistry, but I think overall, this team will be a better team than what we had for the past two seasons.


Last edited by flyershockey: 10-23-2011 at 05:28 PM. Reason: add something
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10-23-2011, 05:30 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Nope, teams never move salary to sign a player that they want. I can almost guarantee that the flyers weren't the only team that was interested in a top ten goaltender in Bryzgalov. But such is life on this board. Holmgren is a moron for getting Bryz and to say otherwise would be pure blasphemy.
Have you seen his contract? Its moronic.

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10-23-2011, 05:34 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
There is a thing called the salary cap. How many teams could afford to sign Bryzgalov after they already had a starter signed. What team on that list could have realistically offered Bryzgalov that contract?

It's not speculation. Just because you remain in denial over the realities of the market doesn't mean I'm speculating. The fact is since Luongo no teams have been handing out these contracts to goalies.
If a team wanted to get Bryz, they would have moved salary. And if that team had to move their starter in order to get Bryz, then they would have done it; especially if it was an upgrade over what they already have, which Bryz is for a lot of teams.

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10-23-2011, 05:36 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Have you seen his contract? Its moronic.
The contract isn't the best, but it's far from moronic. The same people that are complaining about the contract would be complaining if we hadn't gotten a goalie of Bryzgalov's talent in the offseason. Make up your mind. Im just happy that the organization finally decided that second rate goaltending wasn't going to cut it anymore.

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10-23-2011, 05:36 PM
  #60
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5W-2L-1OTL

I wasn't expecting this thread so soon.

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10-23-2011, 05:42 PM
  #61
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Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. This thread is retarded. Watch hockey. His only sin this early in the season with this team, is being overconfident in his defensemen to read his mind. Other than that he is quick as hell, technically efficient in his ability to cut down all angles, and uses his big body to stand tall through traffic. I have not seen him overcommit since the regular season started. I think he looks really good. He will only get better. It's rocktober. Save this discussion for the playoffs. Yeah. the playoffs. the thing i think a lot of bandwagoners already struggle to forsee. A couple of crap losses. It's the puzzle in front of him that is being scrambled night in and night out that has him lookin slightly "off". I'm obviously a big Bryzgalov fan but even those who aren't have to notice the calm mentality taking place back there. Couple that with the funfest he offer's to some lame personalitites in the locker room and this deal, so far, looks like gold to me. Can't wait until 24/7. Also cant wait til he lifts that cup over his head in an orange blurr

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10-23-2011, 05:43 PM
  #62
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5W-2L-1OTL

I wasn't expecting this thread so soon.

This...

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10-23-2011, 05:44 PM
  #63
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This has been beaten to death already.

Washington, Colorado, Detroit, Philly, Tampa and Phoenix were all in the market for a goalie. Just because they had a goalie penciled in as their starter does not mean that they would not have been disinterested in acquiring Vokoun or Bryzgalov.

That's like saying the Sabres were not interested in Brad Richards because Derek Roy is their #1 center. Each GM was looking at options to make his team better. Period.

Vokoun is also on record as saying he received offers from Detroit. The fact is that had we waited, we could have ended up with a moderate steal ($3-5m for either of the two big goalies) or we could have ended up with no goalie at all. Instead, we invested an extra ~$.6m to assure that we would not have a goaltending controversy in the near future. I'm okay with that.

The fact is that there is a difference between being "impatient" as many of you like to say and being safe. The Flyers played it safe. They were simply not going to run the risk of ending up with nobody.

You internet prophets can say "I predicted it, it was just so obvious!" all you want, but had we not landed Bryzgalov before July 1st, the game could have taken a turn, and we could have ended up with another year of Bob/Boosh.


EDIT: And Bryz was not brought in for us to win division banners. We had that last season with Bob. Bryz was brought in so we would have stability when it came down to the wire. If none of you remember, last April, nobody had any idea who was our #1 goalie in the playoffs. This year there will be no doubt. So will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract? Why dont we wait until the ****ing playoffs. The games in October have nothing to do with his living up to his contract.

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10-23-2011, 05:46 PM
  #64
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Except for the fact that this roster is better then the one we had last year. I can say that despite Mike Richards being my favorite player in the league. Or should we have continued with 11 top nine forwards and Leighton in net?

I still think it will take time for the team to gain some chemistry, but I think overall, this team will be a better team than what we had for the past two seasons.
Regardless of what you feel about the Flyers' deal the fact that the Flyers made these moves for a goalie isn't proof that another team would do the same thing. Washington has never felt goaltending was their main problem.

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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
If a team wanted to get Bryz, they would have moved salary. And if that team had to move their starter in order to get Bryz, then they would have done it; especially if it was an upgrade over what they already have, which Bryz is for a lot of teams.
Okay fine. Some team trades half their team away to get Bryz and then the Flyers sign Vokoun to a short term deal. The Flyers get the better and more consistent goalie for less money and lets them develop Bob to take over in 2-3 years. By then Hovinen may also be ready to step up.

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10-23-2011, 05:55 PM
  #65
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This has been beaten to death already.

Washington, Colorado, Detroit, Philly, Tampa and Phoenix were all in the market for a goalie. Just because they had a goalie penciled in as their starter does not mean that they would not have been disinterested in acquiring Vokoun or Bryzgalov.

That's like saying the Sabres were not interested in Brad Richards because Derek Roy is their #1 center. Each GM was looking at options to make his team better. Period.

Vokoun is also on record as saying he received offers from Detroit. The fact is that had we waited, we could have ended up with a moderate steal ($3-5m for either of the two big goalies) or we could have ended up with no goalie at all. Instead, we invested an extra ~$.6m to assure that we would not have a goaltending controversy in the near future. I'm okay with that.

The fact is that there is a difference between being "impatient" as many of you like to say and being safe. The Flyers played it safe. They were simply not going to run the risk of ending up with nobody.

You internet prophets can say "I predicted it, it was just so obvious!" all you want, but had we not landed Bryzgalov before July 1st, the game could have taken a turn, and we could have ended up with another year of Bob/Boosh.
Once again:

Washington - literally has no cap space. They could not afford to sign a goalie for more than what they paid Vokoun

Colorado - Rebuilding team. They traded for a younger, cheaper, option that will grow with their team.

Detroit - Did not have the cap space. They do not believe in handing out such deals to goalies. Detroit was only interested in Vokoun on a small deal like the one he signed in Washington.

Tampa - Signed Roloson before July 1. Did not have the cap space.


Phoenix - Team with financial issues. They balked Bryzgalov's asking price and let him walk.


None of these teams had the cap space or the interest in signing a goalie to a 5+ M deal.



Signing a goalie to a 9 year deal is not playing it safe. There hasn't been a huge goalie contract that has been worth it. DiPietro's deal is the laughing stock of the league. Vancouver has pretty much regretted Luongo's deal from the start and he is a better goalie than Bryzgalov.

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10-23-2011, 05:58 PM
  #66
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Regardless of what you feel about the Flyers' deal the fact that the Flyers made these moves for a goalie isn't proof that another team would do the same thing. Washington has never felt goaltending was their main problem.


Okay fine. Some team trades half their team away to get Bryz and then the Flyers sign Vokoun to a short term deal. The Flyers get the better and more consistent goalie for less money and lets them develop Bob to take over in 2-3 years. By then Hovinen may also be ready to step up.
Then why did Washington trade their starter and sign Vokoun. Even if they liked Varly, they saw an upgrade and went after it. They probably would have like Bryzgalov if the flyers didn't sign him as well.

Also, the flyers didn't blow up their roster just to sign Bryzgalov. It's pretty clear by now, or at least it should be, that Richards and Carter were moved for reasons other then just signing a goalie. Im also not sold on Hovinen amounting to anything. I'll admit that I've never seen him play, but I do know that he was given up on by another team and is just now finally starting to get it together while playing in a league far less talented then he would see in North America.

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10-23-2011, 06:04 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Once again:

Washington - literally has no cap space. They could not afford to sign a goalie for more than what they paid Vokoun

Colorado - Rebuilding team. They traded for a younger, cheaper, option that will grow with their team.

Detroit - Did not have the cap space. They do not believe in handing out such deals to goalies. Detroit was only interested in Vokoun on a small deal like the one he signed in Washington.

Tampa - Signed Roloson before July 1. Did not have the cap space.


Phoenix - Team with financial issues. They balked Bryzgalov's asking price and let him walk.


None of these teams had the cap space or the interest in signing a goalie to a 5+ M deal.



Signing a goalie to a 9 year deal is not playing it safe. There hasn't been a huge goalie contract that has been worth it. DiPietro's deal is the laughing stock of the league. Vancouver has pretty much regretted Luongo's deal from the start and he is a better goalie than Bryzgalov.
Once again...you're just proving what I'm saying.

You're so focused on these rigid outlines, but they're not even close to as rigid as you want them to have been. Phoenix could have signed Vokoun...Tampa might not have signed Roloson if Bryzgalov was still available. Who is to say Colorado doesnt sign Vokoun if Varlamov isnt offered to them? Detroit had just as much space as we did...we cleared room for Bryzgalov. Why couldnt Detroit have done the same?

We signed Bryzgalov a week before free agency, assuring that he would not entertain offers from anyone else. We played it safe. There were countless variables that could have changed the game come July 1st. These were not constants as you are claiming them to be.

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10-23-2011, 06:23 PM
  #68
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Dff, do you really want to continue this? If you do, I'll respond...but right now its clearly just the exact same debate being reenacted with nothing new to be said. I personally don't really want to bother, especially since I'm stuck on my phone
No, I'm cool. That's what I said in my first post, just check back to the Vokoun thread from a month or so ago because neither of our positions have changed. Haha.

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10-23-2011, 06:49 PM
  #69
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Then why did Washington trade their starter and sign Vokoun. Even if they liked Varly, they saw an upgrade and went after it. They probably would have like Bryzgalov if the flyers didn't sign him as well.

Also, the flyers didn't blow up their roster just to sign Bryzgalov. It's pretty clear by now, or at least it should be, that Richards and Carter were moved for reasons other then just signing a goalie. Im also not sold on Hovinen amounting to anything. I'll admit that I've never seen him play, but I do know that he was given up on by another team and is just now finally starting to get it together while playing in a league far less talented then he would see in North America.
Were you paying attention this offseason? Varlamov wanted to be traded and was going to play in the KHL if he wasn't. Washington had a log jam in goal. Washington thought Vokoun was a worthy gamble since they were able to sign an elite veteran for one year. They didn't need a long term solution. If they did they would have offered Vokoun more than a year to make sure he didn't sign with Detroit.

I'm not really sold on Hovinen being anything either, but the point is a short term contract would have fit the Flyers better. The Flyers have said they believe Bob will be a starter in this league so Vokoun made more sense as a short term solution.

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Once again...you're just proving what I'm saying.

You're so focused on these rigid outlines, but they're not even close to as rigid as you want them to have been. Phoenix could have signed Vokoun...Tampa might not have signed Roloson if Bryzgalov was still available. Who is to say Colorado doesnt sign Vokoun if Varlamov isnt offered to them? Detroit had just as much space as we did...we cleared room for Bryzgalov. Why couldnt Detroit have done the same?

We signed Bryzgalov a week before free agency, assuring that he would not entertain offers from anyone else. We played it safe. There were countless variables that could have changed the game come July 1st. These were not constants as you are claiming them to be.
Sure, if you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the realities then you can say anything could have happened. The reality is the Flyers were the only team with the money to spend. They were the only contending team in real need of a starter. The odds are that the Flyers were going to land one of them. They didn't need to hand out what was by far the largest contract to be handed out to a goalie in the past 3 years because of some what if scenario. You don't manage your team in fear of failure or you end up making epic mistakes such as this contract.

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10-23-2011, 06:50 PM
  #70
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5W-2L-1OTL

I wasn't expecting this thread so soon.
You've been here long enough. This happens all the time.

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10-23-2011, 06:54 PM
  #71
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Just because Holmgren was fool enough to blow up his roster doesn't mean Washington was willing to do the same. Who were they going to move for Bryzgalov?

You're the delusional one because you refuse to take off your orange and black glasses. Washington is actually able to develop goalies. They had no need for Bryzgalov and certainly not at that price.
develop goalies? oh, you mean the goalies they've had that have played good enough to lead them to the cup? right, those goalies. the one that they traded? or the one that they thought was so good, that they went out and signed vokoun?

yes

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10-23-2011, 07:10 PM
  #72
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I will try to give another aspect in the discussion.

Do you think that Bob giving pressure ("iŽam as good as Bryz") to Bryzgalov is good for him? Or is he a goalie who donŽt stand the pressure?

He was in Phoenix the last years and there he can go shopping without being ask for signatures. He said it in an interview CSKA translates for us (thx mate again!).


IŽam asking myself the question from time to time if its not more pressure to play in Philly and to play in a town full of hockey thrilled people. And the pressure by Bob is the plus. In the near past he donŽt must fight about his job. But Bob with his preseason performance and the attention by the media is fighting for the #1!

Your thoughts?

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10-23-2011, 07:10 PM
  #73
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develop goalies? oh, you mean the goalies they've had that have played good enough to lead them to the cup? right, those goalies. the one that they traded? or the one that they thought was so good, that they went out and signed vokoun?

yes
Goaltending is not the reason the caps don't have a cup.

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10-23-2011, 07:18 PM
  #74
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Sure, if you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the realities then you can say anything could have happened. The reality is the Flyers were the only team with the money to spend. They were the only contending team in real need of a starter. The odds are that the Flyers were going to land one of them. They didn't need to hand out what was by far the largest contract to be handed out to a goalie in the past 3 years because of some what if scenario. You don't manage your team in fear of failure or you end up making epic mistakes such as this contract.
The Red Wings, Flyers and Capitals all had similar instability in net with similar cap situations.

There was absolutely no concrete reality that made Vokoun a sure thing to sign a cheap contract. If you operate like that, you run the risk of ending up with nothing. That was simply not an option.


Although considering your last sentence, this discussion is over...clearly you are the one ignorant of reality by proclaiming this contract an "epic failure" two weeks into season one...... of nine. If we win just one Cup in that time with Bryz in net, the contract will be a success. If you have such a preconception regarding the contract already (as you clearly do), it's obvious that you can not have this discussion with an open mind or with even a shred of objectivity.

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10-23-2011, 07:26 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by RevUpThoseFlyers View Post
Not asking whether he is good or not, but you would think a goalie being paid as much as him wouldn't be so average.

Will ever live up to what we pay him?
The difference in save percentage between a good goalie and bad goalie looks small on paper, but given the number of shots per night and how statistics work, it will take a very long time before we get to see what we paid for.

We're paying for a good chance that he will stand on his head come playoffs at the same time as the offense decides to click. When that happens, we win a cup. That season, he will be worth his money. We're not guaranteed anything, but it seems like we have a better than average shot.

Ideally, I would've love to find a middle ground between ****-tier goalies and gigantic contracts (I would've loved vokoun here, more than bryz), but apparently it's go big or go home. I think he'll be worth it at some point in the LONG time he is here, but it won't be obvious until later.

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