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Dump & chase : System? Or lack of talent?

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Old
10-23-2011, 02:50 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Typically when a team lacks offensive creativity, their system involves a defensive game plan, and forcing the opponent to specific areas of the ice and forcing the opponent to make mistakes/turnovers.

And that's what we are trying to accomplish.

Its clear we need a real second line. And at least one more winger with high-end skill.

Targeting Parise in the summer would be smart. If the numbers work.

Kreider needs to be on this team, we need the outside speed.

X. Richards. Gaborik
Parise. Stepan. X
Dubinsky. Anisimov. Callahan
X. Boyle. Prust
Thats a helluva prospective lineup. I agree that we're missing top-six talent, even with the acquisition of Richards. At this point in their careers, Callahan and Anisimov are not second-line players. Stepan cannot also be relied upon this year. And Boyle-Prust-Feds is a very good fourth-line, nothing more. They should not be getting 15+ minutes a game.

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10-23-2011, 02:58 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Typically when a team lacks offensive creativity, their system involves a defensive game plan, and forcing the opponent to specific areas of the ice and forcing the opponent to make mistakes/turnovers.

And that's what we are trying to accomplish.

Its clear we need a real second line. And at least one more winger with high-end skill.

Targeting Parise in the summer would be smart. If the numbers work.

Kreider needs to be on this team, we need the outside speed.

X. Richards. Gaborik
Parise. Stepan. X
Dubinsky. Anisimov. Callahan
X. Boyle. Prust
I can't see how that could possibly work under the cap while icing a competitive defense.

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Old
10-23-2011, 03:01 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
I can't see how that could possibly work under the cap while icing a competitive defense.
Staal. Girardi
McDonagh. Sauer
Del Zotto. Erixon

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10-23-2011, 03:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Thats a helluva prospective lineup. I agree that we're missing top-six talent, even with the acquisition of Richards. At this point in their careers, Callahan and Anisimov are not second-line players. Stepan cannot also be relied upon this year. And Boyle-Prust-Feds is a very good fourth-line, nothing more. They should not be getting 15+ minutes a game.
Hate to say it but I consider Callahan and Anisimov 3rd liners.
Dubinsky, borderline 2nd liner.

Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan is an ideal 3rd line.

When, Prust-Boyle-Fedotanko is your 3rd line, you got talent issues.


This is what I consider a talented top six:

Parise-Richards-Gaborik (FA line. But whatcha going to do?)
Kreider-Stepan-?
Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan
Prust-Boyle-Rupp

Now this kind of team can go places.

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10-23-2011, 03:06 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Staal. Girardi
McDonagh. Sauer
Del Zotto. Erixon
The bolded will all be RFA this season or next. 2 years until Girardi is UFA and Erixon is RFA. Stepan is an RFA this summer, and AA will be RFA next summer.

Something would have to give.

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10-23-2011, 03:07 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
I can't see how that could possibly work under the cap while icing a competitive defense.
I agree. Ideally, this is a team we'd like to see, but there's no way it could work in a capped league. That's far too much cap space being taken up by the 3rd line.

While we do have some cap space coming off the books with Wolski next season, it's not enough to sign Parise and another top 6 winger. Also, we need to re-sign Prust, who is turning UFA at season's end, as well as Del Zotto who is an RFA.

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10-23-2011, 03:16 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
I can't see how that could possibly work under the cap while icing a competitive defense.
X 1 = Parise UFA
X 2 = Chris Kreider ELC
X 3 = Jesper Fasth ELC

FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($1.500m) / Brad Richards ($6.666m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Zach Parise ($7.000m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) /Jesper Fasth ($0.750m)
Brandon Dubinsky ($4.200m) / Artem Anisimov ($1.875m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Carl Hagelin ($0.875m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Brandon Prust UFA($1.500m)
Michael Rupp ($1.500m)

DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Daniel Girardi ($3.325m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / Tim Erixon ($1.750m)
Mikael del Zotto RFA ($1.500m) / Mike Sauer ($1.250m)
Vet D ($0.800m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Marty Biron UFA ($1.000m)

BUYOUTS: Chris Drury ($1.666m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,658,334; BONUSES: $1,462,500
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $641,666

Works capewise. Barely. With some tweeking - it could work in theory. But we will never see this lineup as a NYR team...

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10-23-2011, 03:30 PM
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Nexus, I couldn't agree with you more! Watching this team is as exciting as taking your sister to the prom!
what's wrong with Nexus sister?

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10-23-2011, 03:32 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post

X. Richards. Gaborik
Parise. Stepan. X
Dubinsky. Anisimov. Callahan
X. Boyle. Prust
Thank the lord, someone besides me hasn't had the "Pack Line" punch...Actually putting Callahan and Co. where they belong !!!! Even now minus Parise we should be infusing youth, not clinging to the wonder years with Fedetenko, or feel good guy's like Christensen. Time for Tort's to put his personal feelings aside and stick Avery back in the lineup..

Wolski - Richards - Gaborik

Hagelin - Stepan - Dubinsky

Avery - Anisimov - Callahan

Prust - Boyle - Rupp

Not that Hagelin is ready for 2nd line time, but you've gotta start somewhere, sometime...

With Wolski out:

MZA - Richards - Gaborik

Hagelin - Stepan - Dubinsky

Avery - Anisimov - Callahan

Prust - Boyle - Rupp

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10-23-2011, 03:37 PM
  #35
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Dump and chase works well against defensive teams. But when your dumping and chasing against the Oilers you know somethings wrong. And we might be the only team that dumps and chases on the powerplay. Somethings gotta be changed.

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10-23-2011, 09:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Thats a helluva prospective lineup. I agree that we're missing top-six talent, even with the acquisition of Richards. At this point in their careers, Callahan and Anisimov are not second-line players. Stepan cannot also be relied upon this year. And Boyle-Prust-Feds is a very good fourth-line, nothing more. They should not be getting 15+ minutes a game.
On a Stanley Cup team -- Callahan is most def. a 3rd liner. Dubinsky is borderline, however.

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10-23-2011, 09:50 PM
  #37
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In the Calgary game 2 of the 3 goals scored (including the game winner) came after the Rangers gained the blueline, without dumping the puck in.
Vancouver: 3 of the 4 goals on the rush
Islanders:1 of the 2 goals scored on the rush.
Anaheim:The 1 goal scored on the rush.
LA:2 of the 2 goals scored after gaining the blue line on the rush

Maybe it is time for Torts to reevaluate his own system and what this team is capable of.

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10-23-2011, 10:13 PM
  #38
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Dump in chase just sounds bad but certain coaches have a ton of success doing it. Dan Bylsma preaches getting the puck in deep and he's a major reason why the Penguins won the cup. He's also a major reason why they continue to succeed without their star players.

Also, choosing not to dump the puck in is easier said then done.

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10-23-2011, 10:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Bienvenue a New York View Post
Dump and chase works well against defensive teams. But when your dumping and chasing against the Oilers you know somethings wrong. And we might be the only team that dumps and chases on the powerplay. Somethings gotta be changed.
God I hate that. We choose to just smack the puck around the boards behind the net instead of simply going back to an open point man upon gaining the zone. So dumb.

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10-23-2011, 10:45 PM
  #40
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Against the Oilers, they dumped it in while on the powerplay. I am pretty sure it was on the 5-on-4, but looking at how they are doing things it may have been on the 5-on-3. Okay, it probably was not on the 2 man advantage,I said that to make a point. They just look so constipated, so un-free in their movement. Where's the fun, where's the natural stuff they learned long ago as superlative hockey players?
Go watch what might be called a lesser team, let's pick the Leafs. They don't have this frozen method of playing. They play hell-bent with all kinds of movement and freelancing. Sure, they might overextend themselves and pay for it, but at least they are going for it.
I just don't get it. Why do the Rangers play like they are skating in mud, even when they are on the best sheet of ice in the whole league in Edmonton?
Hint: it's not the quality of ice, it's some other thing that makes them their own worst enemy.

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10-23-2011, 10:47 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Hate to say it but I consider Callahan and Anisimov 3rd liners.
Dubinsky, borderline 2nd liner.

Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan is an ideal 3rd line.

When, Prust-Boyle-Fedotanko is your 3rd line, you got talent issues.


This is what I consider a talented top six:

Parise-Richards-Gaborik (FA line. But whatcha going to do?)
Kreider-Stepan-?



Now this kind of team can go places.




Seriously did u guys watch Callahan play last year he was playing like first line talent. Averaged more then a point a game for last 30 games. He didnt even score a point till like the 14th game of season . Callahan a first liner on most teams. If you dont see that then you just read boxscores and dont watch games. Please stop posting if you dont watch the Ranger games. Most creative Ranger by far in offense zone second half of last season.

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Old
10-23-2011, 10:50 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Dump in chase just sounds bad but certain coaches have a ton of success doing it. Dan Bylsma preaches getting the puck in deep and he's a major reason why the Penguins won the cup. He's also a major reason why they continue to succeed without their key players.
Also, choosing not to dump the puck in is easier said then done.
The difference is the penguins players know when to dump it softly and when to shoot it hard around. We seem to do the opposite every time. If we don't have any speed we throw it softly and their D gets it. And if we do have speed we dump it hard and their goalie stops it and moves it to his D and were always a step or two or three late. These kinds of simple adjustments are NEVER addressed by Tortorella. Bylsma is all about these subtle adjustments and is a great tactician. That's a big difference these days when every team is so close.

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Old
10-23-2011, 11:03 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
On a Stanley Cup team -- Callahan is most def. a 3rd liner. Dubinsky is borderline, however.
Ruslan Fedotenko was on Tampa's 2nd line the season that they won the cup. He even pulles significant PP time. Callahan is a far superior player to Ruslan.

When the Pens won the cup, their 2nd line wingers were a rotation of Miro Satan, Pascal Dupuis, and Petr Sykora. At this stage in his career Callahan is superior to any of those players at that time.

On most (Not all, I will admit that) of recent Stanley cup winning teams Callahan and Dubinsky would very easily be top 6 forwards. The notable easy exception is the Hawks, and I doubt we will see that good a team again in a long time.

The big difference is that Pittsburgh, and Tampa, despite having weaker 2nd line guys than the Rangers, had a more complete top 3 forwards. Pitt had Malkin, Crosby, Staal. Tampa had Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis (Stillman was also a big contributor)

The Rangers have Richards, Gaborik, BLANK. And that is a significant BLANK. We had hoped it could be Wolski. He was never really given a significant opportunity.

Even so, I think that these "struggles" are just that and the team will be just fine.

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10-23-2011, 11:09 PM
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On a Stanley Cup team -- Callahan is most def. a 3rd liner. Dubinsky is borderline, however.
I just can't agree with this in any sense.

As SLU said, look at the last few SCW teams - Sykora, Satan, and Fedotenko were second liners on these teams. Mark Recchi was in the Bruins' top-6 last year.

Callahan was playing at a 30-30 pace last season - in this day and age, those are legitimate first line numbers.

IMHO, he is the epitome of the perfect second line winger. Excels in each facet of the game, works hard every shift, understand his role, and can play in every situation. He's a better hockey player than most team's 2nd liners.

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10-23-2011, 11:27 PM
  #45
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I just can't agree with this in any sense.

As SLU said, look at the last few SCW teams - Sykora, Satan, and Fedotenko were second liners on these teams. Mark Recchi was in the Bruins' top-6 last year.

Callahan was playing at a 30-30 pace last season - in this day and age, those are legitimate first line numbers.

IMHO, he is the epitome of the perfect second line winger. Excels in each facet of the game, works hard every shift, understand his role, and can play in every situation. He's a better hockey player than most team's 2nd liners.

Couldnt agree more.Kudos my friend

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Old
10-23-2011, 11:28 PM
  #46
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I agree with those that believe we rely too heavily on the dump and chase. IMO this team needs to generate more chances coming across the blueline rather than simply dumping it in whenever the opportunity is given.
With that being said, IF we're going to rely on the dump and chase (which is clearly the case) we have to generate chances off the cycle, which hasnt been the case thus far. The problem hasnt been retrieving the puck off the dump or cycling the puck along the boards. The problem has been cycling for 45 seconds only to eventually lose possession and get zero legitimate scoring chances. They need to figure out how to free some guys up in scoring areas and cash in after working a good cycle, or theyre going to continue to be offensively challenged in the long run.

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10-23-2011, 11:32 PM
  #47
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The big issue isn't the style of play. Most goals scored off the rush in the NHL are the result of a turnover. Right now, with the Rangers missing 2 of their top 4 defenders - they're missing half of their stoppers. Those guys that snuff out an offensive play before it develops and then quickly turn it back up with a strong outlet pass.

In other words, the current D is not causing enough turnovers. They're merely containing the other team. As an example, the Oilers had the puck far too much in the offensive zone last night and all we could do is contain. We never had the puck. Aside from McD and Girardi, the D isn't making those small plays to quickly get possession and turn the play around.

When you have Staal, Sauer, Girardi and McDonagh out there in the top 4 - we should do a better job at stopping the other team's offense. Interrupting their possession. Furthermore, not having Staal and Sauer out there, is killing the break out. Far too often we're throwing out of the D zone just to get it to center ice. Again, it's all about containment, not making plays.

The Rangers problems seem like they are in the offensive zone - and some of them are - but the real problem here is possession. They can't get the puck back. They need Staal and Sauer. It's a big problem against faster, offensively skilled teams. It tires out the whole team to play a containment game. Makes the forecheck very disjointed and hard to keep up. And also leads to some of the lazy penalties we're seeing.

That's why Torts was yelling about getting possession from the Oilers before the game. He knows it's the biggest problem.

Yes, we will need two more skilled forwards at some point to seriously contend for the cup or at least the presidents trophy. But it shouldn't stop us from being competitive most games just like last year.

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10-23-2011, 11:37 PM
  #48
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10-23-2011, 11:53 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by gers View Post
I agree with those that believe we rely too heavily on the dump and chase. IMO this team needs to generate more chances coming across the blueline rather than simply dumping it in whenever the opportunity is given.
With that being said, IF we're going to rely on the dump and chase (which is clearly the case) we have to generate chances off the cycle, which hasnt been the case thus far. The problem hasnt been retrieving the puck off the dump or cycling the puck along the boards. The problem has been cycling for 45 seconds only to eventually lose possession and get zero legitimate scoring chances. They need to figure out how to free some guys up in scoring areas and cash in after working a good cycle, or theyre going to continue to be offensively challenged in the long run.
If a team is quick and finds an open player, the cycle is worth it. The cycle is not worth anything if it does not result in unpredictable movement for the opposition. The Rangers possession behind the net to the corners is something the opposition will accept. What I don't see enough of is possession in front of the net, at least not for any length of time that matters.

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10-24-2011, 12:03 AM
  #50
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OH MY. We lost another game. Well, we better massively underrate every player on our team, insist that anybody who believes in them is a fool, and talk about how we should shake up a team 6 games into a season.

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