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Swiss statistics NLA/NLB Elite A Jrs.

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Old
10-20-2011, 10:58 AM
  #1
SilverArrow
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Swiss statistics NLA/NLB Elite A Jrs.

Read an very interesting article today in one of swiss boulevard newspapers today regarding swiss statistics regarding swiss NLA league:

http://www.blick.ch/sport/eishockey/...k-blatt-184837

In short: the stats which are published online are obviously quite wrong. For example 7 of ZSC's games the stats were wrong.. Swiss Ice Hockey is aware about this, but don't see it neccessary to act.

As a lover of stats (especially NHL) I find this quite disturbing that Swiss Ice Hockey and NLA league does not take this seriously. Noone today offer you a contract if you can't show your stats. These athlets work their ***** off, and then they leave stats for amateurs.

But the situation for the Swiss juniors is even worse: the players/scorers have stats online but the GOALTENDERS don't! And juniors are in their draft ages (for CHL and NHL), so who dares to draft them without any records!!?? As someone wrote in newspaper comments, all other hockey nations (USA, CAN, SWE, FIN etc) publish their junior stats already from age of 16, in CH not. Who is actually responsible in this country for that? None I suppose.

In september I bought the yearly TOP HOCKEY MAGAZINE with "all players" and stats from last year and what do I read: each of 12 Elite A teams have their scorers and players listed, but the goaltenders were left out!!!! What it this? Some kind of Mickey Mouse land of stats or what!

Hopefully there will be some sort of reaction (and action) by so called responsible persons.

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10-21-2011, 03:03 AM
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It's true that it's annoying when a fan page like hockeyfans.ch has better stats than the league official website.

On the other hand, I hope you're joking when you write that stats are a key part when offering a contract or drafting a player. Professional teams have scouts for a reason, and that reason is to evaluate players beyond numbers. Hockey is not baseball where you can pretty much count everything, what's happening on the ice is a combination of 12 players' actions, and one player's true impact on a game can only be asserted by watching, not by counting on some league official to add or substract a few secondary assists after every game (by the way, assist count in the NHL is a joke, sometimes you wonder if they go out of their way to make sure three points are given on every goal). Stats can confirm observations, but should never be used as a base.

Beside, some stats are meaningless and seeing people arguing over then just makes me want to bang my head against a wall. plus/minus? What is this suppose to mean? Goalie wins and GAA? Those are team stats. Game winning goals? This one is as random as it gets.


Last edited by stv11: 10-21-2011 at 07:40 AM. Reason: typo
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10-21-2011, 04:50 AM
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Switzerland is a horrible country when it comes to proper statistics in sports. Not only in hockey. I have no idea why.


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10-21-2011, 07:49 AM
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poor education

Quote:
Originally Posted by holyprime View Post
Switzerland is a horrible country when it comes to proper statistics in sports. Not only in hockey. I have no idea why.

@ holy prime: you were asking why switzerland is poor in stats. I tell you why:

- partly beacuse of the poor education system (it is not actually hockey related issue, but explains why). 19 % of the swiss makes high school, which is really low compared to the rest of the world. USA/ CAN it is 86% and the EU (European Union)it is 80%...As you know, Switerland is not part of the EU.

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10-21-2011, 08:11 AM
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You cannot compare that, Swiss high school just has a higher level, most of the kids doing an "abitur" in germany wouldn't be able to do a "matura" in Switzerland.

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10-21-2011, 08:38 AM
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contract negotiations and scouting

no, I wasn't joking at all about the contract negotiations. I have experienced quite many of those, so in fact is, if you can't show ANY figures, you'll be in a very tricky position. But now I'm talking about juniors. If you don't have a good agent of course and most of them does not have such. Pros is a different issue.

You are quite right in sayingthat the professional teams have their scouts for a reason, but tell me how many of them you have seen in a JUNIOR GAME here in Switzerland? I have been following both pro and junior games the last 20 years and until today I haven't seen not a single scout in junior games ( it is easy to spot them in croud of 50 spectators, mostly parents). They assume that if a player is good enough, they must be in their NLA team, which is only partly true. I read an interview last night about Yannik Weber (Montreal) and he told that he trained with his NLA team since he was 17 but never got an opportunity to play, so he left for CHL. Good choise for him.
And those players which does not match in the juniors national team have a real big problem to be seen. Good forwards have better chances to get a spot in their pro teams, but tell me one goalkeeper in age of 18 who is playing in NLA, not as a "money saving back up" for the club (except Conz)?

I read last night also that Red Wings did sign a 19-years old goalkeeper and have a look what they (and all others do as well) write in the second sentence:

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=596588

yes, "Mrazek has registered a 2.84 G.A.A. and a 0.916 SV% ". So if this would not be so relevant, so why write about it?

Swiss Ice Hockey does publish only the stats for players, both Juniors and Novizen, but bot for goalies. Is this professional? I personally find it discrimination. Just imagine if private enterprises would hand out CV's for only for selected personnel...







Quote:
Originally Posted by stv11 View Post
It's true that it's annoying when a fan page like hockeyfans.ch has better stats than the league official website.

On the other hand, I hope you're joking when you write that stats are a key part when offering a contract or drafting a player. Professional teams have scouts for a reason, and that reason is to evaluate players beyond numbers. Hockey is not baseball where you can pretty much count everything, what's happening on the ice is a combination of 12 players' actions, and one player's true impact on a game can only be asserted by watching, not by counting on some league official to add or substract a few secondary assists after every game (by the way, assist count in the NHL is a joke, sometimes you wonder if they go out of their way to make sure three points are given on every goal). Stats can confirm observations, but should never be used as a base.

Beside, some stats are meaningless and seeing people arguing over then just makes me want to bang my head against a wall. plus/minus? What is this suppose to mean? Goalie wins and GAA? Those are team stats. Game winning goals? This one is as random as it gets.

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10-21-2011, 08:47 AM
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"lehre"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonas2244 View Post
You cannot compare that, Swiss high school just has a higher level, most of the kids doing an "abitur" in germany wouldn't be able to do a "matura" in Switzerland.
I don't know the school system in germany as well as the swiss, but what I was trying to tell was NOT to compare the high school systems, rather than telling that 80% of the swiss ends up in practical professions in age of 15-16 rather than academical and can be a reason why they don't see the importance of the statistics. It was not to mean to be a comparision. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

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10-21-2011, 08:56 AM
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Ah, ok.

The best thing is that our system allows to first do a "lehre" and afterwards starting an academical career, I think that's quite unique and I would say quite sucessful.

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10-21-2011, 09:18 AM
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stv11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverArrow View Post
I don't know the school system in germany as well as the swiss, but what I was trying to tell was NOT to compare the high school systems, rather than telling that 80% of the swiss ends up in practical professions in age of 15-16 rather than academical and can be a reason why they don't see the importance of the statistics. It was not to mean to be a comparision. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
jonas2244 is right when he mentions the different education system we have in Switzerland. I didn't go to high school and still ended up with an engineer degree, which included, guess what, a lot of statistical analysis. But this is another level of statistic which has nothing in common with counting goals, shots against or whatever you find on nhl.com's stats page.

Anyway, this is a bit offtopic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverArrow View Post
no, I wasn't joking at all about the contract negotiations. I have experienced quite many of those, so in fact is, if you can't show ANY figures, you'll be in a very tricky position. But now I'm talking about juniors. If you don't have a good agent of course and most of them does not have such. Pros is a different issue.
Junior aged players wanting to play for a higher level team go through tryouts where their potential new coaches will take the time to evaluate them, they won't be selected through their stat line, or else only offensive players would ever climb up the ranks.

Actually, junior aged players who lead their league in stats often are guys on their last year of eligibility who aren't playing in the next category yet. The best prospects never have an opportunity to lead their league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverArrow View Post
You are quite right in sayingthat the professional teams have their scouts for a reason, but tell me how many of them you have seen in a JUNIOR GAME here in Switzerland? I have been following both pro and junior games the last 20 years and until today I haven't seen not a single scout in junior games ( it is easy to spot them in croud of 50 spectators, mostly parents). They assume that if a player is good enough, they must be in their NLA team, which is only partly true. I read an interview last night about Yannik Weber (Montreal) and he told that he trained with his NLA team since he was 17 but never got an opportunity to play, so he left for CHL. Good choise for him.
And those players which does not match in the juniors national team have a real big problem to be seen. Good forwards have better chances to get a spot in their pro teams, but tell me one goalkeeper in age of 18 who is playing in NLA, not as a "money saving back up" for the club (except Conz)?
NHL teams don't scout Swiss junior games because it's not a good investment to do so. The day there will be interesting prospects coming out of the Swiss junior league, it will be scouted, but for the moment, paying someone full time to attend Elite A games isn't smart business, given the small chance you have to find a future full time NHLer in that league. Stat availability has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverArrow View Post
I read last night also that Red Wings did sign a 19-years old goalkeeper and have a look what they (and all others do as well) write in the second sentence:

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=596588

yes, "Mrazek has registered a 2.84 G.A.A. and a 0.916 SV% ". So if this would not be so relevant, so why write about it?
They mention it in the article because it's an easy way to quickly introduce the player it's talking about. Do you really think the Red Wings found out about this player thanks to this stat line, which by the way is far from impressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverArrow View Post
Swiss Ice Hockey does publish only the stats for players, both Juniors and Novizen, but bot for goalies. Is this professional? I personally find it discrimination. Just imagine if private enterprises would hand out CV's for only for selected personnel...
The only stats available for players are game played, goals, assists and penalty minutes. In other words, the stats available on the official scoresheet. Providing goalie stats would require to have somebody counting shots at every junior game and I don't think clubs would welcome being required to provide the logistic to do so.

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10-21-2011, 01:22 PM
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torero
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Stats in Hockey

I do believe that the absence of stats in Swiss hockey has more to do with little will to add means to count shots and saves than national stat illiteracy.
My understanding is that the league, which is the body that gathers the stats in the other systems has less importance in Switzerland than in other countries. And independent Medias are simply not willing to invest into that.

scholar systems

I am a well traveled (not only on holidays !) person who had to deal in many countries with all type of people and must say that Switzerland is far from being behind the average in laborer skills or simply average IQ. The more I travel and the more i am proud of that. Few countries have so much multiculturality, polyglotisme or openness than ours on an individual level.
I rate the Swiss scholar system above most others in terms of added value for economic output.

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10-23-2011, 02:53 AM
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swisdan
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The official National League website removed a lot of stats since this week. It's just pathetic to have this stats during two months and remove it in the middle of this season.

Look at this:

http://www.nationalleague.ch/NL/spie...hp?season=2012

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10-23-2011, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverArrow View Post
@ holy prime: you were asking why switzerland is poor in stats. I tell you why:

- partly beacuse of the poor education system (it is not actually hockey related issue, but explains why). 19 % of the swiss makes high school, which is really low compared to the rest of the world. USA/ CAN it is 86% and the EU (European Union)it is 80%...As you know, Switerland is not part of the EU.
If u don't know our education system, how can u see it as the reason for the inability of some sport organisation to keep track of relevant stats?

Just bc its different doesnt mean its bad (or exceptionally good).

Part of the reason may be that a lot of sports organisations are pretty small and dont have the finances to track everything. But i dont think that's the point for hockey, the games are televised, so basically u'd just have to feed a database.
Maybe not for Junior games, but usually there's a match statistic about every game, so it just needs to be compiled (and add some more relevant stats ofc, wont be dead accurate tough).

I think most of the people in charge just dont care, thats why i posted that



Edit: Replied too fast and didnt read your other posting: Even when you go the practical way here, you might end up with an univercity degree (as others have posted). The practical way includes a lot more academic professions than in any other country i know (i for instance did application engineer in the practical way, and now im "finishing" it with studying at an univercity).


Last edited by holyprime: 10-23-2011 at 10:10 AM. Reason: Replied too fast
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10-24-2011, 03:19 AM
  #13
stv11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swisdan View Post
The official National League website removed a lot of stats since this week. It's just pathetic to have this stats during two months and remove it in the middle of this season.

Look at this:

http://www.nationalleague.ch/NL/spie...hp?season=2012
It seems the league is blaming the teams for the poor quality of stats. Obvisouly they can't do anything if the source is rotten, but it should be their job to set up guidelines.

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10-24-2011, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stv11 View Post
It seems the league is blaming the teams for the poor quality of stats. Obvisouly they can't do anything if the source is rotten, but it should be their job to set up guidelines.
The league has to take that in hands only to make sure about consistency across points of collection.

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