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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract?

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Old
10-23-2011, 07:32 PM
  #76
decadentia
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Goaltending is not the reason the caps don't have a cup.
Are you trying to imply defense wins championships?


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10-23-2011, 07:33 PM
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Are you trying to imply defense wins championships?

[IMG]http://www.****************/file_thumbview_approve/228543/2/istockphoto_228543-highly-doubtful.jpg[/IMG]
Image fail.

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10-23-2011, 07:37 PM
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Image fail.


I still love you.

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10-23-2011, 07:44 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
The Red Wings, Flyers and Capitals all had similar instability in net with similar cap situations.

There was absolutely no concrete reality that made Vokoun a sure thing to sign a cheap contract. If you operate like that, you run the risk of ending up with nothing. That was simply not an option.


Although considering your last sentence, this discussion is over...clearly you are the one ignorant of reality by proclaiming this contract an "epic failure" two weeks into season one...... of nine. If we win just one Cup in that time with Bryz in net, the contract will be a success. If you have such a preconception regarding the contract already (as you clearly do), it's obvious that you can not have this discussion with an open mind or with even a shred of objectivity.
They aren't similar situations at all because you're ignoring the team's philosophies. Detroit does not believe in spending big money on goalies. They were never going to sign him or Vokoun to a large deal. Washington is fine with their goalies. It's their defense and coaching that comes under fire.

Anyone who understands the concept of supply and demand knew the Flyers could have signed Vokoun for cheap. Many of us here predicted it. We didn't pull it out of thin air. There simply wasn't any demand on the market for goaltending. You can create as many fantasy situations as you want. It doesn't mean they were going to happen in reality.

It's not as simple as saying the contract will be a success it if we just win one Cup. What if the Flyers win the Cup this season, but then Bryzgalov goes on to be the next DiPietro over the next 8 seasons? Are you telling me no one will complain about the contract over the remaining 8 seasons just because we won one Cup? What if we win a cup within the first 3 or 4 seasons and then Bryz declines and is a below average goalie for the remaining 5? What if we can't afford to keep a Giroux, Schenn, or Couturier in the future? Would people be happy with an aging goalie we're stuck with just because we won a Cup? I don't think so. The fact is Bryzgalov is unlikely to ever live up to a 9 year deal because we signed him through his decline years.

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10-23-2011, 08:01 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
They aren't similar situations at all because you're ignoring the team's philosophies. Detroit does not believe in spending big money on goalies. They were never going to sign him or Vokoun to a large deal. Washington is fine with their goalies. It's their defense and coaching that comes under fire.

Anyone who understands the concept of supply and demand knew the Flyers could have signed Vokoun for cheap. Many of us here predicted it. We didn't pull it out of thin air. There simply wasn't any demand on the market for goaltending. You can create as many fantasy situations as you want. It doesn't mean they were going to happen in reality.
And the Flyers philosophy is that spending big on goaltending is the way to go? Give me a break. Until Bryz, any fan of the Red Wings or Caps or any other team in the league would have been saying the same thing about us.

There is absolutely no reason that another team couldnt have swooped in and signed Bryzgalov or Vokoun. All it takes is one GM to have interest and your whole "supply and demand" argument folds over like a cheap tent.

One GM could have shown interest in upgrading their goaltending situation and the Flyers would have no longer had a bargain on Vokoun...

They played it safe and allowed no room to not sign their guy.

Quote:
It's not as simple as saying the contract will be a success it if we just win one Cup. What if the Flyers win the Cup this season, but then Bryzgalov goes on to be the next DiPietro over the next 8 seasons? Are you telling me no one will complain about the contract over the remaining 8 seasons just because we won one Cup? What if we win a cup within the first 3 or 4 seasons and then Bryz declines and is a below average goalie for the remaining 5? What if we can't afford to keep a Giroux, Schenn, or Couturier in the future? Would people be happy with an aging goalie we're stuck with just because we won a Cup? I don't think so. The fact is Bryzgalov is unlikely to ever live up to a 9 year deal because we signed him through his decline years.
"Bad contract" is the most overused term in hockey. Getting rid of one is not as difficult as people make it out to be, but even then, the chance that this contract actually hinders our ability to re-sign Giroux, Schenn or Couturier in the future is minuscule and completely ignores the possibility that Bryzgalov could very well still be playing like a 5.6m goalie in 3-4 years.

And considering Bryzgalov is two weeks into his deal, there is no reason to label it a "bad contract", let alone an "epic failure" yet. Maybe it will become one, but it is not one yet.

The fact that you are deeming it as such this early just shows your narrow mindedness. Like I said, your preconceptions make this a discussion that is clearly not worth having. You are not looking at this contract with an open mind. You have your own misguided notion of what could/should have happened and that is clouding your judgment.

I'm not proclaiming this contract to be a good one or that it will be a success. I'm just saying that the logic behind the deal is certainly justifiable and has very good chance for success (with equal chance for failure as Bryzgalov ages).

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10-23-2011, 08:09 PM
  #81
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Actually, getting rid of this contract would be pretty difficult. With the way its structured, he has no incentive to go to Russia, teams looking for a high cap hit with low pay wouldn't have interes and he VCRs full c control with a no move clause.

There are far more ways for this contract to go wrong then there are for it to go right. Any islander our Canuck fan can testify to that.

Edit: has, not VCR. stupid swype.

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10-23-2011, 08:19 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Like I said, your preconceptions make this a discussion that is clearly not worth having. You are not looking at this contract with an open mind.

So why donīt we speak about what iīve mentioned before. Can Bryz stand the pressure?

Your thoughts...

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10-23-2011, 08:24 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
They aren't similar situations at all because you're ignoring the team's philosophies. Detroit does not believe in spending big money on goalies. They were never going to sign him or Vokoun to a large deal. Washington is fine with their goalies. It's their defense and coaching that comes under fire.

Anyone who understands the concept of supply and demand knew the Flyers could have signed Vokoun for cheap. Many of us here predicted it. We didn't pull it out of thin air. There simply wasn't any demand on the market for goaltending. You can create as many fantasy situations as you want. It doesn't mean they were going to happen in reality.

It's not as simple as saying the contract will be a success it if we just win one Cup. What if the Flyers win the Cup this season, but then Bryzgalov goes on to be the next DiPietro over the next 8 seasons? Are you telling me no one will complain about the contract over the remaining 8 seasons just because we won one Cup? What if we win a cup within the first 3 or 4 seasons and then Bryz declines and is a below average goalie for the remaining 5? What if we can't afford to keep a Giroux, Schenn, or Couturier in the future? Would people be happy with an aging goalie we're stuck with just because we won a Cup? I don't think so. The fact is Bryzgalov is unlikely to ever live up to a 9 year deal because we signed him through his decline years.
Just like the flyers right? A Gm is going to go after a player if he thinks that he can improve his team, and give them a chance to be a winner. Who knows if the Detroit was in on Bryz, but it is entirely possible.

It is highly unlikely that Bryzgalov's contract would keep us from resigning one of our core guys as well. Historically, the flyers have been very good at holding onto their franchise talent. They'll make moves to find a way to keep a player if they think that he'll be worth it. And don't bring up Gagne, I know he was moved for salary cap issues but Gagne wasn't a franchise at that point and he was considered injury prone. At that point, Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Pronger, and Timonen were all more important to the team's success.

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10-23-2011, 08:27 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ironmanrulez View Post
So why donīt we speak about what iīve mentioned before. Can Bryz stand the pressure?

Your thoughts...
Yes, I think that he can. He's a cup winner. The fact that he was bad against Detroit in the playoffs is more of a testament to how average Phoenix was, and how Bryz was pretty much the only reason they were there.

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10-23-2011, 09:17 PM
  #85
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Yes, I think that he can. He's a cup winner. The fact that he was bad against Detroit in the playoffs is more of a testament to how average Phoenix was, and how Bryz was pretty much the only reason they were there.
No, bryz was the backup to a cup winner

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10-24-2011, 12:46 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No, bryz was the backup to a cup winner
While this is true, he did basically win (3 of 4) of the first round in the 2007 cup run.

He won 2 series the year before. In 2010 the PHX/DET series was very competitive...and rumors abounded that the 2011 PHX/DET series was rife with uncertainty about if PHX was becoming the new Winnepeg. It really had a big effect on the locker room.

I have no idea why anyone thats not named Ed Snider cares about this contract. If the Flyers want to move him at some point, they will find a way to do it (yes i know he has a NMC), i have no doubts. Snider has show NO issues with burying expensive salary in the past, i doubt its going to change.

As far as his play goes...I can see why hes a good goalie. He's very consistent,big in net, and doesn't overplay. Maybe 1 of the goals in the last 2 games were on him....bad defense, and bad luck. How many times against STL did people fall down or pucks bounce...I think the ice was VERY bad Saturday. I'm sure he will be fine when our defense decides to actually start playing.

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10-24-2011, 09:11 AM
  #87
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You have no idea why fans of a sport with a hard salary cap care about contracts?

Really?

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10-24-2011, 09:47 AM
  #88
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There's a difference between "won a couple series" and "cup winner." You fail to account for the fact that his nmc makes burying it impossible unless bryz wants to be buried. If it somehow does get traded away the resulting trade would make the gagne dump look like a good deal.

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10-24-2011, 10:00 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
While this is true, he did basically win (3 of 4) of the first round in the 2007 cup run.

He won 2 series the year before. In 2010 the PHX/DET series was very competitive...and rumors abounded that the 2011 PHX/DET series was rife with uncertainty about if PHX was becoming the new Winnepeg. It really had a big effect on the locker room.

I have no idea why anyone thats not named Ed Snider cares about this contract. If the Flyers want to move him at some point, they will find a way to do it (yes i know he has a NMC), i have no doubts. Snider has show NO issues with burying expensive salary in the past, i doubt its going to change.

As far as his play goes...I can see why hes a good goalie. He's very consistent,big in net, and doesn't overplay. Maybe 1 of the goals in the last 2 games were on him....bad defense, and bad luck. How many times against STL did people fall down or pucks bounce...I think the ice was VERY bad Saturday. I'm sure he will be fine when our defense decides to actually start playing.
Thank you. Bryzgalov is playing just fine. They lost a couple games. The sky is falling. He hasn't played badly at all, in fact he's been brilliant at times.

His contract is not a problem. Very friendly cap hit for a top keeper, which he is.

If he retires after this season, so what? Ed can afford it, and it would free up cap space to sign someone else....

My guess is he has 6 great years in Philly, collects most of the money on the deal, and retires to Russia a happy, rich man....

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10-24-2011, 10:03 AM
  #90
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Thank you. Bryzgalov is playing just fine. They lost a couple games. The sky is falling. He hasn't played badly at all, in fact he's been brilliant at times.

His contract is not a problem. Very friendly cap hit for a top keeper, which he is.

If he retires after this season, so what? Ed can afford it, and it would free up cap space to sign someone else....

My guess is he has 6 great years in Philly, collects most of the money on the deal, and retires to Russia a happy, rich man....
I doubt he leaves 9 million dollars behind.

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10-24-2011, 10:05 AM
  #91
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Thank you. Bryzgalov is playing just fine. They lost a couple games. The sky is falling. He hasn't played badly at all, in fact he's been brilliant at times.

His contract is not a problem. Very friendly cap hit for a top keeper, which he is.

His contract is atrocious if you don't have a myopic perspective.
If he retires after this season, so what? Ed can afford it, and it would free up cap space to sign someone else....

My guess is he has 6 great years in Philly, collects most of the money on the deal, and retires to Russia a happy, rich man....
If he retires, the Flyers don't pay him... And I have no idea why you would assume he will retire out of this deal.

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10-24-2011, 10:17 AM
  #92
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I don't think Bryzgalov will retire before the end of the contract, but if the Flyers need to lose his cap number, Paul Holmgren clearly is willing to, and doesn't really care what he has to do to do it. We know what road that takes us down though.

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10-24-2011, 10:37 AM
  #93
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Bryz has looked good to me.

Flyboys would have been down like 5-0 to the Blues after the first without him.

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10-24-2011, 11:36 AM
  #94
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If he retires, the Flyers don't pay him... And I have no idea why you would assume he will retire out of this deal.
Yeah, it seems that players rarely retire willingly. It usually comes from injury or when no team will offer them a contract...definitely not in the middle of a contract with loads of money left to be had.

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10-24-2011, 11:41 AM
  #95
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This thread is a complete joke...7 games into the season and we're calling for Bryz's head and SPECULATING that his contract is not worth it. Cut me a break. Also I don't know about anybody else but I've been following this team for a quarter of a century with no freaking cup in that time and yeah I think it will be worth it if in 1 of his 9 he brings home a cup.

Yeah his last two games left much to be desired and obviously he can do much better and we got him to basically win some games on his own which maybe he's done once in 7 games but lets keep things in perspective. The TEAM has to work through a whole new scheme and a coach that isn't the most nurturing when it comes to that. He bags skates them which makes everybody feel good from a revenge factor (including me) but then you realize sometimes it goes too far like against the Blues where we look like we travelled from Siberia to Philly. Anyway, we got plenty of time before we panic and even then not sure it will be warranted. It's a transition year...deal with it. It will stink if we don't make the playoffs even though I think we should make it at least as a 7 seed at worst but there is lots of parity in the league and it's going to be a struggle every game and it makes it more of a struggle when you are trying to get team chemistry on the ice with all the new faces.

Having said this..yeah we need to see more from our best players but lets at least give them until game 15 or even game 41 before we really assess everybody.

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10-24-2011, 11:45 AM
  #96
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This thread is a complete joke...7 games into the season and we're calling for Bryz's head and SPECULATING that his contract is not worth it. Cut me a break. Also I don't know about anybody else but I've been following this team for a quarter of a century with no freaking cup in that time and yeah I think it will be worth it if in 1 of his 9 he brings home a cup.

Yeah his last two games left much to be desired and obviously he can do much better and we got him to basically win some games on his own which maybe he's done once in 7 games but lets keep things in perspective. The TEAM has to work through a whole new scheme and a coach that isn't the most nurturing when it comes to that. He bags skates them which makes everybody feel good from a revenge factor (including me) but then you realize sometimes it goes too far like agains the Blues where we look like we travelled from Siberia to Philly. Anyway, we got plenty of time before we panic and even then not sure it will be warranted. It's a transition year...deal with it. It will stink if we don't make the playoffs even though I think we should make it at least as a 7 seed at worst but there is lots of parity in the league and it's going to be a struggle every game and it makes it more of a struggle when you are trying to get team chemistry on the ice with all the new faces.

Having said this..yeah we need to see more from our best players but lets at least give them until game 15 or even game 41 before we really assess everybody.
Your commentary would be of much more value if it didn't begin with, at the best, a half-truth (at worst, an outright skewing of facts given that you didn't just show up on this site). That contract was terrible the moment the ink dried from the printer, and that has absolutely nothing to do with 7 games. So, spare me the "it's only been 7 games" drama queen BS.

Blackhawks won a Cup with a couple of absolutely atrocious contracts... you say 1 in 9 is worth it? What if that 1 in 9 cost you a shot at a couple more? Still worth it?

Bryz's contract has been pretty much universally panned as idiotic by objective commentators since the moment it was signed by pretty much everyone that pays attention to things like statistics, the goalie contract market, etc. There's a reason for that.

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10-24-2011, 11:49 AM
  #97
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I'm not calling for his head. He remains a good goalie; but, I'd like to see him start playing like a great goalie. Even then It's pretty doubtful he will be good enough for long enough to justify what is more likely than not going to turn out to be an unjustifiable contract. For one thing, he better start being like Lundqvist carrying the Rangers through their struggles, or Vokoun essentially being Florida's team for years. For his contract and skill level, he needs to be able to stand on his own and bail the team out when they struggle...that's the point of getting him, right?

Regardless, that contract is 4 years too long. That's not his fault though, that lies with the organization. Signing him for the rest of his prime is one thing...signing him through his decline years was a bad idea.

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10-24-2011, 12:13 PM
  #98
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All of that without getting into the cost-benefit analysis of it all given the presence of Bob and other options on the market.

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10-24-2011, 12:26 PM
  #99
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Blackhawks won a Cup with a couple of absolutely atrocious contracts... you say 1 in 9 is worth it? What if that 1 in 9 cost you a shot at a couple more? Still worth it?
I'd rather have one Cup tied up and in the history books than only a shot at more. Just having a shot, even if you are the odds on favorite clearly the best team in the league means jack boo come May and June. If the Flyers win a Cup this year (or next, or whenever) and Bryz's contract prevents them from POSSIBLY winning five more, I'd still be ecstatic to have the one instead of a shot a five. Hell I'd rather have a Cup and finish dead last for the remainder of Bryz's contract than only having a shot the Cup for the duration of the contract.

Maybe that's just me but I've never seen the Flyers hoist the Cup and I've been waiting 25 years to see it happen so IMO, yes having one Cup is worth more than having a shot at a couple more.

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10-24-2011, 12:34 PM
  #100
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I'd rather have one Cup tied up and in the history books than only a shot at more. Just having a shot, even if you are the odds on favorite clearly the best team in the league means jack boo come May and June. If the Flyers win a Cup this year (or next, or whenever) and Bryz's contract prevents them from POSSIBLY winning five more, I'd still be ecstatic to have the one instead of a shot a five. Hell I'd rather have a Cup and finish dead last for the remainder of Bryz's contract than only having a shot the Cup for the duration of the contract.

Maybe that's just me but I've never seen the Flyers hoist the Cup and I've been waiting 25 years to see it happen so IMO, yes having one Cup is worth more than having a shot at a couple more.
There are so many critical reasoning gaps in the logic here.

For starters, the assumption is that the another possibility may have resulted in multiple shots at the Cup, thus likely improving your chance at winning the Stanley Cup. If the Flyers had beaten the Blackhawks -- and I think they would have with a real goalie -- then Tallon would not simply have ruined what was a dynasty in the making, but the drought would still be in effect in Chicago. This is without getting into the random chance of the playoffs prior to that series.

Loading up and having the best team possible in a short window does not assure you of success. Look at the Phillies. The WEAKEST of the Phils teams in recent memory was the one that won the WS.

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