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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract?

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Old
10-24-2011, 01:55 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
For starters, the assumption is that the another possibility may have resulted in multiple shots at the Cup, thus likely improving your chance at winning the Stanley Cup. If the Flyers had beaten the Blackhawks -- and I think they would have with a real goalie -- then Tallon would not simply have ruined what was a dynasty in the making, but the drought would still be in effect in Chicago. This is without getting into the random chance of the playoffs prior to that series.
That maybe true if the Blackhawks lost, but the Blackhawks won so it doesn't matter what COULD have happened, because it didn't. So if I'm a Blackhawks fan, I'd be ecstatic. If things went differently with Chicago, they may have been set up for a shot to start a dynasty and had a better chance at winning multiple Cups. But just having a shot, even if it is a very good shot, doesn't mean they would have won two or three in a row, hell if things went differently they may not have even won the Cup that year.

You don't have to feel this way, and I'm sure you're not alone, but if the Flyers won a Cup this year and came in last for the rest of Bryz's contract, I would be more than happy. If they suck for the next nine years, yeah, I'll be pissed. If they compete at a high level (i.e. deep playoff runs) for the next 9 years I'd be happy, though not as happy as if they won a Cup.

If the Flyers put together a great team and don't win for the duration of Bryz's contract, you will likely be very mad even if they make it to the Cup and conference finals and such throughout Bryz's tenure and condemn Homer for doing a poor job because of Bryz's contract, despite the fact that they have been competing at a high level which is exactly what you say you want. You also be mad if they win a Cup this year and finish last for the next 9 years. It appears, and I could be wrong, that you will only be satisfied by multiple Cups, which is pretty rare in this day and age.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, because obviously I don't know what's going on inside your head. But it seems you are not happy with Homer now, despite the successful, albeit non-Cup winning, team he has put on the ice. You also seem to say that one Cup at the expense of a SHOT at multiple cups is not acceptable. So what it appears to me that you are saying is that you want 1) a shot at multiple Cups more than just one Cup or 2) multiple Cups. Is this correct? Please correct me if it is not, and I'm not trying to be a dick I am just letting you know what it appears to me like you are saying so you can get where I am coming from. If that is not what you are saying, please elaborate on it a little more so we don't have to argue about stuff that is not at issue.

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10-24-2011, 01:57 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That maybe true if the Blackhawks lost, but the Blackhawks won so it doesn't matter what COULD have happened, because it didn't.
...that doesn't mean the original decision wasn't *ing idiotically stupid. The Huet and Campbell contracts were indefensibly dumb, no matter what happened after the fact. They were stupid contracts. Bryz's contract is stupid. Lilja's contract is stupid.

If you want to talk about decision making, you need to assess the decision making, not unpredictable results... because unpredictable results are not repeatable, smart decisions are. If you want to place all your cards on evaluating management based on the unpredictable end result of winning a Cup, by all means go for it... but even blind squirrels find nuts. Doesn't mean it pays to be blind.

Phillies didn't win a WS, but acquiring and signing Halladay and Cliff Lee were pretty savvy moves. Trading Lee in the first place... not so smart -- though, perhaps, defensible.

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10-24-2011, 02:05 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...that doesn't mean the original decision wasn't *ing idiotically stupid. The Huet and Campbell contracts were indefensibly dumb, no matter what happened after the fact. They were stupid contracts. Bryz's contract is stupid. Lilja's contract is stupid.

If you want to talk about decision making, you need to assess the decision making, not unpredictable results... because unpredictable results are not repeatable, smart decisions are. If you want to place all your cards on evaluating management based on the unpredictable end result of winning a Cup, by all means go for it... but even blind squirrels find nuts. Doesn't mean it pays to be blind.

Phillies didn't win a WS, but acquiring and signing Halladay and Cliff Lee were pretty savvy moves. Trading Lee in the first place... not so smart -- though, perhaps, defensible.
I guess my point is that even if they are bad decisions, which they clearly were, the Blackhawks still won and if I'm a Blackhawks fan that's all that matters. Ever heard the old saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? Even if Dale Tallon was the worst GM in history and he secretly let one of his kids just pick his favorite players and put the team together that way, if they won the Cup, I could care less if I'm Blackhawks fan.

The reason I wouldn't care is because there is one goal in hockey: winning the Stanley Cup. Not competing for the Stanley Cup. Not being the favorites to win. Not being picked to win and having the best chance to win. Not having the best contracts. Not pleasing all the fans. The goal is to win the Cup. I'd love to win the Cup and be perennial favorites. Who wouldn't? But in this era, that doesn't often happen. And even if it did, I'd still be happy with a Cup and then being a cellar dweller instead of having the best shot to win it every year (see "bird in hand" reference above).

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10-24-2011, 02:23 PM
  #104
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Drama queen...

Quote:
"We're seven games in," captain Chris Pronger said yesterday, laughing. "I don't think anyone is pushing the panic button. We knew it was going to be a work in progress with this team. We weren't going to go 82-0."

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz1bj0G2Afh

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10-24-2011, 02:26 PM
  #105
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Laughing about it!? Proof he doesn't care! Strip the C!



Sadly, I do expect people to begin blaming Captain Pronger if the slump continues. That's gonna be stupid.

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10-24-2011, 03:12 PM
  #106
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No. Pretty clear the Flyers overpaid because Ed Snider ran out of patience; I still think the Flyers would've been perfectly fine with Bobrovsky entering the season as the starter.

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10-24-2011, 03:44 PM
  #107
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EVER seems like such a final word considering its been less than 10 games.

And, what would be worth it to you?

Should he NEVER have a bad game? Should he be the only part of the team held accountable for bad defense and terrible passing? Should he, unlike all the other new members of this team, be on the same page as a team who isn't on the same page as each other?

I hate the goalie crap, pardon my language. But, seriously, bad defensive breakdowns and him having a less than average game last game is what we are talking about...don't even throw the other loss against him. How many deflections from our own players should he be stopping? Should he be playing them instead of the other team?

Carle has been crap, Mez has had a few surprising bad errors and our passing is awful. Our new-look team looks just that, new. No exception to the rule for goalies, we all look like we anticipated we would the first few games, just took a few to set in.

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10-24-2011, 03:46 PM
  #108
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Perfection?

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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
Drama queen...

"We're seven games in," captain Chris Pronger said yesterday, laughing. "I don't think anyone is pushing the panic button. We knew it was going to be a work in progress with this team. We weren't going to go 82-0."



But maybe the Capitals will be. We should have picked up Vokoun.

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10-24-2011, 03:48 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
"We're seven games in," captain Chris Pronger said yesterday, laughing. "I don't think anyone is pushing the panic button. We knew it was going to be a work in progress with this team. We weren't going to go 82-0."



But maybe the Capitals will be. We should have picked up Vokoun.
...

Vokoun will fall down to earth soon enough - just as the Capitals will and always do. Vokoun is a poor man's Nabakov and that isn't saying much.

Flyers fans need to hold the TEAM, yes they are a team, not a goalie + others, accountable. We look bad. We are new together and thus look bad. Bryz had a bad game. Enough whining.

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10-24-2011, 03:57 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
"We're seven games in," captain Chris Pronger said yesterday, laughing. "I don't think anyone is pushing the panic button. We knew it was going to be a work in progress with this team. We weren't going to go 82-0."



But maybe the Capitals will be. We should have picked up Vokoun.
I can't even help it - I am so mad that this thread already exists:

Oct 10 '11 TBL @ WSH W 5 28 23 .821 0 0 64:57 5

Oh that's just Vokoun's stats from the TBL game, 5 goals on 28 shots. I remember watching that game and saying how glad I was we didn't get him.


I was beyond stoked when we got Bryz, he was my favorite goalie - and I am still stoked. If he proves me wrong, and looks bad, like Robert Esche bad (because thats the kind of bad that deserves a thread like this after 7 games) mid-way through the season - I will start a thread named, "Bryz doubters, I admit you were right"

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10-24-2011, 03:59 PM
  #111
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The goalie thing . . .

It all started when this organization threw Niittymaki under the bus. It's like the Eagles David Akers TUTB incident. The best recent years were the Esche/Niity combo (back when we had Primeau, Kappanen, Brashear, Roenick etc.).

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10-24-2011, 04:08 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
It all started when this organization threw Niittymaki under the bus. It's like the Eagles David Akers TUTB incident. The best recent years were the Esche/Niity combo (back when we had Primeau, Kappanen, Brashear, Roenick etc.).
Both Esche and Nitty were spazzes...once Esche had his injury his athletic style went out the door and yet he threw hissy fits in the media during the Olympics b/c he was a 4th string goalie. I think Lavy was the coach too...

Nitty can't sustain a full season. At least Bryz has shown he can play 60+ games and do well.

Bob looks more sound and not as spazzy but he seems a bit mental and needs to tone down a bit. I mean nobody wants apathy but being overcompetitive leads to mental breakdowns like he had last year.

Vokoun I just don't trust at this point. He'll do fine for them and fits in better there b/c of their high octane offense which they can have more confidence in executing now that they have him in net but we'll see if he holds up. Dude had a bad back by season's end last year....we shall see.

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10-24-2011, 04:11 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
It all started when this organization threw Niittymaki under the bus. It's like the Eagles David Akers TUTB incident. The best recent years were the Esche/Niity combo (back when we had Primeau, Kappanen, Brashear, Roenick etc.).
Nitty was great - I really liked him. Problem was, we had the worst defense in the NHL and Esche could not be trusted so Nitty and his two bad hips had to play. For some reason he was the scapegoat for the last place season.

Esche looked a lot like Leighton in the Buffalo playoff series so I can't say I ever really liked him.

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10-24-2011, 04:16 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Nitty was great - I really liked him. Problem was, we had the worst defense in the NHL and Esche could not be trusted so Nitty and his two bad hips had to play. For some reason he was the scapegoat for the last place season.

Esche looked a lot like Leighton in the Buffalo playoff series so I can't say I ever really liked him.
He had one strong playoff where he looked really really good...then Clarke tore up his exisiting contract and gave him more money and then he started going down hill but mostly when he got injured with the hip.

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10-24-2011, 04:54 PM
  #115
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I like how everyone complains about the Flyers not getting a legitimate starting goalie and when they finally do they complain more about his contract. You can't have both!!

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10-24-2011, 04:57 PM
  #116
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I like how everyone complains about the Flyers not getting a legitimate starting goalie and when they finally do they complain more about his contract. You can't have both!!
Actually, you can.

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10-24-2011, 05:23 PM
  #117
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I like how everyone complains about the Flyers not getting a legitimate starting goalie and when they finally do they complain more about his contract. You can't have both!!
Not only are they complaining about his contract, they are complaining about his play.

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10-24-2011, 06:09 PM
  #118
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He could probably lead us to 4 Cups in his 9 year contract, and people would still find something to ***** about.

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10-24-2011, 06:12 PM
  #119
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He could probably lead us to 4 Cups in his 9 year contract, and people would still find something to ***** about.
I wouldn't. If he earns us 4 Cups then it's pretty clear that Holmgren is a genius and that contract was worth it. Until then, it's a pretty stupid contract.

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10-24-2011, 06:19 PM
  #120
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I wouldn't. If he earns us 4 Cups then it's pretty clear that Holmgren is a genius and that contract was worth it. Until then, it's a pretty stupid contract.
disregarding the Vokoun contract, how so? Because it's 9 years? Or because of the cap hit. I'm nearly positive it was made to be 9 years to decrease the blow on the cap hit...same as Talbot's, Carter's, etc.

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10-24-2011, 06:26 PM
  #121
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disregarding the Vokoun contract, how so? Because it's 9 years? Or because of the cap hit. I'm nearly positive it was made to be 9 years to decrease the blow on the cap hit...same as Talbot's, Carter's, etc.
9 years is too long and takes him well into his decline, at which point his cap hit will be too high for his production. He has a NMC, so we lack leverage to trade him without getting shafted harder than we got for Gagne; especially if we're trading him because he's not worth his hit for whatever reason. He makes plenty of money throughout so he has little incentive to go to Russia if his play drops off...as play tends to do as an athlete gets old. Overall, the Flyers overpaid far too much and signed him for far too long and have allowed themselves pretty much no way out if things don't go perfectly. By fixing their goaltending situation, the Flyers have perfectly set themselves up for their next goaltending disaster down the road. It's kinda zen.

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10-24-2011, 06:39 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
9 years is too long and takes him well into his decline, at which point his cap hit will be too high for his production. He has a NMC, so we lack leverage to trade him without getting shafted harder than we got for Gagne; especially if we're trading him because he's not worth his hit for whatever reason. He makes plenty of money throughout so he has little incentive to go to Russia if his play drops off...as play tends to do as an athlete gets old. Overall, the Flyers overpaid far too much and signed him for far too long and have allowed themselves pretty much no way out if things don't go perfectly. By fixing their goaltending situation, the Flyers have perfectly set themselves up for their next goaltending disaster down the road. It's kinda zen.
I don't think it's as bad as some make it out to be. We have a goalie, that's the most important thing. We don't know when he'll decline. Assuming he does in his final 2-3 years, we could also assume just as easily that the cap ceiling will be around $70-75 million dollars if it continues to rise, making 5.6 million an uncomfortable cap hit for a backup goalie, but not a terrible one. The thing that DOES make this deal worse is the NMC, I will agree with that. Again, if we signed him to a 3,4, or 5 year contract for what he wanted to be paid, he'd have an abomination of a cap hit. So length of the cap doesn't bother me as much as it does others. And the goal of Holmgren (we hope) is to win those 4 cups before his play drops off.

And if you can only think negatively, just remember how much New York is paying DiPietro. Maybe that will put your mind at ease

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10-24-2011, 06:49 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
"We're seven games in," captain Chris Pronger said yesterday, laughing. "I don't think anyone is pushing the panic button. We knew it was going to be a work in progress with this team. We weren't going to go 82-0."



But maybe the Capitals will be. We should have picked up Vokoun.
So how's your car doing? And how much did you get for that puck?

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10-24-2011, 06:57 PM
  #124
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I don't think it's as bad as some make it out to be. We have a goalie, that's the most important thing. We don't know when he'll decline. Assuming he does in his final 2-3 years, we could also assume just as easily that the cap ceiling will be around $70-75 million dollars if it continues to rise, making 5.6 million an uncomfortable cap hit for a backup goalie, but not a terrible one. The thing that DOES make this deal worse is the NMC, I will agree with that. Again, if we signed him to a 3,4, or 5 year contract for what he wanted to be paid, he'd have an abomination of a cap hit. So length of the cap doesn't bother me as much as it does others. And the goal of Holmgren (we hope) is to win those 4 cups before his play drops off.

And if you can only think negatively, just remember how much New York is paying DiPietro. Maybe that will put your mind at ease
If DiPietro is bought out this summer he will cost the Islanders 1.5 mil a year for 18 years.

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10-24-2011, 10:50 PM
  #125
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I love all the shoulda woulda coulda in this thread. We totally could have had Vokoun because, you know...because.

So Bryz goes elsewhere, Vokoun still signs with the caps, and we are sailing on S creek.

I think Bob is going to be good, very talented goalie, but much like last year he's still a BIG question mark. Watching him tonight vs Tor...I can see just how much better Bryz's rebound control is. Bob's putting them back in traffic, while Bryz kicks them to the corner, or eats them. Has he even given up a rebound goal this year, its been all deflections or screens from my memory.

Until Bryz's contract forces us to lose a player its not a bad contract. I don't consider Richards and Carter to be losses either.

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