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Dump & chase : System? Or lack of talent?

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Old
10-24-2011, 01:29 PM
  #76
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I'm really going to hold back from forming an opinion on our offensive system until we get Sauer and Staal back. Missing two of your top 4 defensemen has a significant impact on your transition game, which seems to be a huge problem so far (that and actually hitting the net).

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10-24-2011, 01:47 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by King Henrik 30 View Post
I'm really going to hold back from forming an opinion on our offensive system until we get Sauer and Staal back. Missing two of your top 4 defensemen has a significant impact on your transition game, which seems to be a huge problem so far (that and actually hitting the net).
Fair enough, but I dont really consider Staal or Sauer puckmoving defensemen.

From what I've seen they'll certainly be able to help with the issue of getting pinned down in the defensive zone and severely outshot, as has been the case.

But I dont know how they'll be able to help the terrible issues on the nuetral and offensive zone the rare times we do have the puck.

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10-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #78
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Are you trying to tell me that being able to adequately disect a hockey game is a pre-requisite when it comes to getting a studio TV gig? Barry Melrose, Matt Barnaby, and Don Cherry say hi! I admittedly have not seen much of Tortorella's work with TSN, but the most memorable moment of his time there was when he ripped Avery a new one. Thats a personality and entertainment contest, even in Canada. Does he give off the impression to you that hes a particularly gifted hockey mind at this level? A tactician? A guy that pays close attention to X's and O's? I just dont see it, and ridiculous press conferences like the one after the Edmonton game only enhance my opinion.

And yup, he was a Stanley Cup winner, with an extremely talented team. Having a message and motivational skills is enough to get by when the talents there.

When its not, well, us Ranger fans are seeing what the end result is...something we're all too familiar with - mediocrity.
I'd be willing to bet that every one of those guys you just mentioned know more about this game than any of us on this board... probably combined. Don Cherry has become a charicature of himself but he knows the game. They ALL have high paying jobs in the industry (after having real careers in the actual sport) and while that doesn't mean all that much, it does mean that they have something to offer... insight beyond what people see on TV or from watching in the stands.

If you think you know more than they do, that's fine... it may be true, I don't know you, but I wouldn't discount them, especially one that has a Stanley Cup on his resume if I were you. Yeah, he had a talented team, but if you think just anyone can coach a team with talent to the Stanley Cup I'm not sure why you watch the game... it must be a very boring experience.

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10-24-2011, 02:18 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
I'd be willing to bet that every one of those guys you just mentioned know more about this game than any of us on this board... probably combined. Don Cherry has become a charicature of himself but he knows the game. They ALL have high paying jobs in the industry (after having real careers in the actual sport) and while that doesn't mean all that much, it does mean that they have something to offer... insight beyond what people see on TV or from watching in the stands.

If you think you know more than they do, that's fine... it may be true, I don't know you, but I wouldn't discount them, especially one that has a Stanley Cup on his resume if I were you. Yeah, he had a talented team, but if you think just anyone can coach a team with talent to the Stanley Cup I'm not sure why you watch the game... it must be a very boring experience.
I dont think I know more than anyone associated with the NHL - if I did, I'd be in the league and not posting here. Im simply comparing Tortorella to his peers and its just my opinion.

When Tom Renney talked about what happened after a game, I felt like I was learning something most of the time - not to mention he did it in a smart, classy way. When Torts talks, its pretty much the complete opposite. Maybe perception isnt reality and hes a real strategy guru behind closed doors, but judging by his demeanor and his public statements, it sure seems to be that raining down fire and brimstone on his team is one of the main weapons in his arsenal.

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10-24-2011, 02:29 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont think I know more than anyone associated with the NHL - if I did, I'd be in the league and not posting here. Im simply comparing Tortorella to his peers and its just my opinion.

When Tom Renney talked about what happened after a game, I felt like I was learning something most of the time - not to mention he did it in a smart, classy way. When Torts talks, its pretty much the complete opposite. Maybe perception isnt reality and hes a real strategy guru behind closed doors, but judging by his demeanor and his public statements, it sure seems to be that raining down fire and brimstone on his team is one of the main weapons in his arsenal.
It sounds (and this isn't a criticism) as if you have an issue with his personality more than anything else. I'm sure there are many who agree. The guy may not be the type of coach that players/fans (certainly writers) like... I recall that being a selling point once Renney was fired actually. The culture of this team needed to be changed and Torts was a large part of that, like it or not. His methods may be questionable and his antics may be riduculous, even embarassing at times but he is what he is. He's taken this team from a bunch of entitled, money hungry princesses and turned them into a blue collar, hard working and hard to play against team.

His job is far from over... especially the putrid PP, but he's going to get a chance to finish what he's started.

As for the Xs and Os... I'm not sure. There are different coaches in every sport and they all have different methods. If you want an Xs and Os guy you're entitled. He may not be it... but I guarantee he has a gameplan and is trying to instill that system into these guys so they know it in their sleep.

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10-24-2011, 02:30 PM
  #81
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Fair enough, but I dont really consider Staal or Sauer puckmoving defensemen.

From what I've seen they'll certainly be able to help with the issue of getting pinned down in the defensive zone and severely outshot, as has been the case.

But I dont know how they'll be able to help the terrible issues on the nuetral and offensive zone the rare times we do have the puck.
While Sauer and Staal aren't really offensive dynamos, you have to admit that they both have viable outlet passes. This makes it much easier to transition from your zone the neutral zone.

Shutdown capabilities also help the transition game. Staal and Sauer are both great at breaking up plays early and not letting the opposition gain the zone. When you break up plays before they develop, it is much easier to move the puck and gain the zone.

When you think about it in great detail, there are tons of ways that players of Staal and Sauer's caliber can help an offense.

I'm not saying that Staal and Sauer will fix our offensive problems, but I can see them making a noticeable impact.

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10-24-2011, 02:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Fair enough, but I dont really consider Staal or Sauer puckmoving defensemen.

From what I've seen they'll certainly be able to help with the issue of getting pinned down in the defensive zone and severely outshot, as has been the case.

But I dont know how they'll be able to help the terrible issues on the nuetral and offensive zone the rare times we do have the puck.
The only way I could see them helping the neutral offensive zone issues is by allowing the forwards to be more comfortable focusing solely on offense, rather than worrying overmuch about getting back. Our forwards are currently too deep in the defensive zone and too high in the offensive zone. I personally feel that has to do with our injuries on D.

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10-24-2011, 02:35 PM
  #83
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Oddly enough I think coaches say too much to the media in this day and age... they're interviewed prior to games, while running off the sideline at the half and then have to sit through a :30 min press conference after the win or loss answering questions.

More often than not I think they curb their answers as to "not give too much away" anyway. It's almost pointless but we as fans feel like it's true insight into the game and their strategy. Only an insane coach would run off the sideline saying "We're going to do a lot more play action in the second half". It's ridiculous.

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10-24-2011, 02:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
It sounds (and this isn't a criticism) as if you have an issue with his personality more than anything else. I'm sure there are many who agree. The guy may not be the type of coach that players/fans (certainly writers) like... I recall that being a selling point once Renney was fired actually. The culture of this team needed to be changed and Torts was a large part of that, like it or not. His methods may be questionable and his antics may be riduculous, even embarassing at times but he is what he is. He's taken this team from a bunch of entitled, money hungry princesses and turned them into a blue collar, hard working and hard to play against team.
His job is far from over... especially the putrid PP, but he's going to get a chance to finish what he's started.

As for the Xs and Os... I'm not sure. There are different coaches in every sport and they all have different methods. If you want an Xs and Os guy you're entitled. He may not be it... but I guarantee he has a gameplan and is trying to instill that system into these guys so they know it in their sleep.
I agree with everything you said except the bolded part. Aside from the 2008-2009 team, which was probably the most pathetic roster I'd seen assembled as a fan of 20+ years, I thought Renney fielded teams that were pretty hard working and tough to play against...more successful too.

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10-24-2011, 02:52 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I agree with everything you said except the bolded part. Aside from the 2008-2009 team, which was probably the most pathetic roster I'd seen assembled as a fan of 20+ years, I thought Renney fielded teams that were pretty hard working and tough to play against...more successful too.
I honestly feel that last seasons team was more consistent and tougher to play against than any since the mid 90's. Unfortunately, they were consistently lacking scoring (as were Renney's teams).

I wish they worked as hard this yr/season as they did last.

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10-24-2011, 03:48 PM
  #86
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I've seen plenty of teams with 5 players on the ice of combined talent level clearly below a combination of Richards, Gaborik, Girardi, McDonagh, and, say, Stepan, who seem to have a much easier time getting into the zone. Take that for what it's worth...

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10-24-2011, 04:09 PM
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I've seen plenty of teams with 5 players on the ice of combined talent level clearly below a combination of Richards, Gaborik, Girardi, McDonagh, and, say, Stepan, who seem to have a much easier time getting into the zone. Take that for what it's worth...
I agree... The talent is there on this roster. It's a long 82 season.

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10-24-2011, 05:17 PM
  #88
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I don't know what it is but I know it's boring to watch. Watching a western conf game and then turning on the Rangers it's like watching two different speeds of Hockey.

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10-24-2011, 06:15 PM
  #89
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Dump and chase isn't a system. Its certainly a part of a game plan, but it isn't a system. There are more complicated things going on then simple dump and chase.

The "system's" philosophy, without being a fly on the wall in practice, is based on forcing the opposition into areas of containment, pressuring the puck carrier, and forcing them to either get rid of it, or lose it via being out worked on the boards.

The dump is to get the defensemen on the heels. Rangers send forechecker 1 in and force the defenseman to his weak side. If successful, forechecker 2 will be in the passing lane to intercept. Forechecker 3 is high as a precaution, but there if forecheckers 1 & 2 are successful in forcing a turnover.

It allows one defenseman to pinch, due to the high man covering, if the opportunity presents its self. And that's where we see McDonagh jumping into the play.

Forcing the opposition to certain areas if the ice, containing them, should control their better offensive players, in theory. For example, if you lock the left side (their right wing) against Washington, Ovechkin has a tougher time, forcing him to try to beat guys 1v1, and with support, that can wear him down. Again, it isn't fool proof, its a game plan.

Its not a bad game plan. Its defensive minded, yes, and safe, yes, but it doesn't prohibit offense. Its up to the players to take advantage of the opportunities it creates. If they force the turn over, and have a scoring opportunity, ****ing up and shooting wide from 5 feet out in the slot is unacceptable.

And its perfectly fine to do run this game plan 5v5.

I can't defend it on the Power Play. Its inexcusable. They need to be more aggressive with the puck on the Power Play. They're too deliberate with the puck. Dubinsky refuses to shoot.

Beyond Richards and Gaborik, we do not have the players to consistently "gain the blue line".

Its not responsible to try to Rambo through the opposition. That's how you turn the puck over at the blue line and have an odd man rush the other way.

Again, other then Gaborik and Richards, we don't have the guys to abandon responsibility.

The offense shouldn't be struggling THIS badly, though. And I don't blame it on 5v5 play. I blame it on the Power Play.

And I agree this is where coaching comes in. We need to have more set plays, and aggressive puck movement and create shots and traffic on the Power Play.

5v5 we SHOULD be stingy defensively. Its easier to contain and come back from a one-two goal deficit. Not a 2-3 goal deficit. Which we would find ourselves in if we loosen up. Can't do that.

The difference maker is Special Teams. Especially the Power Play. If you score 1 PP goal per game, your chances if winning increases by a wide margin.

Don't take stupid penalties, stay within yourself 5v5, but ATTACK on the Power Play.

The lack of scoring depth/skill hurts, sure. But the Zuccarellos and Wolskis of the world are NOT the answer.

This team SHOULD be better then it was last year. And they may yet still be. But, its getting close to a point where something has to give. If they can't resolve the issue with what they have, they have to look externally and acquire a player that WILL help to resolve the issue.

Though, we can't afford to deplete the system, either. We are going to need Kreider, Miller, and McIlrath.

Any other prospect should be available.

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10-24-2011, 06:23 PM
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I should have added.

They COULD in theory, move the puck around... in the neutral zone...vomit at that notion... until a lane opens up and then carry it in...

But that makes you vulnerable to bad bad bad ugly turnovers that force Lundqvist to be super human.

So, getting to the red line or a bit further and getting it deep, and letting the game plan go to work, isn't a bad idea.

"Safe is death" if you have the team to get into a track meet. We don't.

"Opening" the game plan, leaves you begging for more responsibility eventually. Can't play like that consistently.

We don't have the horses.

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10-24-2011, 06:33 PM
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bunch of great analysis
Well said, dude. This is why I come here, for this type of input.

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10-24-2011, 07:30 PM
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Well said, dude. This is why I come here, for this type of input.
Thanks. Im just not against the "system" Torts is running.

Im pissed about the game plan on Special Teams. Because in this league, with whipy tippy tappy calls, Special Teams are PARAMOUNT. And are game breaking.

What im upset about is the regression from Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov thus far this season. Im upset about the lack of taking advantage of our opportunities.

Im upset about Wolski, Christensen, and Rupp being on this team, sucking up cap space and taking up VALUABLE roster spots. Because of these three useless players we only have 3 lines.

Get rid of these three blood suckers and put together a real second line.

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10-24-2011, 08:25 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Thanks. Im just not against the "system" Torts is running.

Im pissed about the game plan on Special Teams. Because in this league, with whipy tippy tappy calls, Special Teams are PARAMOUNT. And are game breaking.

What im upset about is the regression from Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov thus far this season. Im upset about the lack of taking advantage of our opportunities.

Im upset about Wolski, Christensen, and Rupp being on this team, sucking up cap space and taking up VALUABLE roster spots. Because of these three useless players we only have 3 lines.

Get rid of these three blood suckers and put together a real second line.
what ? blood suckers ?

wolski hasnt played.

rupp has played like 6.5 min per game so far. what do you expect from a 4th liner? and btw, he has more goals than feds, dubi, stepan and arty have.

ec ill agree. hes a doosh.

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10-24-2011, 09:01 PM
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we seemingly have no system to get the puck out of our own zone, let alone getting out of the zone with the puck and with speed to generate a rush. very frustrating how even the **** teams in the league are better at transitioning out of their own zone and into attack than we are.

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10-24-2011, 09:07 PM
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what ? blood suckers ?

wolski hasnt played.

rupp has played like 6.5 min per game so far. what do you expect from a 4th liner? and btw, he has more goals than feds, dubi, stepan and arty have.

ec ill agree. hes a doosh.
All three of them are useless.

Wolski has skill but he's braindead.

Rupp is slow, skill-less, and too expensive for his role.

Christensen isn't a "doosh". He's a good guy. He should be a scratch.

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10-24-2011, 11:27 PM
  #96
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Same story against Winnipeg.

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10-25-2011, 01:56 PM
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It sounds (and this isn't a criticism) as if you have an issue with his personality more than anything else. I'm sure there are many who agree. The guy may not be the type of coach that players/fans (certainly writers) like... I recall that being a selling point once Renney was fired actually. The culture of this team needed to be changed and Torts was a large part of that, like it or not. His methods may be questionable and his antics may be riduculous, even embarassing at times but he is what he is. He's taken this team from a bunch of entitled, money hungry princesses and turned them into a blue collar, hard working and hard to play against team.

His job is far from over... especially the putrid PP, but he's going to get a chance to finish what he's started.

As for the Xs and Os... I'm not sure. There are different coaches in every sport and they all have different methods. If you want an Xs and Os guy you're entitled. He may not be it... but I guarantee he has a gameplan and is trying to instill that system into these guys so they know it in their sleep.
You're spot on here. There was zero accountability when Mr. wax poetic/stay the course/safe is death Tom Renny was here as coach and his post game conferences were infuriating as heck. I was turning cartwheels across the floor the day I heard he was fired and replaced by Torts. Perhaps Torts is not a great tactician but he has held players accountable, instilled a strong work ethic and introduced/indoctrinated young homegrown talent into our lineup. Who gives a crap if he isn't media friendly and cuts his post game conferences short when the team mails in a stinker. I respect that approach a whole lot more than one in which the coach kisses up to the media and puts a smiley face on everything.

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10-25-2011, 07:19 PM
  #98
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Your last sentence pretty much answers the question. We have too many grinders and not even skill players. When we had guys like Jagr, Gomez, and Nylander, we never seemed to have a problem generating offense (I mention Gomez because he was excellent at carrying the puck up ice and into the offensive zone). Now the only players we have that can carry the puck into the zone are Richards, and to a lesser extent, Dubinsky. We have a lot of guys who succeed through working hard and grinding, and not by skill - essentially 3 lines of grinders. We're missing another skilled player, which would help round out our top 6 a lot better.
This. We are lacking purely talented players. We have one elite line and then 3 lines of mostly grinders and thats why we run the dump and chase, but like you mentioned in the first post, most good teams dont play that way; they usually play a puck control system.

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10-25-2011, 07:35 PM
  #99
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Same story against Winnipeg.
Mostly, but....

Power Play!

Special Teams are what make and break teams in this league now. Score on the PP and games can be won.

It wasn't pretty, but the Power Play was productive.

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10-27-2011, 10:49 AM
  #100
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There is a SKILL gap.
We are not optimally complementary.

The OP correctly (thank you) points out we have a basic move, which is predictable.

Some alteration of what we have might help a bit, but we need to consider trades.
And if we don't want to lose out in the long run, we may have to consider overpaying, but getting young pre-elite guys (keep the team young and energetic).

This will be expensive and distateful.
But until Kreider + maybe Miller get here, the alternative is to continue to get out shot every game, which is not a good plan.

PS -- let's give Hagelin + Bourque a shot after we've moved Wolski + EC.

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