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Old
10-25-2011, 10:38 AM
  #26
BleedOrange
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Glad to hear Couturier is staying with the big club he will be better off training and playing with the big club..........

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10-25-2011, 11:43 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
He deserves to stay, but part of me wanted him to go back and lead the WJC in scoring to shut up all the people that say Huberdeau or Strome is better.
He still can. He can't go back to the CHL but he CAN still be loaned to Team Canada for the Christmas World Junior tourament. I would be willing to be that he will be loaned to that team as it is good for his development.

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10-25-2011, 11:48 AM
  #28
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I don't think a year back in juniors would completely ruin his development, but if he can keep this play up I am happy to have him on the roster.

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10-25-2011, 11:49 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
He still can. He can't go back to the CHL but he CAN still be loaned to Team Canada for the Christmas World Junior tourament. I would be willing to be that he will be loaned to that team as it is good for his development.
1. I thought he could be sent back to the CHL at any point--its just that he will have burned a year on his contract, so there isn't much reason for the team to do it. He won't be returned unless he begins to struggle badly or some other acquisition makes him (temporarily) expendable, but isn't the option still there?

2. If he's on the Flyers, I doubt he's released. I believe the Blackhawks released Leddy to go to the WJC, but that's fairly unusual, isn't it? there's a substantial risk to the Flyers and relatively little reward for the team (I don't really buy that the WJC contributes much to the development of a player who's getting regular NHL minutes, but that's just me).

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10-25-2011, 11:54 AM
  #30
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Ive grown to really like cooter on the 4th...
I think lavvy is smart and knows its a long season...no reason to tire him out now.

Once he moved to the 4th it was obvious he was staying ....if his future was undecided, he'd be in the top 9 so they could see him play.

Him being on the 4th line means they know just how good he is, and they want him to be fresh/healthy all year.

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10-25-2011, 12:33 PM
  #31
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Funny, before the season started me and a few others were saying that playing on the fourth with PK minutes would be better for his development and we pretty much got ridiculed.

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10-25-2011, 12:34 PM
  #32
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Here is my issue: Is Couturier going to give you more now, or when he's 21?

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10-25-2011, 12:35 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
1. I thought he could be sent back to the CHL at any point--its just that he will have burned a year on his contract, so there isn't much reason for the team to do it. He won't be returned unless he begins to struggle badly or some other acquisition makes him (temporarily) expendable, but isn't the option still there?

2. If he's on the Flyers, I doubt he's released. I believe the Blackhawks released Leddy to go to the WJC, but that's fairly unusual, isn't it? there's a substantial risk to the Flyers and relatively little reward for the team (I don't really buy that the WJC contributes much to the development of a player who's getting regular NHL minutes, but that's just me).
This is correct. Couturier can be sent down at any time.

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10-25-2011, 12:42 PM
  #34
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Is Couturier going to give you more now, or when he's 21?
I have to think that the Flyers belief he will give them more when he's 21 if he's stays up now.

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10-25-2011, 12:48 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Here is my issue: Is Couturier going to give you more now, or when he's 21?
I don't understand the question.

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10-25-2011, 12:52 PM
  #36
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I think he's saying that Couturier's value on an ELC @ 21 is greater than his contribution to the team now.

I'm not overly worried about the cap considerations. Given the Flyers depth at forward, I don't think Couturier will have the opportunity to put up the monster numbers necessary to leverage a huge payday after his ELC expires. He'll be developed more slowly, and ultimately end up a much better all-around player.

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10-25-2011, 01:05 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think he's saying that Couturier's value on an ELC @ 21 is greater than his contribution to the team now.

I'm not overly worried about the cap considerations. Given the Flyers depth at forward, I don't think Couturier will have the opportunity to put up the monster numbers necessary to leverage a huge payday after his ELC expires. He'll be developed more slowly, and ultimately end up a much better all-around player.
I agree.

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10-25-2011, 01:08 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think he's saying that Couturier's value on an ELC @ 21 is greater than his contribution to the team now.

I'm not overly worried about the cap considerations. Given the Flyers depth at forward, I don't think Couturier will have the opportunity to put up the monster numbers necessary to leverage a huge payday after his ELC expires. He'll be developed more slowly, and ultimately end up a much better all-around player.
As if that matters.

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10-25-2011, 01:20 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think he's saying that Couturier's value on an ELC @ 21 is greater than his contribution to the team now.

I'm not overly worried about the cap considerations. Given the Flyers depth at forward, I don't think Couturier will have the opportunity to put up the monster numbers necessary to leverage a huge payday after his ELC expires. He'll be developed more slowly, and ultimately end up a much better all-around player.
The problem is Schenn, Couturier, Giroux, Meszaros, and Read will all need new contracts at the same time with the latter two reaching UFA status.

Cap wise it makes more sense to send him back than wasting his ELC on the 4th line. The Flyers are up against it the cap as it is as they are spending $5M+ on their 10-13th forwards. You'd also get far more value out of his ELC as a 21 year old than you will as an 18 year old on the 4th line, and you would be easing some of the burden in three years.

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10-25-2011, 01:46 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The problem is Schenn, Couturier, Giroux, Meszaros, and Read will all need new contracts at the same time with the latter two reaching UFA status.

Cap wise it makes more sense to send him back than wasting his ELC on the 4th line. The Flyers are up against it the cap as it is as they are spending $5M+ on their 10-13th forwards. You'd also get far more value out of his ELC as a 21 year old than you will as an 18 year old on the 4th line, and you would be easing some of the burden in three years.
I understand the argument about kicking his contact renewal back a year, I just think that, on balance, he's contributing enough to the team now to take that risk. Its a long season, injuries happen, and I could easily see him getting bumped up a line or two at some point throughout the year to fill in, either at center or on the wing. In the meantime, he's killing penalties and getting access to professional level strength and condition training.

I don't see Mez or Read as being major stumbling blocks in terms of the cap. Mez makes $4 million now, in the prime of his career age wise. With the projected increase in the cap over the next few years, I'm not certain he will end up taking up a greater share than he does now. Read, while off to a promising start, is a undrafted rookie, playing on the 3rd line who will be, what, 28 when he's up for a new contract. Let's not get crazy and pencil him in for a $5 million-dollar-a-year deal.

Giroux-Schenn- Couturier could get tricky, but its premature to worry about that. Look at the turnover on this team over the past few seasons--its not certain that all three are still with the team then. Even if they are, there should be plenty of room. Kimmo, Jagr, and Hartnell, at minimum, will all likely be gone by then--freeing up, what, $14 million in cap space? Briere's contract expires a year later, so while things could get tight for twelve months, there is flexibility long-term.


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10-25-2011, 01:52 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The problem is Schenn, Couturier, Giroux, Meszaros, and Read will all need new contracts at the same time with the latter two reaching UFA status.

Cap wise it makes more sense to send him back than wasting his ELC on the 4th line. The Flyers are up against it the cap as it is as they are spending $5M+ on their 10-13th forwards. You'd also get far more value out of his ELC as a 21 year old than you will as an 18 year old on the 4th line, and you would be easing some of the burden in three years.
How about the #1 PK? Who is taking that job? If he was just some scrub on the team then I would say send him back, however.....he is playing quality minutes and he is an important part of the PK unit. I heard Laviolette even said in 3 years Couturier will be leading this team in ice time. This is year 1 of his development, he is clearly ready, so why send him back if in three years he is going to be leading this team in ice time with his "current" progression?

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10-25-2011, 02:59 PM
  #42
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I always say " if the shoe fits wear it " And the NHL seems to fit him well....Many wanted BOB to go down last year, but that whole experience for him playing with the big club was good for him because he got a good taste of what its all about, and learned what adjustments he needed to make etc....I hope he stays up.

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10-25-2011, 05:36 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Tim P.'s article has been changed to show the correct Junior team (Drummondville not Gatineau).

And the CBA specifies "but does not play at least 10 games." Nine games or less is separated from 10 games or more.

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/flyers...308&feedID=695
I wonder if timmy proof reads his articles? But on the other hand when you know everything there is to know about hockey there is no need to. As far as Sean goes,I am happy for him. It looks like he has a grasp of the little things a pro needs to be successful. When he scored his first NHL goal and did not show up the other team when the score was so lopsided. The way he goes about his business. He speaks to the refs and linesman with no case of the jitters. By the looks of it his father did a very nice job in raising him up in a hockey environment. Good things are going to happen to this young man. And we should be lucky he dropped into our laps.

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10-25-2011, 06:59 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
1. I thought he could be sent back to the CHL at any point--its just that he will have burned a year on his contract, so there isn't much reason for the team to do it. He won't be returned unless he begins to struggle badly or some other acquisition makes him (temporarily) expendable, but isn't the option still there?

2. If he's on the Flyers, I doubt he's released. I believe the Blackhawks released Leddy to go to the WJC, but that's fairly unusual, isn't it? there's a substantial risk to the Flyers and relatively little reward for the team (I don't really buy that the WJC contributes much to the development of a player who's getting regular NHL minutes, but that's just me).
He could be loaned to the WJC team, but that would mean about a month out of the lineup with the pretourney games, and given how tight our cap is now, we could not call up, e.g. Holmstrom to replace him.

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10-25-2011, 08:19 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think he's saying that Couturier's value on an ELC @ 21 is greater than his contribution to the team now.
In the long run, we're all dead.

Play for this year. While you're in the hunt, it's never wrong to field the best team possible.

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10-25-2011, 08:29 PM
  #46
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Good, now lets give him a bigger role and some better line mates.

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10-25-2011, 09:35 PM
  #47
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I am just always concerned when a player breaks into the NHL at the age of 18. I guess it depends on what is expected of him. If his role of the future is a shut down center who can get maybe 60 points per season, then I guess it is OK. I would say that more often than not, the long term benefits of staying an extra year or two in junior outweigh the possible detrminent of making the team as an 18 yr old.

Many players have had their careers ruined or set back by being rushed. I don't know any who had careers ruined or set back because of staying an extra year in junior.

Heck, Joe Sakic refused to go pro because he believed he needed another year of junior.

All this to say I would prefer they send him back to junior, not only for his contract, but for long term safety.

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10-25-2011, 10:08 PM
  #48
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I am just always concerned when a player breaks into the NHL at the age of 18. I guess it depends on what is expected of him. If his role of the future is a shut down center who can get maybe 60 points per season, then I guess it is OK. I would say that more often than not, the long term benefits of staying an extra year or two in junior outweigh the possible detrminent of making the team as an 18 yr old.

Many players have had their careers ruined or set back by being rushed. I don't know any who had careers ruined or set back because of staying an extra year in junior.

Heck, Joe Sakic refused to go pro because he believed he needed another year of junior.

All this to say I would prefer they send him back to junior, not only for his contract, but for long term safety.
But how is being rushed if he's being spoonfed minutes? I mean, when Joe Thornton was a rookie, Pat Burns limited his ice time as well and Thornton went on to be a hell of a player as a result. Sometimes, players just outgrow their environments and need to adapt to a new challenge.

What has to be admired is that Couturier has taken on a role that not many players enjoy. There's no recognition to the type of role that Couturier has taken on. What's remarkable is that he's become a defensive conscience at 18 years old. I don't know of any other player at that age who has stepped in and performed such a difficult role on a contending team. That's what makes this real special - you never hear of 18 year olds excelling at the defensive game like this.

There's no doubt that Couturier won't win rookie of the year. The role he's playing right now, he just won't put up the numbers that a Ryan Nugent-Hopkins will put up. But I will say this - in three years from now, he'll probably be the most complete player in the game and dare I say it, a Joe Thornton type player with shut down defensive skills and an impressive offensive game to match. He will be the number one guy in Philadelphia in a few more years and that's saying something (especially because I'm a huge Giroux fan, but Couturier might just be a generational talent).

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10-25-2011, 10:58 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
But how is being rushed if he's being spoonfed minutes? I mean, when Joe Thornton was a rookie, Pat Burns limited his ice time as well and Thornton went on to be a hell of a player as a result. Sometimes, players just outgrow their environments and need to adapt to a new challenge.

What has to be admired is that Couturier has taken on a role that not many players enjoy. There's no recognition to the type of role that Couturier has taken on. What's remarkable is that he's become a defensive conscience at 18 years old. I don't know of any other player at that age who has stepped in and performed such a difficult role on a contending team. That's what makes this real special - you never hear of 18 year olds excelling at the defensive game like this.

There's no doubt that Couturier won't win rookie of the year. The role he's playing right now, he just won't put up the numbers that a Ryan Nugent-Hopkins will put up. But I will say this - in three years from now, he'll probably be the most complete player in the game and dare I say it, a Joe Thornton type player with shut down defensive skills and an impressive offensive game to match. He will be the number one guy in Philadelphia in a few more years and that's saying something (especially because I'm a huge Giroux fan, but Couturier might just be a generational talent).
Couturier is already a good NHL player. His vision and passing are superb, he's got scoring instincts, isn't afraid to get dirty, and he can skate and hit despite the need to grow into his body.

I am particularly impressed by the long passes off the boards, either out of the zone or back to the points that he makes. Great touch and he always gets the puck out of the zone.

If he can play the year on the 4th line, learn the pro game from Max Talbot, and be one of our key penalty killers, it will do wonders for his development.

Based on the preseason, I was prepared to send him back on principle, and it could still happen, but he's clearly ready for the NHL.

That said, if you've been watching Brayden Schenn for the last few games, it's apparent that Schenn is smoother and is a creative, skilled passer too. He gets into position, his linemates haven't hit him yet, and he's had some great scoring chances. He's ready to play in the top 9 now - and I'm OK if it's at LW. We converted a Jr. star C once who was a pretty smooth skater and smart two-way player. What was his name? Oh yeah, Gagne. Schenn isn't as fast, but he hits a lot more.

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10-25-2011, 11:25 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
But how is being rushed if he's being spoonfed minutes? I mean, when Joe Thornton was a rookie, Pat Burns limited his ice time as well and Thornton went on to be a hell of a player as a result. Sometimes, players just outgrow their environments and need to adapt to a new challenge.
I think, that for contract sake, as well as safety, it is wiser to keep him in junior. He is not going to put us over the top. Why rush him? Also, many young players can start strong, but then the physicality and the wear of the season begins to take its toll, and then he will get less and less minutes. I think that the risk it too great and not worth the possible reward.

Do you think that being a 4th liner will allow him to continue to get 10 plus minutes per night? I think back to Sbisa and remember when he was scratched due to his inexperience. Perhaps it is due to being a defenseman. Maybe a 4th line role will work out better.

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