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JVR's ice time

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Old
10-25-2011, 08:52 PM
  #26
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He's still young, not really that worried plus doesn't it take power forwards longer to develop?

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10-25-2011, 09:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by RespectTheMajor View Post
He's still young, not really that worried plus doesn't it take power forwards longer to develop?
It does.

He's now 22-years-old and has 161 games under his belt. He has a phenomenal post-season series under his belt...

The parade of harmless perimeter-dangling attempts is approaching cringe-territory. He has to contribute something more.

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10-25-2011, 10:50 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
For JvR: 8 Games, four points, shuffled lines, inconsistent power play time, lots of scoring chances.

Summary of the Flyers fan base recently: JvR didn't deserve an extension, Jagr has passed his prime, Bryz sucks and wasn't the answer, Brayden Schenn is terrible and belongs in the AHL for the year, Hartnell should be scratched and Briere isn't what he once was.
JVR also had an injury at the end of camp, groin strain was the rumour IIRC, so it might be that he's not 100% yet.

Anyway, he was playing really well with Giroux and Jagr. I thought he looked good with Voracek at times vs. the Leafs.

It's a long season and he's going to contribute.


Last edited by Larry44: 10-26-2011 at 02:00 PM.
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10-25-2011, 10:53 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
You clearly don't get it. It does not matter AT ALL what contract he is currently playing under. The criticism is the fact that he was given an extension at this time. The entire question is whether or not he was deserving of it at the time he signed it. What I, and others have argued, was that perhaps we should have waited just a little bit longer, to ensure he is closer to playoff JVR than the JVR we've seen elsewhere.

To paint a picture...

Let's say JVR signed a 6 year 42 million deal, so 7 million per year. Would you not be saying that the extension was unwarranted, because his play has not done enough to indicate he is a 7 million a year player? I don't care that he is still only making ~1.6 right now, he's still going to earn 7 for the next 6 years, regardless of how well or how poorly he plays under his current contract.
He signed a $4m contract, not $7m, so therefor, the expectation is that he will be a $4m player by the time the salary takes effect.

It's reasonable to expect him to be a $4m player by that time, so unless he does not play like a $4m player next season, you can't criticize the contract. If he signed a $7m contract, it would be extremely unreasonable to expect him to be a $7m player when the contract started.

Are we paying for potential? Absolutely. But it's perfectly reasonable to expect him to reach that level. Like I said, it would not be reasonable to expect him to play into a $7m contract. I understand your argument, I really do, but the thing is that JVR in all likelihood will be a $4m player by this time next year. And if he isnt, he should be close. He already is close in my opinion.

And that's not even considering the fact that the contract expects him to still be a $4m player six years from now. This discussion is only about the short term, so I'll ignore this point, but when analyzing the contract, it's important to remember that.

Does he "deserve" the extension right now? Nope. Never said he did. But he is close enough that it would be reasonable to suggest that some time in the near future, he will deserve that type of a contract. A $7m deal, however, would simply be unreasonable to expect him to deserve.

As far as this discussion goes, his contract extension should be left out. He has 12 more months before I start calling it overpayment, and I'm sure both parties had that in mind when it was signed.

He's been underperforming to this point...but he's still developing and it is very early. He has 4 points in 8 games. As Jagr just showed us, one big game can make a big difference, and we all know JVR is capable of having one big game. If you look at all the big point producers in the NHL, none of them are consistently putting up points game after game (except those who are in Art Ross contention). Most players rely on multi point games and hot stretches to reach the ~70 points that we expect from JVR. I'm not concerned with his production at all. A 2 point game here and a 3 point game there makes up for the goose eggs on the board now. Look at any player's game log, that's how it's done in the NHL. Not many players are on the score sheet for more than about 50 games a season. Take Phil Kessel for example- 15 points in 8 games. You can bet that he'll be held scoreless later in the season. The highs always balance out the lows and vice versa. That's why stats right now mean absolutely nothing even in the context of this specific season......let alone in the context of a contract that doesnt even start until a year from now.

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10-25-2011, 11:04 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by OriginJM View Post
22 years old isn't at young as you think it is nowadays. Skinner put up 60+ points at 18, THAT'S young. JvR is on his 3rd season as a full time NHL'er and hasn't shown that he can carry a team, let alone a line (besides the short playoff stint of course). Besides one ridiculous backhand I remember him having over Lundqvist, he doesn't really have a shot. His hands aren't excellent as well. He usually just drives wide and tosses it on net. He's just big and fast. I still really hope I'm incredibly wrong and he just busts out with 70+ points. Really...really hope.
Skinner had PLENTY of opportunities to get chances on the PP. Carolina doesn't exactly have an overflowing talent situation and to his credit he siezed the opportunities he was given.

I loled earlier in the season when i read that Pierre McGuire thought Matt Read had a chance at the Calder...he might have the talent, but he won't get the ice time. Its just not going to happen on this roster. Couturier looks pretty awesome...on another team he might have a shot at it...not here.

I'll disagree about JVRs talents. I think he has great hands.

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10-25-2011, 11:13 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Right now I'm afraid he's heading to the same spot Coburn is in...a player with RIDICULOUS tools who can't put it all together to become an elite player.
Well, I can't say I think Coburn has RIDICULOUS tools. He's a good skater for his size, but he has no vision or and isn't really good with his hands.

He's a #3/4. A solid guy.

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10-25-2011, 11:19 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlyers1825 View Post
Sorry, but did you used to post on ESPN?
Yes, i was on there alot because my work didn't websense it, so it was a good place to post. Now its dead dead dead there after the redesign.

Why is that a sorry?


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 10-25-2011 at 11:23 PM. Reason: fixing quotes
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10-25-2011, 11:25 PM
  #33
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In addition, coming in to tonight we were 3rd in the league in goals....its not like JVR's "lack" of points is hurting us now. Its a LONG season.

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10-26-2011, 02:06 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Hanson Brothers View Post
Kinda surprised that nobody is talking about JVR's ice time. Last three games just about 12 minutes. And he was even taken off the PP2 in the last game. Is he really playing so poorly? Or just in the coach's dog house?

Also, Voracek's ice time is surprisingly low. I'd have guessed these two would be playing regularly 17-18+ minutes each evening. Their skill level should have them in the top 6 without a question.
JVR is not playing near the level from the playoffs. If he keeps moving his legs, working hard and taking the puck to the net, he can generate scoring chances all by himself. He isn't doing it so his minutes have been cut.

Voracek does not seem to have found chemistry with anyone yet. He also plays far out on the perimeter IMO. Hopefully both find their game soon.

Has JVR ever played with Briere on a even strength line? If he has, I don't remember it. JVR taking it hard to the net and we know Briere can put in rebounds from in tight as can Simmonds?

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10-26-2011, 04:08 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
You clearly don't get it. It does not matter AT ALL what contract he is currently playing under. The criticism is the fact that he was given an extension at this time. The entire question is whether or not he was deserving of it at the time he signed it. What I, and others have argued, was that perhaps we should have waited just a little bit longer, to ensure he is closer to playoff JVR than the JVR we've seen elsewhere.

To paint a picture...

Let's say JVR signed a 6 year 42 million deal, so 7 million per year. Would you not be saying that the extension was unwarranted, because his play has not done enough to indicate he is a 7 million a year player? I don't care that he is still only making ~1.6 right now, he's still going to earn 7 for the next 6 years, regardless of how well or how poorly he plays under his current contract.
It's a tricky game you're playing with things like this... If JVR becomes the player many of us expect him to be (60-70+ points this year, 70+ points consistently in the future), then the price on him instantly goes up. You're not going to sign him for $4.25M per year after he's proven playoff JVR is for real over a full season... it's going to be $6M or $7M per year. And when you make the leap to that salary, it means you're probably not going to have room to re-sign all of your young talented players.

Homer got a price on JVR that many on here would consider a bargain. I would include myself in that group. On the low-end of JVR's development, you have to assume he is worth about 20+ goals and 50+ points per year. I can show you numerous players in the league who put up those stats, are older than JVR, and are paid at or around that price. Scott Hartnell is one of them. And Scott Hartnell is still a tradeable commodity. Even if JVR doesn't develop a lick, he is still worth his contract putting up 50 points a year, when you compare him to others making around 4.25M per season.

If JVR does develop more (as we all expect), then this contract will be a major coup for Homer, as JVR will end up getting paid much less than his market value.

What I see in this contract is one with a very limited downside and a large upside potential... I seriously don't understand how anybody could be mad about it.

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10-26-2011, 05:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
My lord this fanbase is so retardedly fickle.
He's TWENTY-TWO years old. His body isn't even done growing...he has exceptional speed for his size and great hands. He's has like 3 great chances so far that were flat out rob jobs this season...AND this team is so deep he isn't NEEDED to log crazy minutes. If he was on MTL he'd play 22 minutes a game and be the face of the franchise...

Settle down...


Agreed.

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10-26-2011, 01:14 PM
  #37
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He signed a $4m contract, not $7m, so therefor, the expectation is that he will be a $4m player by the time the salary takes effect.

It's reasonable to expect him to be a $4m player by that time, so unless he does not play like a $4m player next season, you can't criticize the contract. If he signed a $7m contract, it would be extremely unreasonable to expect him to be a $7m player when the contract started.

Are we paying for potential? Absolutely. But it's perfectly reasonable to expect him to reach that level. Like I said, it would not be reasonable to expect him to play into a $7m contract. I understand your argument, I really do, but the thing is that JVR in all likelihood will be a $4m player by this time next year. And if he isnt, he should be close. He already is close in my opinion.

And that's not even considering the fact that the contract expects him to still be a $4m player six years from now. This discussion is only about the short term, so I'll ignore this point, but when analyzing the contract, it's important to remember that.

Does he "deserve" the extension right now? Nope. Never said he did. But he is close enough that it would be reasonable to suggest that some time in the near future, he will deserve that type of a contract. A $7m deal, however, would simply be unreasonable to expect him to deserve.

As far as this discussion goes, his contract extension should be left out. He has 12 more months before I start calling it overpayment, and I'm sure both parties had that in mind when it was signed.

He's been underperforming to this point...but he's still developing and it is very early. He has 4 points in 8 games. As Jagr just showed us, one big game can make a big difference, and we all know JVR is capable of having one big game. If you look at all the big point producers in the NHL, none of them are consistently putting up points game after game (except those who are in Art Ross contention). Most players rely on multi point games and hot stretches to reach the ~70 points that we expect from JVR. I'm not concerned with his production at all. A 2 point game here and a 3 point game there makes up for the goose eggs on the board now. Look at any player's game log, that's how it's done in the NHL. Not many players are on the score sheet for more than about 50 games a season. Take Phil Kessel for example- 15 points in 8 games. You can bet that he'll be held scoreless later in the season. The highs always balance out the lows and vice versa. That's why stats right now mean absolutely nothing even in the context of this specific season......let alone in the context of a contract that doesnt even start until a year from now.
We are discussing COMPLETELY different things.

You are talking about if he will be a $4 million dollar player come next year. I, and everyone else that criticized the contract, are talking about whether he DESERVERED such a contract at the time in which he signed it, and whether or not it was too risky. I used the 7 million rather than 4 million argument to prove that the numbers dont mean a thing. The argument is about the timing of the extension, not how much it is, or what contract he is currently playing under.

Almost everyone (myself included) likes JVR. Almost everyone (myself included) expects him to improve. All we are saying is that, we would have rathered we waited to give him this contract because it is RISKY. We "bought high" if you will. The kid had an unreal playoff (which was far beyond anything we'd ever seen of him before), and we paid him for it. We paid him for the small sample, not the big one.

So people saying "it doesn't matter bc he's still playing under his old contract" are missing the terms of the argument.

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10-26-2011, 01:19 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
It's a tricky game you're playing with things like this... If JVR becomes the player many of us expect him to be (60-70+ points this year, 70+ points consistently in the future), then the price on him instantly goes up. You're not going to sign him for $4.25M per year after he's proven playoff JVR is for real over a full season... it's going to be $6M or $7M per year. And when you make the leap to that salary, it means you're probably not going to have room to re-sign all of your young talented players.

Homer got a price on JVR that many on here would consider a bargain. I would include myself in that group. On the low-end of JVR's development, you have to assume he is worth about 20+ goals and 50+ points per year. I can show you numerous players in the league who put up those stats, are older than JVR, and are paid at or around that price. Scott Hartnell is one of them. And Scott Hartnell is still a tradeable commodity. Even if JVR doesn't develop a lick, he is still worth his contract putting up 50 points a year, when you compare him to others making around 4.25M per season.

If JVR does develop more (as we all expect), then this contract will be a major coup for Homer, as JVR will end up getting paid much less than his market value.

What I see in this contract is one with a very limited downside and a large upside potential... I seriously don't understand how anybody could be mad about it.
I don't know how many times it has to be said...I completely understand and agree with everything you are saying. I understand the rationale.

My point, and the entire discussion about the extension, is about WHEN it happened. Again, we paid for the small sample, not the big one. All anyone is saying, is that it would have been less risky, to wait a LITTLE longer.

I mean, afterall, what JVR have we been seeing so far this year, playoff JVR or regular JVR? Enough said. And that's the risk.

We paid him as if he DID turn the corner. Well now we are back to HOPING he turns the corner. Waiting could have prevented that.

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10-26-2011, 02:41 PM
  #39
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Yes, i was on there alot because my work didn't websense it, so it was a good place to post. Now its dead dead dead there after the redesign.

Why is that a sorry?
Said sorry just because it was kind of interupting you.

I was just a lurker, youre name looked quite familiar.

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10-26-2011, 05:02 PM
  #40
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I don't know how many times it has to be said...I completely understand and agree with everything you are saying. I understand the rationale.

My point, and the entire discussion about the extension, is about WHEN it happened. Again, we paid for the small sample, not the big one. All anyone is saying, is that it would have been less risky, to wait a LITTLE longer.

I mean, afterall, what JVR have we been seeing so far this year, playoff JVR or regular JVR? Enough said. And that's the risk.

We paid him as if he DID turn the corner. Well now we are back to HOPING he turns the corner. Waiting could have prevented that.
I disagree. We didn't pay him as if he turned the corner... if we paid in full for the playoff JVR, he would be making about $6M per season. Likewise, we didn't pay for regular season JVR... if we did, he'd be making somewhere around 3.5 million. We paid somewhere in the middle. And that's fine by me...

Because even if you're a total JVR hater, you have to assume he will develop at least a little bit more, putting the absolute floor for JVR's worth somewhere around 4M per season.

Homer was willing to take the gamble that JVR continues to develop in order to cut down on the salary he has to pay him. In finance, this concept would be called a "risk premium". You require a higher risk premium (in this case, a higher discount on the contract) when the future is more unknown. If we waited (as you seem to be advocating) and JVR continued to perform as he did in the playoffs, there would be less risk to signing him to a long term deal, and thus a lower risk premium, so you would end up signing him for about $6M per season instead of the bargain $4.2M you signed him for.

Homer is gambling on his ability to judge talent and JVR is hedging against a future injury or drop in his level of play... it works for both sides.

What the Flyers have essentially done is purchased a $100 investment that has a floor of $90 and a cap of $150 (I just pulled these numbers out of my arse). They have an investment w/ very limited downside and a pronounced upside. Who wouldn't take this investment?

Whereas if we waited, the price goes up (say to $120) and the downside shrinks (say to $115 so the most you can lose is $5), but the upside also shrinks (say to $140, so the most you can make is $20).

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10-27-2011, 08:15 AM
  #41
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JVR is -7 in his last 6 games.

Right now he plays like a marginal NHLer and not like the future cornerstone of this franchise. I know he is still young and he has tremendous upside but he looks lost out there right now...

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10-27-2011, 08:33 AM
  #42
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I don't understand why people consider him a power forward

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10-27-2011, 08:47 AM
  #43
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JVR was at his best this season playing on Girouxís line with Jagr. Iím not happy with him on a line with Voracek and Read but the fact of the matter is Hartnell has outplayed him in the last 3-4 games and is deserving of first line minutes over JVR.

Iím not seeing the jump and acceleration that was there late last season and in the playoffs. I donít know if it is an injury, preparation thing or just his line but he has not delivered so far this year. Itís is concerning because they aer counting on him heavily to make up for the lost goals of Richards and Carter. Without his goals the Flyers are going to have a very tough time scoring consistently

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10-27-2011, 08:51 AM
  #44
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I'm a bit stupid at times.


Last edited by mirimon: 10-27-2011 at 08:56 AM.
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10-27-2011, 08:55 AM
  #45
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JVR was at his best this season playing on Girouxís line with Jagr. Iím not happy with him on a line with Voracek and Read but the fact of the matter is Hartnell has outplayed him in the last 3-4 games and is deserving of first line minutes over JVR.

Iím not seeing the jump and acceleration that was there late last season and in the playoffs. I donít know if it is an injury, preparation thing or just his line but he has not delivered so far this year. Itís is concerning because they aer counting on him heavily to make up for the lost goals of Richards and Carter. Without his goals the Flyers are going to have a very tough time scoring consistently
The JvR-Read-Voracek line hasn't worked at all. I think Read should be at wing, get Schenn to center and have JvR or Read play with BriŤre and Simmonds.

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10-27-2011, 08:58 AM
  #46
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I don't understand why people consider him a power forward
EA Sports?

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10-27-2011, 09:03 AM
  #47
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The JvR-Read-Voracek line hasn't worked at all. I think Read should be at wing, get Schenn to center and have JvR or Read play with BriŤre and Simmonds.
I just proposed the JVR-Briere-Simmonds line combination in the game thread. JVR needs to be playing a simple game right now and Voracek is too fancy with the puck to provide him those opportunities at the front of the net. What I love the most about Briereís game is his ability to stick handle pucks on tight corners, specifically behind the net where he is able to practically baby feed his forwards goals point blank. Hartnell made a living off those types of goals playing with Briere. Thatís what JVR needs right now.

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10-27-2011, 09:06 AM
  #48
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I disagree. We didn't pay him as if he turned the corner... if we paid in full for the playoff JVR, he would be making about $6M per season. Likewise, we didn't pay for regular season JVR... if we did, he'd be making somewhere around 3.5 million. We paid somewhere in the middle. And that's fine by me...

Because even if you're a total JVR hater, you have to assume he will develop at least a little bit more, putting the absolute floor for JVR's worth somewhere around 4M per season.

Homer was willing to take the gamble that JVR continues to develop in order to cut down on the salary he has to pay him. In finance, this concept would be called a "risk premium". You require a higher risk premium (in this case, a higher discount on the contract) when the future is more unknown. If we waited (as you seem to be advocating) and JVR continued to perform as he did in the playoffs, there would be less risk to signing him to a long term deal, and thus a lower risk premium, so you would end up signing him for about $6M per season instead of the bargain $4.2M you signed him for.

Homer is gambling on his ability to judge talent and JVR is hedging against a future injury or drop in his level of play... it works for both sides.

What the Flyers have essentially done is purchased a $100 investment that has a floor of $90 and a cap of $150 (I just pulled these numbers out of my arse). They have an investment w/ very limited downside and a pronounced upside. Who wouldn't take this investment?

Whereas if we waited, the price goes up (say to $120) and the downside shrinks (say to $115 so the most you can lose is $5), but the upside also shrinks (say to $140, so the most you can make is $20).
Flyers paid JVR the market rate fir a proven scorer last summer in free agency. Let's not act like it was a bargain price.

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10-27-2011, 09:10 AM
  #49
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I just proposed the JVR-Briere-Simmonds line combination in the game thread. JVR needs to be playing a simple game right now and Voracek is too fancy with the puck to provide him those opportunities at the front of the net. What I love the most about Briereís game is his ability to stick handle pucks on tight corners, specifically behind the net where he is able to practically baby feed his forwards goals point blank. Hartnell made a living off those types of goals playing with Briere. Thatís what JVR needs right now.
To a point, I agree--but Briere is playing pretty poorly himself at the moment. I'm concerned that putting him and JVR together might make the situation worse rather than better.

JVR is a player, more than most, who seems to thrive on confidence. I think he's better off when he's the "best" player on his line. He looked overwhelmed by playing with Giroux and Jagr.

I'd like to see him with Couturier and Read. The three would make for a far more direct approach, and I love Couturier's hockey sense and vision with the speed of the other two.

Probably won't happen unless some other forward gets hurt / moved--but I wish Laviolette would give Couturier a bit more ES ice time.

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10-27-2011, 09:14 AM
  #50
duffy9748
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I know Giroux and Jagr have been great together but what about splitting them up to get JVR and Briere going.

Hartnell-Briere-Jagr
JVR-Giroux-Simmonds
Voracek-Schenn-Read
Nodl-Couturier-Talbot

I think flipping Read and Hartnell in this line up could work as well


PP Unit #1

Simmonds-Giroux-Jagr
Meszaros-Read

#2

Voracek/Hartnell-Briere-JVR
Timonen-Carle

I agree with whoever said JVR isn't a power forward. He can use his size well but his game is better suited when he has the puck and can control it instead of just crashing the net.

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