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Big Trade or Tanking ?

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Old
10-25-2011, 01:59 PM
  #201
DougHarvey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windycity View Post
Ok, completely off topic but who is the woman in your avatar? Rose McGowan (sp)?
It's Alicia Witt

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Old
10-25-2011, 05:29 PM
  #202
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Its time to make a move that will make a difference.

TRADE Pleks and Gomez to Ott. for Spezza,
Filatov, and a D-man that can play in the NHL.

Then turn PK Subban into a Center. Then we will have Spezza and PK Subban as our 1st and 2nd line centers. Can you IMAGINE the possibilities with Subban playing center?

Pleks is a good player however, he is not a 1st line center. He is not a pass first shoot second type player. We need a pass first shoot second type center to set up our good shooting wingers with some quality shooting chances.

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Old
10-25-2011, 05:37 PM
  #203
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There is nothing that can fix this team with the d they have.
Half belong in the ahl, Gorges and Gill are bottom pairing calibre and Subban is going through some growing pains.

No more trading picks for temporary fixes that lead to quick playoff exits. Ride it out and build from within.

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10-26-2011, 07:22 AM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosti46 View Post
Its time to make a move that will make a difference.

TRADE Pleks and Gomez to Ott. for Spezza,
Filatov, and a D-man that can play in the NHL.

Then turn PK Subban into a Center. Then we will have Spezza and PK Subban as our 1st and 2nd line centers. Can you IMAGINE the possibilities with Subban playing center?

Pleks is a good player however, he is not a 1st line center. He is not a pass first shoot second type player. We need a pass first shoot second type center to set up our good shooting wingers with some quality shooting chances.

huh?!?!? do you really think that a good but not 1st line center, plus Gomez( who I can't describe anymore) would fetch Spezza, a real 1str line center, plus Filatov, plus NHL ready D?

oh ok PK playing center I get it you're joking.

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10-26-2011, 08:03 AM
  #205
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We should mega-trade with Colombus. Two bad teams. Let's get Brassard and Umberger and long shot-Nash.

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10-26-2011, 08:16 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougHarvey View Post
You were making sense until the Koivu remark. He had more grit than most of this year's team combined. He was a warrior for this team. They just surrounded him with clowns and castoffs.
Meh. Koivu was a second line ctr, at best. Wasted too much time and money.

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Old
10-26-2011, 08:48 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosti46 View Post
Its time to make a move that will make a difference.

TRADE Pleks and Gomez to Ott. for Spezza,
Filatov, and a D-man that can play in the NHL.

Then turn PK Subban into a Center. Then we will have Spezza and PK Subban as our 1st and 2nd line centers. Can you IMAGINE the possibilities with Subban playing center?

Pleks is a good player however, he is not a 1st line center. He is not a pass first shoot second type player. We need a pass first shoot second type center to set up our good shooting wingers with some quality shooting chances.
P.K. playing center? P.K. is not the Subban that can play forward as you wished him to, Jordan is.

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Old
10-26-2011, 09:22 AM
  #208
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Should the Habs tank?

Good take from Mathias Brunet about the current situation... Mostly about the possibility of " Tanking "...

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hoc...3_section_POS1

Sorry if this has been posted somewhere already...

Cheers

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Old
10-26-2011, 09:25 AM
  #209
Mathradio
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We need not target the first overall pick, just #2-3 or so.

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Old
10-26-2011, 09:26 AM
  #210
MathMan
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Nice article, as Brunet gives the right answer to the question ("a qualified no, it's prone to failure and there are other good models").

He's a little harsh on the Habs, but the notion that a 1-4-2 team might actually be playing rather well is a controversial notion given the current media coverage, so I won't fault him for not entertaining it.

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Old
10-26-2011, 09:40 AM
  #211
bcv
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I'm not in favor of a complete rebuilt. But maybe one or two years of high drafting + new coaches/management would be good for this team.

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10-26-2011, 09:46 AM
  #212
MathMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcv View Post
I'm not in favor of a complete rebuilt. But maybe one or two years of high drafting + new coaches/management would be good for this team.
Coaching and management is actually doing a pretty good job. Just consider this stretch by the Habs to be similar to the Capitals' infamous losing streak of last year.

It's true that an unlucky down year, like happened to Philly (and to a lesser extent Boston) might net a good player to help accelerate the gradual improvement. But the Habs are playing too well, right now, for that to become very likely. Of course, if their players keep dropping like flies, all bets are off.

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Old
10-26-2011, 09:50 AM
  #213
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My only problem with tanking or losing is how this losing culture may effect our core players of (Price, Subban, Patches, Eller). Will it affect if they will re-sign with us? Will it stunted their growth as players?

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Old
10-26-2011, 10:05 AM
  #214
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I don't want a 100% re-build because I want to make the playoffs and remain in the playoff and competitive picture still, however, I would not mind a top three pick this season and build around the following core:

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Gionta
Pacioretty - Eller - Kristo
Avstin - Leblanc - Gallagher
Conboy - White - Berger

Beaulieu - Subban
Tinordi - Diaz
Gorges - Weber

Price


So, basically, if we draft either Yakupov, Murray or Forsberg, we are in good shape going forward, imagine one of the following:

For more, check out:

http://www.mynhldraft.com/NHL-Mock-Draft/

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Yakupov

OR

Murray - Subban
Tinordi - Beaulieu
Gorges - Weber

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Old
10-26-2011, 10:27 AM
  #215
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There is no way they tank...you can't charge people 200.00 to 400.00 a seat, and try to tank...the Leafs didn't purposely tank, we are not going to...

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Old
10-26-2011, 10:39 AM
  #216
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What's important to me is that the team shows a willingness to be the best on any given night.

I've noticed a big drop in "buzz" surrounding the team this year. There just wasn't as much excitement for the upcoming season as experienced in the last 2-3 years. Perhaps this is related to the 100th centennial celebrations being over.

But nothing gets a fan more excited than:
1) winning
2) seeing spectacular displays of skill (crazy dekes, huge hits, sprawling saves, etc)

We're not getting our fix of any of those 2; we're losing while playing an uninspired style... so it's driving us nuts.

I believe we have the assets right now to get back into the playoff mix and getting some spice back into our game.

- Plekanec
- Cammelleri
- Subban
- Price
- Eller
- Kostitsyn
- Pacioretty
- Markov

These are all players fantastic players that any team would love to have (yes, even Kosty).

We have already shown an ability to win with the current core. Many players have woo'd us with spectacular and clutch play.

Don't believe the haters, our depth is actually pretty good! Just image if Gauthier hadn't signed brought in Emelin, Diaz & Campoli! We'd be so screwed it's not even funny.

- vs Buffalo
- vs Colorado
- vs Florida
- vs Toronto (2nd game)

These are all games we should/could have won. We're making some mistakes and paying hard for them... so team confidence is pretty low. I believe we have proud players, like our captain Brian Gionta, that will play through this bad stretch and we'll be back on track to making the playoffs with a competitive team.

So.. No to tanking.

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Old
10-26-2011, 10:52 AM
  #217
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Absolutly yes !! But I know they are too good to finish in the bottom 5. I want them to tank because in all honesty I don't care if they win or not the Stanley cup , all I want is a good entertaiment . A young superstar like yakupov is very exciting to watch .

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Old
10-26-2011, 10:54 AM
  #218
Jakomyte
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Tanking is no guarantee of anything. We could easily end up picking a Stefan/Turris/Filatov with our high pick and have wasted a season for nothing. Its always better when the Habs are winning... period.

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10-26-2011, 10:59 AM
  #219
gillyguzzler
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No tanking now. If, however, a playoff spot is improbable at the trade deadline, it would be a good time to get rid of a few contracts :

Gomez - who knows, maybe?
Gionta - the captain, I know... but remember Damphousse, Turgeon, Keane, ...
Cammy - playoff performer - we might get overpayment
AK46 - if JM is still the coach and they intend on him coaching again next year, trade AK
Moen - get what you can
Cole - depending on how the rest of this season goes
Gill - get what you can
Campoli - get what you can

Again, this is only if a playoff spot is unlikely. But if everyone's healthy by the trade deadline and a playoff spot is possible, go for it. A full healthy lineup with Price playing well could be scary in the playoffs.

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Old
10-26-2011, 11:00 AM
  #220
Mathradio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
Absolutly yes !! But I know they are too good to finish in the bottom 5. I want them to tank because in all honesty I don't care if they win or not the Stanley cup , all I want is a good entertaiment . A young superstar like yakupov is very exciting to watch .
We're not getting Yakupov outside the bottom-5, no more than we are getting Grigorenko. Forsberg maybe or Gaunce if we don't draft too high. Grigorenko can be had with a #2-4 pick but I think he'll be off the board by #5. I myself had Grigorenko at #2.

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Old
10-26-2011, 11:04 AM
  #221
Bronn
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Purposely tanking ? Probably not but i'm all for a firesale at the deadline or a bit sooner if the team doesn't go anywhere and is a bottom dweller by the end of January-early February. That and a complete change of management at every levels (coaching , GM ect).

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Old
10-26-2011, 11:16 AM
  #222
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Nice article, as Brunet gives the right answer to the question ("a qualified no, it's prone to failure and there are other good models").
Right. Why try to build a winner when we can just stick with mediocrity. No, we won't win a cup but hey... at least we can fight for 8th every year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Tanking is no guarantee of anything. We could easily end up picking a Stefan/Turris/Filatov with our high pick and have wasted a season for nothing. Its always better when the Habs are winning... period.
Going out and building around the leftovers from other clubs is recipe for success then? The only guarantee we've had from that is almost two decades of being a perpetual bubble playoff team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Its always better when the Habs are winning... period.
Winning what? 8th place?

Do you ever want to see us win a cup?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-26-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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Old
10-26-2011, 11:33 AM
  #223
Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
Absolutly yes !! But I know they are too good to finish in the bottom 5. I want them to tank because in all honesty I don't care if they win or not the Stanley cup , all I want is a good entertaiment . A young superstar like yakupov is very exciting to watch .
What if you suck, end up getting 1st pick through great luck in winning the lottery but then he is a bust?

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Old
10-26-2011, 11:45 AM
  #224
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What if you suck, end up getting 1st pick through great luck in winning the lottery but then he is a bust?
Sure it could happen. Most of the time you'd get at least a serviceable player but there's an outside chance you wind up with a total bust...

It still doesn't matter man. We shouldn't only rely on whatever draft pick we get this year. We should do what we can to get good returns on our vets who won't lead us anywhere. Collectively it's not a good group but individually a lot of our players have trade value.

Then play the kids. Let them develop. We can keep a couple of vets like Gomez and Cole (who we can't trade anyway) and just give the kids icetime. If rise in the standings... great. If not, then we'll probably draft high next year. The picks and prospects that we trade for will help us develop. The picks that we land will help us develop. At some point you're going to find elite talent in there. Look at our only top five pick in 25 years... it just happens to be our best player. That is not a fluke. And our only rebuild move in recent memory resulted in us getting Josh Gorges and a pick that turned into MaxPac. Why not do more of this instead of deals where we give away prospects for vets?

And... we're already well ahead of where most rebuilding clubs are to begin with. We've actually got some young talent already.

The alternative is to try to trade for a superstar or sign him via free agency. I don't see how this happens. It's not impossible for it to happen but it's highly unlikely and over the past two decades we haven't shown any ability to do this.

So if we want elite talent, we should try to trade for prospects and get them before they are elite and rely on the draft. Our scouting is a great group and I believe if they actually had more to work with we'd do well.

The alternative is to keep doing what we've been doing for years and spin our wheels while going nowhere fast. It's one thing to be a bubble team but it's another issue altogether when you are a perpetual bubble team that repeatedly builds with tier 2 leftovers from other clubs. That's the cycle we're stuck in right now and if we want to be serious about building a winner we've got to start doing things differently.

And flip your entire premise around... What if instead of a bust we actually drafted a superstar?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-26-2011 at 11:56 AM.
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Old
10-26-2011, 11:45 AM
  #225
Miller Time
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two best parts of the article:


"Échanger quelques vétérans à compter de janvier pour profiter de quelques choix supplémentaires au repêchage si jamais l'équipe demeure parmi les pires clubs? Ça se défendrait."

"trading a couple of veteran players, starting in January, to profit from a few extra draft picks IF the team is still among the worst in league... that would be understandable (could be defended)".

bang on, and exactly what most of the so-called "tanking" advocates are actually arguing for.

and then...

"On retient surtout le fait qu'on a cédé de jeunes joueurs prometteurs comme Mike Ribeiro, Mikhail Grabovski, Sergei Kostitsyn, Guillaume Latendresse et Matt D'Agostini sans rien obtenir de valable en retour. Il y a aussi ce Ryan McDonagh qui est en train de s'imposer comme l'un des meilleurs défenseurs des Rangers de New York."

translates to:

"we remember for sure the FACT that the team gave up several young, promising players (like Ribs, Grabs, Lats, SKost and D'ago) without getting anything of value in return. Also that Mcdo is in the process of establishing himself as one of the best dmen on the Rangers"


followed by:

"On ne peut perdre autant de talent sans en subir les conséquences. À l'heure actuelle, il est permis de se demander quelle recette miraculeuse pourrait relancer cette équipe sans vie."

"we cant' lose so much talent without suffering consequences. At this point/right now, it's fair to ask ourselves what miracle fix could help put this team back on the right track (back to life)"


basically repeating what us so-called "bashers" have been saying about the current management group...

too many terrible asset management decisions over the past few seasons, mostly at the expense of young talent, which was then forcibly replaced by expensive UFA's (at the cost of even more young talent/picks).

How anyone can look at that track record and try to argue the team has been well managed of late is an amazing display of homerism if I ever saw one.

a team that has consistently had the flexibility to spend among the top teams in the league, shouldn't be considered a "success" for consistently managing mediocre results... yes floating around the playoff line, 6-10th in the conference, is mediocre ("of only moderate quality, not very good). 1 hot playoff run (coinciding with two players having H-O-F'er quality 1st/2nd rounds), and one great regular season (coinciding with a freakishly "lucky" avoidance of injury... which we've been seemingly paying for ever since as far as "luck" goes) don't erase or make up for consistently being a bubble playoff team every other year for a decade under one management group/philosophy.

Brunet is modest in his approach, and shows great restraint, but his comments, and the underlying point they address, seems pretty clear. Not good enough... time to start seriously facing that fact and looking for a reasonable solution.

"tanking" in a scorched earth sort of way is obviously not the solution, but neither is "staying the course"... a "course" which has led us to a roster where 5 of our top 6 paid players are clearly overpaid (or clearly underproducing given expectations/salary)

Gomez, Cammy, Gionta, Spacek, Cole... all below expectations.

only Pleks is delivering. (leaving markov out of that discussion even if real concerns exists for when/at what level he will return to the team at).

as much as it may be the players responsibility to step it up, when the balance sheet is that poor, the blame surely must lie on those who decided to put their faith in them in the first place.

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