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Old
10-26-2011, 11:20 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
He still can. He can't go back to the CHL but he CAN still be loaned to Team Canada for the Christmas World Junior tourament. I would be willing to be that he will be loaned to that team as it is good for his development.
I really don't think they would let him go. We're cap strapped, and that is precious dead cap space sitting on our roster. Couturier is a valuable, contributing member to this team. I'd be shocked if Laviolette let his second leading PK man just up and leave to go dominate a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds.

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10-26-2011, 05:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Here is my issue: Is Couturier going to give you more now, or when he's 21?

When he's 21. Meaning he would be that much more expensive to sign for the following RFA season when he turns 22. Since this is a player you presume the Flyers would want to keep long-term, I think that mitigates "burning" an ELC year. 19-20-21 Couturier should play at a higher level than 18-19-20 Couturier, and therefore will have a higher level of proven NHL performance on his resume to take into negotiations. Do the best thing for the present team and the player development, because the contract stuff cancels out.

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10-27-2011, 11:22 AM
  #53
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I really really hate this decision by the Flyers

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10-27-2011, 11:28 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
When he's 21. Meaning he would be that much more expensive to sign for the following RFA season when he turns 22. Since this is a player you presume the Flyers would want to keep long-term, I think that mitigates "burning" an ELC year. 19-20-21 Couturier should play at a higher level than 18-19-20 Couturier, and therefore will have a higher level of proven NHL performance on his resume to take into negotiations. Do the best thing for the present team and the player development, because the contract stuff cancels out.
Ok, well, his contract runs out at the same time as Giroux, Read, Meszaros, and Schenn, whereas not burning this year means his contract runs out at the same time as Danny Briere. It's pretty clear which way would be most easily managed.


Plus the Flyers at some point will make a trade for a bottom-six forward, everyone here knows it will happen. The Flyers just have too many 2nd round picks in the coming years for Holmgren to not burn them.

Not only is it the right decision to send Couturier back, it's a pretty easy one. Unless he's going to play 15-16 minutes a night like Patrice Bergeron did at 18.

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10-27-2011, 11:30 AM
  #55
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At this point I just assume any contract decision made by the Flyers is the wrong one. It's the safest bet.

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10-27-2011, 11:35 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Ok, well, his contract runs out at the same time as Giroux, Read, Meszaros, and Schenn, whereas not burning this year means his contract runs out at the same time as Danny Briere. It's pretty clear which way would be most easily managed.


Plus the Flyers at some point will make a trade for a bottom-six forward, everyone here knows it will happen. The Flyers just have too many 2nd round picks in the coming years for Holmgren to not burn them.

Not only is it the right decision to send Couturier back, it's a pretty easy one. Unless he's going to play 15-16 minutes a night like Patrice Bergeron did at 18.

And if his ELC runs out the year after Giroux, Read, Meszaros, and Schenn when Couturier is possibly due an even larger cap hit to re-sign for the 2015 season than he would be for the 2014 season, does that really help matters any long-term?

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10-27-2011, 11:38 AM
  #57
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so if Schenn is indeed hurt why would we send Couturier back to junior.
Even with Schenn not being hurt recalling Rinaldo and sending Couturier back to Drummondville is an assinine decision. but then again its Holmgrens call. so I am not expecting a smart decision.


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Old
10-27-2011, 11:39 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
so if Schenn is indeed hurt why would we send Couturier back to junior.
Even with Schenn not being hurt recalling Rinaldo and sending Couturier back to Drummondville is an assinine decision. but then again its Holmgens call. so I am not expecting a smart decision.
Holmstrom should have been called up, but I don't think this decision should be dependent on Schenn, unless it's serious and he's going to miss a long time.

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10-27-2011, 12:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Holmstrom should have been called up, but I don't think this decision should be dependent on Schenn, unless it's serious and he's going to miss a long time.
he should of been. I agree. hopefully Gus shows enough that Walker is sent to the AHL for good. I dont think he needs to clear waivers again.

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10-27-2011, 12:10 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Ok, well, his contract runs out at the same time as Giroux, Read, Meszaros, and Schenn, whereas not burning this year means his contract runs out at the same time as Danny Briere. It's pretty clear which way would be most easily managed.


Plus the Flyers at some point will make a trade for a bottom-six forward, everyone here knows it will happen. The Flyers just have too many 2nd round picks in the coming years for Holmgren to not burn them.

Not only is it the right decision to send Couturier back, it's a pretty easy one. Unless he's going to play 15-16 minutes a night like Patrice Bergeron did at 18.
This post encompasses HF boards FAIL.

Looking ahead is important, but the loss of a year of ELC is SOOOOO small in comparison to a year with NHL caliber trainers/nutrition/traveling/teammates/coaches.

its the difference of a 500k-1mil cap hit change, but it could effect the player's entire development!

Lavvy is good with using young guys, and recognizes cooter isn't physically fit enough to play big minutes. Its a LOOONG season though, so lavvy knows 4th line minutes with a lot of PK time is great for an 18 year old who isnt physically ready for a full season.

Cooter has a lot more confidence in his play now that he's solidified the 4th line/PK. Confidence = growth

I'd rather have cooter be all he can be than worry about 500k in 3 years...We won't have any trouble signing him long term to a fair contract down the road.
(looks like lavvy/homer also want cooter to develop more than they want to save Snider a few bucks)

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10-27-2011, 12:47 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
I'd rather have cooter be all he can be than worry about 500k in 3 years...We won't have any trouble signing him long term to a fair contract down the road.
(looks like lavvy/homer also want cooter to develop more than they want to save Snider a few bucks)
A "fair" contract like the one JVR just got? You know the one where he was paid market value for an established scorer...

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10-27-2011, 01:00 PM
  #62
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Now that we know had badly hurt Schenn is, my hope is that Couturier will not only play top-9 minutes but will establish himself so that someone else gets stuck on the 4th line once everyone is healthy.

It sucks to have 10 top-9 forwards in general, but I think that Couturier has the most long-term development potential of any player on the team other than Giroux. Someone else should languish on the 4th line.

(And yes, I may be giving an 18-year old too much credit.)

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10-27-2011, 01:16 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
Now that we know had badly hurt Schenn is, my hope is that Couturier will not only play top-9 minutes but will establish himself so that someone else gets stuck on the 4th line once everyone is healthy.

It sucks to have 10 top-9 forwards in general, but I think that Couturier has the most long-term development potential of any player on the team other than Giroux. Someone else should languish on the 4th line.

(And yes, I may be giving an 18-year old too much credit.)
I don't see that as a problem really.

Couturier has been great playing on the fourth line and 1st pk. I fail to see how doing so for a season will ruin his development. If he goes out and shows that he's definitely too good offensively to play with Talbot and Nödl/Shelley/Rinaldo in the next couple of weeks, say by starting off with a hattrick against Winnipeg to show them that they shouldn't have gone with Scheifele, then I'll be ok with that of course. If that happens, there are chances that another injury has occured, or maybe Read has slowed down, or maybe it would be good for Schenn to start out with limited minutes once he returns, or...

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10-27-2011, 01:59 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
This post encompasses HF boards FAIL.

Looking ahead is important, but the loss of a year of ELC is SOOOOO small in comparison to a year with NHL caliber trainers/nutrition/traveling/teammates/coaches.

its the difference of a 500k-1mil cap hit change, but it could effect the player's entire development!

Lavvy is good with using young guys, and recognizes cooter isn't physically fit enough to play big minutes. Its a LOOONG season though, so lavvy knows 4th line minutes with a lot of PK time is great for an 18 year old who isnt physically ready for a full season.

Cooter has a lot more confidence in his play now that he's solidified the 4th line/PK. Confidence = growth

I'd rather have cooter be all he can be than worry about 500k in 3 years...We won't have any trouble signing him long term to a fair contract down the road.
(looks like lavvy/homer also want cooter to develop more than they want to save Snider a few bucks)
You are absolutely correct. At least your first sentence is.

In a salary cap world, paying attention to which contracts are expiring, and staggering them to keep them in line with the cap is not only intelligent, it's imperative.

Just how many of Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Read, Meszaros are going to be able to stay in Philly if they all need raises at exactly the same time? Especially where most of them are coming off entry level or low cap hit deals.

Whether it's right or wrong for Couturier remains to be seen. I'm not a fan of most 18 year olds staying up while only getting 4th line minutes, but so far he's not been limited to 6 or 7 minutes a night.

PS - Couturier (or any other young player) would have rocks in his head to give the Flyers a hometown discount.

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10-27-2011, 09:09 PM
  #65
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Habs fan coming in peace. You guys have a real gem with this guy. I had a feeling he'd stay up and play well for your team. With an injury he'll probably get more ice time. He's going to be a solid two-way player you guys should be thrilled.

I ended up taking him in my pool as sort of a wild card. Hopefully all goes well! Good luck next game!

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10-27-2011, 09:21 PM
  #66
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Wrote this in the GDT but it got burried.

Quick look at the box score suggests Talbot had more ES time than Couturier tonight. Was Talbot out there with Read and Voracek at any point? I don't remember seeing the combination, but I'm at a loss to explain it.

He had barely a minute more ES ice time than Rinaldo. WTF.

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10-27-2011, 09:35 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Wrote this in the GDT but it got burried.

Quick look at the box score suggests Talbot had more ES time than Couturier tonight. Was Talbot out there with Read and Voracek at any point? I don't remember seeing the combination, but I'm at a loss to explain it.

He had barely a minute more ES ice time than Rinaldo. WTF.
Unless there's some injury we don't know about yet, maybe the run-and-gun play of tonight simply doesn't suit him well. Talbot was pretty active out there as well, he might have been rewarded.

I don't think Couturier was making a fool out of himself in any way though.

If only he could somehow get four or five years worth of faceoff training and experience before the next game though... I don't know his stats tonight, but they can't have been pretty.

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10-27-2011, 09:36 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Wrote this in the GDT but it got burried.

Quick look at the box score suggests Talbot had more ES time than Couturier tonight. Was Talbot out there with Read and Voracek at any point? I don't remember seeing the combination, but I'm at a loss to explain it.

He had barely a minute more ES ice time than Rinaldo. WTF.
Talbot saw time in the third with Briere + Simmonds and also Read + Voracek. Couturier was benched for the final 10 minutes of the third. Tonight's game was proof enough that the Flyers made the wrong decision. Laviolette doesn't play him even with Schenn out. If the Flyers ever stop taking so many penalties his minutes will decrease.

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10-27-2011, 09:39 PM
  #69
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Talbot saw time in the third with Briere + Simmonds and also Read + Voracek. Couturier was benched for the final 10 minutes of the third. Tonight's game was proof enough that the Flyers made the wrong decision. Laviolette doesn't play him even with Schenn out. If the Flyers ever stop taking so many penalties his minutes will decrease.

No it isn't... I'm not sure how could possibly jump to that kind of conclusion based on so little evidence, so early in the season.

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10-27-2011, 09:44 PM
  #70
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No it isn't... I'm not sure how could possibly jump to that kind of conclusion based on so little evidence, so early in the season.
He barely plays the kid. It's a waste of the first year of his ELC to utilize him as a fourth line penalty killer. Delaying his contract by a year would have provided them with a bigger payoff in the end.

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10-27-2011, 09:59 PM
  #71
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He barely plays the kid. It's a waste of the first year of his ELC to utilize him as a fourth line penalty killer. Delaying his contract by a year would have provided them with a bigger payoff in the end.

Is 13:00 a night not enough for a 18 y/o rookie on a team with deep forward group?

What would Couturier be getting by dominating in Junior that he is not getting here and that would result in a "bigger payoff"?

I don't see any evidence whatsoever that keeping Couturier up is hurting Couturier in the long run or hurting the team at present.

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10-27-2011, 10:23 PM
  #72
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Is 13:00 a night not enough for a 18 y/o rookie on a team with deep forward group?

What would Couturier be getting by dominating in Junior that he is not getting here and that would result in a "bigger payoff"?

I don't see any evidence whatsoever that keeping Couturier up is hurting Couturier in the long run or hurting the team at present.
The greater payoff I am referring to about would have been to have him on his ELC when he was 19-20-21. The cap savings would be even greater because he would be a better player playing a bigger role. His contract also wouldn't be up when Giroux, Schenn, Meszaros, and Read need to be re-signed.

Couturier averages over 4 minutes of PK time. If the Flyers learn to stay out of the box his ice time is going to decrease even further because he isn't getting enough even strength minutes.

I was all for him making this team, but that is before I saw Laviolette mishandling him. He has an offensive game and shouldn't be relegated to 4th line PK duty only. He could benefit more from playing 20 mins a night in all situations in juniors which would have also benefited the Flyers long term cap situation.

What is the payoff in giving him 4th line minutes?

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10-27-2011, 10:33 PM
  #73
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The greater payoff I am referring to about would have been to have him on his ELC when he was 19-20-21. The cap savings would be even greater because he would be a better player playing a bigger role. His contract also wouldn't be up when Giroux, Schenn, Meszaros, and Read need to be re-signed.

Couturier averages over 4 minutes of PK time. If the Flyers learn to stay out of the box his ice time is going to decrease even further because he isn't getting enough even strength minutes.

I was all for him making this team, but that is before I saw Laviolette mishandling him. He has an offensive game and shouldn't be relegated to 4th line PK duty only. He could benefit more from playing 20 mins a night in all situations in juniors which would have also benefited the Flyers long term cap situation.

What is the payoff in giving him 4th line minutes?
If we stop taking so many stupid penalties, more even strength time opens up. A fourth line of Nödl-Couturier-Talbot would probably be used like the Carcillo-Betts-Lappy line was two years ago.

He has the opportunity now with Schenn out injured to play himself into the top 9, and even if he won't, there will always be new injuries to get him some more playing time from time to time. Time.

There are plenty of players who've begun their careers playing 11-13 minutes or so in their first season.

The other argument you have has more merit, imo. One of the jobs Homer has is to weigh in what's good for the Flyers today towards what would be good for us tomorrow (or, in this case, a few years from now). Having Couturier's contract expire when Brière's is up might have been preferrable (I think that is what would have been the case if we'd given Couturier one more year in jrs at least... too tired to look it up atm).

Still, with the way Couturier has played so far, I'm happy to have him on the roster. We can only hope he can keep it up for the entire season.

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10-27-2011, 10:48 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The greater payoff I am referring to about would have been to have him on his ELC when he was 19-20-21. The cap savings would be even greater because he would be a better player playing a bigger role. His contract also wouldn't be up when Giroux, Schenn, Meszaros, and Read need to be re-signed.

And getting a bigger contract for the following RFA seasons. I already addressed that point just a few posts ago. I don't believe keeping him down favors the Flyers payroll structure the way you envision.

Let's just assume that keeping him up makes no impact on his development one way or the other:

Path A:

18 - 80 GP, 15 G, 20 A, 35 P
19 - 80 GP, 20 G, 30 A, 50 P
20 - 80 GP, 25 G, 35 A, 60 P

Career: 240 GP, 60 G, 85 A, 145 P

Path B:

19 - 80 GP, 20 G, 30 A, 50 P
20 - 80 GP, 25 G, 35 A, 60 P
21 - 80 GP, 30 G, 45 A, 75 P

Career: 240 GP, 75 G, 110 A, 185 P

Who is in line for the bigger pay-day? Path B. That's expected the trade-off for pushing off his ELC by a year -- getting hooked for a bigger cap hit after you have to deal with Giroux, Schenn, Meszaros, and Read. Is this alternative really any better? Unless the Flyers plan to dispense of Couturier after 3 years, there's no kick-back. In the long run you have to pay for what you're getting.

So for me, that makes it a purely hockey decision. Has Couturier shown he belongs in the NHL? Yes. Is Couturier showing that he can help the team? Yes. Is there any evidence that keeping Couturier with the team is hurting his potential? No.

Sure, he'd be getting more ice time in Juniors, but who is to say that makes up for the NHL experience, coaching, training and maturity that is coming to him right now? In this case, I defer to professional judgement.

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10-27-2011, 11:03 PM
  #75
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And getting a bigger contract for the following RFA seasons. I already addressed that point just a few posts ago. I don't believe keeping him down favors the Flyers payroll structure the way you envision.

Let's just assume that keeping him up makes no impact on his development one way or the other:

Path A:

18 - 80 GP, 15 G, 20 A, 35 P
19 - 80 GP, 20 G, 30 A, 50 P
20 - 80 GP, 25 G, 35 A, 60 P

Career: 240 GP, 60 G, 85 A, 145 P

Path B:

19 - 80 GP, 20 G, 30 A, 50 P
20 - 80 GP, 25 G, 35 A, 60 P
21 - 80 GP, 30 G, 45 A, 75 P

Career: 240 GP, 75 G, 110 A, 185 P

Who is in line for the bigger pay-day? Path B. That's expected the trade-off for pushing off his ELC by a year -- getting hooked for a bigger cap hit after you have to deal with Giroux, Schenn, Meszaros, and Read. Is this alternative really any better? Unless the Flyers plan to dispense of Couturier after 3 years, there's no kick-back. In the long run you have to pay for what you're getting.

So for me, that makes it a purely hockey decision. Has Couturier shown he belongs in the NHL? Yes. Is Couturier showing that he can help the team? Yes. Is there any evidence that keeping Couturier with the team is hurting his potential? No.

Sure, he'd be getting more ice time in Juniors, but who is to say that makes up for the NHL experience, coaching, training and maturity that is coming to him right now? In this case, I defer to professional judgement.
I think Plan B is absolutely the better alternative because they would be getting far more value out of his ELC which is important under the cap. Would you rather have a 50 point player making nearly $1.4M or a 4th liner that sees no PP time and might be lucky to hit 30 points?

The other crucial piece of information is that had they delayed his contract a year he would be restricted the year Briere's contract finally comes off the books. So there would be a huge chunk of breathing room in that scenario even if he costs a bit more. The higher cost down the road would be justified.

Besides there is no guarantee there would be a huge difference in salary if he was signed at 21 rather than 20. As we see with contracts like the one handed out to JVR, players sometimes end up being paid on potential. At least Couturier could be more proven at 21 and more deserving of a bump in pay.

Sorry, but when it comes to anything involving the cap I would look to the opposite of any decision Holmgren makes.

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