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Old
10-27-2011, 09:46 PM
  #1
DeflatedFootball7
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What happened to this team?

Last year everyone said our defense was the best.

Pronger-Carle
Coburn-Timmonen
Meszaros-O'Donnel


Pronger-Carle
Coburn-Timmonen
Meszaros-Lilja

I only notice one change and yet were 10 X worse. Carle went from being a steady offensive defensman to a physically intimidated turnover machine. Coburn was great last year but he just looks lost or awful every damn game. These two are in contract years and yet there playing awful. Words can not describe how angry I have been at Meszaros though. Guy has gone right back to his Tampa Bay form. Seriously supposed to be a good anchor for the defense when Prongs and Kimmo retire and yet he's just gone back to being a glorified overpaid 3rd paring defenseman. Lilja has been bad as many predicted but his play is well...expected. But the rest? Just atrocious. Oh yeah and then there is Walker. lol.

The forwards have also been bad. JVR is supposed to make up for the lost offense but he just looks like a brick slowly skating along occasionally managing to use his "hardest shot on the team" to shoot into the goalies chest. And to my great surprise Giroux has left his hot start somewhere around Albuquerque. He's playing probably the worst hockey he's ever played since he joined the organization. Briere is starting to pick it up, same goes for Jagr and Hartnell. On the other hand Voracek is infuriating. Does he ever shoot the puck? Or does he just skate around in circles for hours on end. He looks like the forward version of Kaberle out there. Talbot and Couturier have both been fine. Glad Couts is staying personally. Shelley has actually been okay playing with the two. And Rinaldo is not really all that noticeable so whatever. Nodl is awful as expected.

It's good to see Bryzgalov and Bobrovsky taking the blame Bryz especially. But seriously could the two of them be any worse? Bryz looks like he doesn't give a damn half the time and Bob just looks like he's in playoff form all over again.

I'm just not sure anymore. How has "the best defense in the nhl", "the forward core with the best depth" and "quite possibly one of the best if not THE best goalie tandems in the NHL" gotten this bad. It's upsetting. I hope we can turn it around soon. It's tough trying to stay positive.

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Old
10-27-2011, 09:51 PM
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WeekendAtBernies
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Amen to your Giroux comment!!!

I hate it when my #1 center is on pace for 90 points and 49 goals.

It seriously makes me angry.

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10-27-2011, 09:53 PM
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Look, Defense is played by everyone on the ice not just the pairing at the time. We lost our 2 best defenseive forwards and lost 2 other very good ones as well. This was a big question mark coming into the season and now we are seeing what we need to improve on

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10-27-2011, 09:54 PM
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DeflatedFootball7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Amen to your Giroux comment!!!

I hate it when my #1 center is on pace for 90 points and 49 goals.

It seriously makes me angry.
You know what I hate? When you point out Giroux isn't playing 110% this fanbase starts a riot. It seriously ticks me off. Because he looked like he could barely skate tonight. Although to his credit, so did most of the team.

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10-27-2011, 09:54 PM
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Pronger is a huge difference maker in case you didn't notice. The Flyers weren't the same team last when either when he was out. You also have a young, inexperienced team that underwent a makeover this offseason. They need time to gel.

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10-27-2011, 09:56 PM
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What happened to this team?
Nothing. This is what they are.

For the foreseeable future, don't expect any consistency from night to night.

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10-27-2011, 09:57 PM
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We let that best forward depth walk, or traded it away. There are a lot of rookies on this team, and on top of that they still need to gel.

As for defense, the pairings can only do so much. They need support from the forwards. However, the defensive skill of our forwards went out the door. There was a noticeable difference last year without Gagne and Lappy, and this year there's a much bigger difference without Richards, Carter, Powe, Leino, Betts. Nobody has really replaced them yet. All we can do is hope the new guys learn quickly.

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Old
10-27-2011, 10:00 PM
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Well it hasn't been pretty the last 4 games in particular..what happened to this team is a lot of turnover and now with adversity they have to form a new identity. With Pronger being out it makes it that much more difficult. We need somebody to grab the bull by the horns and come out with an extraordinary effort. We need more heroes vs goats....need our best players to play like our best players

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10-27-2011, 10:03 PM
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decadentia
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I heard there were a few trades of minor importance over the summer...might have something to do with it, unsure.

This is what I expected personally.

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10-27-2011, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Look, Defense is played by everyone on the ice not just the pairing at the time. We lost our 2 best defenseive forwards and lost 2 other very good ones as well. This was a big question mark coming into the season and now we are seeing what we need to improve on
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Originally Posted by Readyrock View Post
Nothing. This is what they are.

For the foreseeable future, don't expect any consistency from night to night.
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
I heard there were a few trades of minor importance over the summer...might have something to do with it, unsure.

This is what I expected personally.
I agree with these. Well, I didn't expect 8-9 losses, but I'm fully prepared for a season or two with inconsistency from a team filled with youngsters (and a 39-year-old still getting his feeling back).

The past two off seasons we've lost Gagné, Lappy, Richards, Carter, Powe and Betts from our forward core. Voracek, Simmonds, Jagr, Couturier, Read and Schenn isn't on the same level defensively to be honest.

Couturier has started out great, Read is better than I expected, Jagr is backchecking more now than he did when he was 22, but it still doesn't cover it. And we knew this coming into the season. As much as we're ******** on our defense lately, it's not always easy for them when the opposing forwards are allowed to skate almost unhindered through the neutral zone, and when our top 9 centers are Giroux/Brière/Read our dmen ain't gonna get the best help down low in our own zone.

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10-27-2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decadentia View Post

This is what I expected personally.
This is it--right? If you looked at our schedule at the start of the year, with the amount of changes that the team had--and said after 10 games you would be 5-4-1. I think most of us would have taken it. That fast start against Boston and Vancouver inflated expectations beyond what was reasonable, I think.

On the other hand, there really is no excuse for the kinds of performances that have been turned in over the last week or so. Losing is one thing--being out of sync is one thing--playing completely uninspired for large portions of games--that's what's so concerning.

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10-27-2011, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I agree with these. Well, I didn't expect 8-9 losses, but I'm fully prepared for a season or two with inconsistency from a team filled with youngsters (and a 39-year-old still getting his feeling back).

The past two off seasons we've lost Gagné, Lappy, Richards, Carter, Powe and Betts from our forward core. Voracek, Simmonds, Jagr, Couturier, Read and Schenn isn't on the same level defensively to be honest.

Couturier has started out great, Read is better than I expected, Jagr is backchecking more now than he did when he was 22, but it still doesn't cover it. And we knew this coming into the season. As much as we're ******** on our defense lately, it's not always easy for them when the opposing forwards are allowed to skate almost unhindered through the neutral zone, and when our top 9 centers are Giroux/Brière/Read our dmen ain't gonna get the best help down low in our own zone.
I would agree with you here, but it's not the point shots that are killing this team. It's the guys down low, the guys in front of the net (the guys the defensemen are responsible for) that are killing this team.

Some of the goals you can put on the forwards, for sure. But the majority of the goals scored on us were either:

a. The result of a terrible pass and subsequent turnover by one of our defensemen

or

b. The result of our defensemen leaving their counterparts wide open in front of the net to pot an easy rebound or create a screen for a shot to whiz by, or to deflect a shot.

While you can put some of the goals on the new young forwards not being defensively responsible, most of the blame falls on the defense. Lilja and Walker have both been terrible... far worse than our #5 and #6 were last year. Meszaros looks awful too. Carle and Coburn are also playing much, much worse than they did last year, and Carle without Pronger has gotten even worse. The only reliable defensemen we've had this year are Pronger and Timonen, and that's a problem. Defense was supposed to be a strength. Instead, it's been our biggest weakness IMO.

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10-27-2011, 10:43 PM
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Anyone still believe Richards and Carter were overrated defensively?

Our forwards have a lot of growing to do in their own end. Giroux is solid, but not all-world. Briere is a straight up liability. Coutuirer is still learning, and Talbot gets limited minutes. It's hardly the down-the-middle defensive unit we've had since 2007-08. Another thing is that without Pronger, Carle is helpless. It doesn't help that Meszaros and Coburn haven't been playing great. Timonen can't do it alone.

Couple that with bad bounces as well as a team that just changed roughly half of its lineup and you have the catastrophe that is known as the early 2011-12 Flyers.

It will correct itself in time.

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10-27-2011, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
This is it--right? If you looked at our schedule at the start of the year, with the amount of changes that the team had--and said after 10 games you would be 5-4-1. I think most of us would have taken it. That fast start against Boston and Vancouver inflated expectations beyond what was reasonable, I think.

On the other hand, there really is no excuse for the kinds of performances that have been turned in over the last week or so. Losing is one thing--being out of sync is one thing--playing completely uninspired for large portions of games--that's what's so concerning.
Agreed, it's not the record that is concerning, it's games like tonight.

Expected them to lose at Montreal, although thought it would be close. However, after a loss, to lose a home a game in this fashion is really worrisome.

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10-27-2011, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Anyone still believe Richards and Carter were overrated defensively?

Our forwards have a lot of growing to do in their own end. Giroux is solid, but not all-world. Briere is a straight up liability. Coutuirer is still learning, and Talbot gets limited minutes. It's hardly the down-the-middle defensive unit we've had since 2007-08. Another thing is that without Pronger, Carle is helpless. It doesn't help that Meszaros and Coburn haven't been playing great. Timonen can't do it alone.

Couple that with bad bounces as well as a team that just changed roughly half of its lineup and you have the catastrophe that is known as the early 2011-12 Flyers.

It will correct itself in time.
Bad bounces don't happen as much when you are controlling the play (puck possession, established forecheck, faceoff wins etc). Last four games we've been exposed worse than a veteran porn star in all facets of the game. The worst is that when they don't have the puck they have no effin clue what to do with themselves. The lack of positioning etc clearly shows it. They all of the sudden since the first 3 or 4 games have gone brain dead with respect to how to play the game without the puck. This was the same malaise we saw in the second half last year..just worse b/c people haven't stepped into their new roles fully or may just not be capable just yet. May be a tough climb especially without Pronger. The ship is pretty listless right now to say the least..

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10-27-2011, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
This is it--right? If you looked at our schedule at the start of the year, with the amount of changes that the team had--and said after 10 games you would be 5-4-1. I think most of us would have taken it. That fast start against Boston and Vancouver inflated expectations beyond what was reasonable, I think.

On the other hand, there really is no excuse for the kinds of performances that have been turned in over the last week or so. Losing is one thing--being out of sync is one thing--playing completely uninspired for large portions of games--that's what's so concerning.
It's the headless chicken impression we're doing that is of concern to me. I expected inconsistency, but not quite at this level. This game was just silly. Outside of Timonen and Coburn (until that last shift) no one on our team looked like they'd been coached after they turned 14yo.

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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
I would agree with you here, but it's not the point shots that are killing this team. It's the guys down low, the guys in front of the net (the guys the defensemen are responsible for) that are killing this team.

Some of the goals you can put on the forwards, for sure. But the majority of the goals scored on us were either:

a. The result of a terrible pass and subsequent turnover by one of our defensemen

or

b. The result of our defensemen leaving their counterparts wide open in front of the net to pot an easy rebound or create a screen for a shot to whiz by, or to deflect a shot.

While you can put some of the goals on the new young forwards not being defensively responsible, most of the blame falls on the defense. Lilja and Walker have both been terrible... far worse than our #5 and #6 were last year. Meszaros looks awful too. Carle and Coburn are also playing much, much worse than they did last year, and Carle without Pronger has gotten even worse. The only reliable defensemen we've had this year are Pronger and Timonen, and that's a problem. Defense was supposed to be a strength. Instead, it's been our biggest weakness IMO.
Our d's haven't exactly excelled. I was a fairly vocal opponent against the Lilja signing over the summer, we know that Walker isn't the greatest player in the league. It's too bad that Gustafsson and/or Bartulis didn't step up and claim the last spot in camp. Maybe Gustafsson will take this chance though. I hope he'll continue up with the big team while Pronger is out. Hopefully he shows enough to stay on even after Pronger returns.

It would be nice if one of Coburn/Meszaros/Carle really stepped up and showed that they can be leaders on this team, we've been waiting for that for a while now (especially with Coburn). I think Coburn has opened the season fairly well, not great by any means, but solid. Meszaros is still wildly inconsistent (and not just from game to game, but really from shift to shift, it's almost remarkable). Carle has had the worst start of the three imo. The past two games he's been horrible.

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10-27-2011, 11:13 PM
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This is what happens when you get rid of your 2 proven forwards who are actually capable of playing at both ends of the rink. Add Gagne into that mix and I think you have an answer.

Throw in Mez, Carle and Coburn who each need a strong partner, Kimmo, who got 4 points tonight but has looked uncharacteristically bad at times this season, a hobbled Pronger and I'm not going to mention the other 2 who are making people long for Randy Jones to be back on the team instead of them and I think you've got an answer.

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10-28-2011, 12:02 AM
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This is what happens when you get rid of your 2 proven forwards who are actually capable of playing at both ends of the rink. Add Gagne into that mix and I think you have an answer.

Throw in Mez, Carle and Coburn who each need a strong partner, Kimmo, who got 4 points tonight but has looked uncharacteristically bad at times this season, a hobbled Pronger and I'm not going to mention the other 2 who are making people long for Randy Jones to be back on the team instead of them and I think you've got an answer.
Randy Jones outscored them both tonight. It's unfair to insult him like that.


How the hell did we beat Boston, SHO NJ, and old off Vancouver?

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10-28-2011, 12:17 AM
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We have good D's on this team. Its just the system has them constantly moving everywhere and I am sure they get tired and start making mistakes. As I said before, I will be surprised to see Kimmo make it all season again.

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10-28-2011, 12:20 AM
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Bad D partners don't help at all. Timonen-Coburn I still think was one of our better combos. When Pronger is healthy, Carle and him make a good pair. When Mez is put with someone solid, then it's good.

I honestly think we should waive Shelley, Walker at least and sign McCabe to a really low contract price to be with Mez.

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10-28-2011, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Anyone still believe Richards and Carter were overrated defensively?

Our forwards have a lot of growing to do in their own end. Giroux is solid, but not all-world. Briere is a straight up liability. Coutuirer is still learning, and Talbot gets limited minutes. It's hardly the down-the-middle defensive unit we've had since 2007-08. Another thing is that without Pronger, Carle is helpless. It doesn't help that Meszaros and Coburn haven't been playing great. Timonen can't do it alone.

Couple that with bad bounces as well as a team that just changed roughly half of its lineup and you have the catastrophe that is known as the early 2011-12 Flyers.

It will correct itself in time.

That's one narrative -- that poor defensive play shows how badly we are missing Richards and Carter down the middle. But when he analyze the specific lapses one by one as they took place, I don't think it points in that direction. They have given up 15 goals on 53 shots in the last two games.

It's too late at night for me to break down every goal, but what stands out to me has been own-zone turnovers, mostly by d-men who have failed to make strong clearing plays, and a complete lack of crease-control leading to out-numbered situations down low and deflections of all kinds. The fact that the Flyers also managed to rattle off 70 shots in the back-to-back does not indicated that they got "puck-possessed" to death by the opposition. I see opportunistic opponents jumping all over weak play by the Flyers, particularly their blue-liners, in their own zone.

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Old
10-28-2011, 01:40 AM
  #22
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I attended that debacle tonight...

...yeah, I got nothing.

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10-28-2011, 01:59 AM
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give it time.

adversity is good. they'll come out of it as a team and they'll come out of it better.

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10-28-2011, 02:19 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Anyone still believe Richards and Carter were overrated defensively?

Our forwards have a lot of growing to do in their own end. Giroux is solid, but not all-world. Briere is a straight up liability. Coutuirer is still learning, and Talbot gets limited minutes. It's hardly the down-the-middle defensive unit we've had since 2007-08. Another thing is that without Pronger, Carle is helpless. It doesn't help that Meszaros and Coburn haven't been playing great. Timonen can't do it alone.

Couple that with bad bounces as well as a team that just changed roughly half of its lineup and you have the catastrophe that is known as the early 2011-12 Flyers.

It will correct itself in time.
Richards was a finalist for the Selke. Carter was pretty good defensively too. overrated? hardly. Those 2 players are MILES better defensively then any of our top end forwards now.
I think back to the Carter and Richards hate, and think were they ever as bad overall as what we are witnessing with Voracek and JVR(before tonight) If Carter was lazy I really hate what the word used to describe Voracek who is REALLY starting to piss me off. JVR better pull his head out of his ass well.
I realize this group is off chemistry wise, but the last 2 games defensively have been inexcusable. new year and the goaltending still sucks.

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10-28-2011, 02:25 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Richards was a finalist for the Selke. Carter was pretty good defensively too. overrated? hardly. Those 2 players are MILES better defensively then any of our top end forwards now.
I think back to the Carter and Richards hate, and think were they ever as bad overall as what we are witnessing with Voracek and JVR(before tonight) If Carter was lazy I really hate what the word used to describe Voracek who is REALLY starting to piss me off. JVR better pull his head out of his ass well.
I realize this group is off chemistry wise, but the last 2 games defensively have been inexcusable. new year and the goaltending still sucks.
That's the point.

There were bound to be bumps in the road.

As for the second bolded part, our veteran defense seems to be having significant communication problems with our new forwards. I'm not worried yet.

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