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All Purpose Proposals Mashup Pt. II

View Poll Results: would you sign morrison
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Old
10-28-2011, 12:31 PM
  #251
Karl Hungus
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
Since when is Weber a superstar? He's a great defenseman, but you don't sell tickets with great defensive play. I think he's highly overrated in this forum. That said, Nashville would not take a trade package consisting of our unwanted table scraps for Weber either.
The return for players like that never looks as good as HF Boards thinks it's going to be. The return is going to be closer to what Kovalchuck got than what Lindros brought back.

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10-28-2011, 12:34 PM
  #252
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Dude Edler's going to get a ******** of money.
He'll probably get in the $5.6-$6.2m range for a long term deal, less on a retirement deal a la Ehrhoff. Likely still much less than Weber will draw.

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10-28-2011, 12:40 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
Since when is Weber a superstar? He's a great defenseman, but you don't sell tickets with great defensive play. I think he's highly overrated in this forum. That said, Nashville would not take a trade package consisting of our unwanted table scraps for Weber either.
Uh, since when are the Canucks worried about selling tickets? Weber is a huge, 15 goal 50-ish point defenseman on a team with limited offense. On the Canucks PP he either opens up the Sedins for a ludicrous amount of points or scores 20+ goals because he gets open shooting lanes. He would be ridiculous on this team.

I'd prefer to keep Edler and hope he develops, but Weber is unquestionably a superstar. Not only is he a good offensive player, but he's already one of the best defensive defensemen in the game, he was good enough to play defense for Team Canada, and he's only one year older than Alex Edler. The guy is an absolute stud. If it took trading Edler to get him, I think I'd do it.

Otherwise I'd trade a lot of assets for him. He's that good. He'd play 27 minutes a night, kill penalties, QB the PP, hit, fight, and do pretty much anything else you could want a #1 defenseman to do. He's like a young Chris Pronger without the giant ********* factor.

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10-28-2011, 12:48 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Uh, since when are the Canucks worried about selling tickets? Weber is a huge, 15 goal 50-ish point defenseman on a team with limited offense. On the Canucks PP he either opens up the Sedins for a ludicrous amount of points or scores 20+ goals because he gets open shooting lanes. He would be ridiculous on this team.

I'd prefer to keep Edler and hope he develops, but Weber is unquestionably a superstar. Not only is he a good offensive player, but he's already one of the best defensive defensemen in the game, he was good enough to play defense for Team Canada, and he's only one year older than Alex Edler. The guy is an absolute stud. If it took trading Edler to get him, I think I'd do it.

Otherwise I'd trade a lot of assets for him. He's that good. He'd play 27 minutes a night, kill penalties, QB the PP, hit, fight, and do pretty much anything else you could want a #1 defenseman to do. He's like a young Chris Pronger without the giant ********* factor.
I'm a big fan of Weber but I do think his defensive game gets overrated a bit. I think he's a better version of Bieksa. An offensive defenseman that has a physical edge to his game. More offensive, more physical and less prone to mistakes but not really a cerebral defender like Pronger. I think Ryan Suter is the better player in his own zone. He can log huge minutes while skating miles. He's a tremendous passer which makes him the preferred player to start the breakout over Weber on their pairing. That being said, either defenseman would be the best blueliner on the Canucks.

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10-28-2011, 12:51 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Uh, since when are the Canucks worried about selling tickets? Weber is a huge, 15 goal 50-ish point defenseman on a team with limited offense. On the Canucks PP he either opens up the Sedins for a ludicrous amount of points or scores 20+ goals because he gets open shooting lanes. He would be ridiculous on this team.
Superstars are players who sell tickets/merchandise/TV ratings. They're goal scorers, usually, because that's what people pay to see.

Google search results for "Shea weber superstar" : 631,000
Google search results for "Jonathan toews superstar" : 1,110,000
Google search results for "Alex ovechkin superstar" : 2,260,000
Google search results for "Sidney crosby superstar" : 7,790,000

That's the difference between great players superstars. And that's also why we'd get him cheaper than you think.

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10-28-2011, 12:54 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
Superstars are players who sell tickets/merchandise/TV ratings. They're goal scorers, usually, because that's what people pay to see.

Google search results for "Shea weber superstar" : 631,000
Google search results for "Jonathan toews superstar" : 1,110,000
Google search results for "Alex ovechkin superstar" : 2,260,000
Google search results for "Sidney crosby superstar" : 7,790,000

That's the difference between great players superstars. And that's also why we'd get him cheaper than you think.
And BOOM goes the dynamite! /thread

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10-28-2011, 12:58 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Karl Hungus View Post
I'm a big fan of Weber but I do think his defensive game gets overrated a bit. I think he's a better version of Bieksa. An offensive defenseman that has a physical edge to his game. More offensive, more physical and less prone to mistakes but not really a cerebral defender like Pronger. I think Ryan Suter is the better player in his own zone. He can log huge minutes while skating miles. He's a tremendous passer which makes him the preferred player to start the breakout over Weber on their pairing. That being said, either defenseman would be the best blueliner on the Canucks.
He might not be as cerebral on defense, but he's also 26. He should just be entering those years where he rounds that part of his game off. Even if he doesn't, paired with a Willie Mitchell/Dan Hamhuis type and playing on a puck possession team like the Canucks he'd open up so much space down low for the forwards.

I like Suter, but he's also a 4-5g 35-40 point-ish defenseman. I wonder how many of his 35 assists a year dry up if he's not feeding the puck to Shea Weber on the Power Play?

I might be bullish on Weber, but I see him as a 55-60 point defenseman playing on the Canucks PP.

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10-28-2011, 01:00 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by VanJaysFan View Post
And BOOM goes the dynamite! /thread
In case you're too 'clever' to get my point, it's all about $. Shea is good, but he's not worth a cruise ship filled with prime assets, or $9 million/season, or whatever people keep proposing (other than the people who keep proposing 1 injured player + 1 unproven prospect + 1 talentless plug + draft pick)

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10-28-2011, 01:04 PM
  #259
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Agreed. Rock-solid homegrown D-men don't grow on trees.

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10-28-2011, 01:11 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
In case you're too 'clever' to get my point, it's all about $. Shea is good, but he's not worth a cruise ship filled with prime assets, or $9 million/season, or whatever people keep proposing (other than the people who keep proposing 1 injured player + 1 unproven prospect + 1 talentless plug + draft pick)
You talk as if the #1 defenseman doesn't sell jerseys or bring money to the team. Weber is a huge fan favourite in Nashville, people love his style of play and he'd be loved in Vancouver. Not to mention he adds an element to the defense that is sorely missed, and would help the team make it back to the finals (Obviously not a guarantee but he'd damn sure help).

Not to mention this is the team paying Steven Reinprecht 2M+ to sit in the minors, I don't think money is an issue.

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10-28-2011, 01:16 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
In case you're too 'clever' to get my point, it's all about $. Shea is good, but he's not worth a cruise ship filled with prime assets, or $9 million/season, or whatever people keep proposing (other than the people who keep proposing 1 injured player + 1 unproven prospect + 1 talentless plug + draft pick)
I bet you he'd sign long term in Vancouver for less than people think. Hopefully I get a chance to see if I'm right. It certainly wouldn't be 9 million dollars.

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10-28-2011, 01:19 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
In case you're too 'clever' to get my point, it's all about $. Shea is good, but he's not worth a cruise ship filled with prime assets, or $9 million/season, or whatever people keep proposing (other than the people who keep proposing 1 injured player + 1 unproven prospect + 1 talentless plug + draft pick)
The hyperbole is strong in this one.

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10-28-2011, 01:19 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
Superstars are players who sell tickets/merchandise/TV ratings. They're goal scorers, usually, because that's what people pay to see.

Google search results for "Shea weber superstar" : 631,000
Google search results for "Jonathan toews superstar" : 1,110,000
Google search results for "Alex ovechkin superstar" : 2,260,000
Google search results for "Sidney crosby superstar" : 7,790,000

That's the difference between great players superstars. And that's also why we'd get him cheaper than you think.
Shea Weber is a star in this league. Perennial All-Star, captain of his team, major contributor in international play, recognized by an arbitrator as the most valuable at his position this past summer.

(I'm not going to get into "star vs. superstar" because that kind of subjective mumbo jumbo leads people to do things like post volumes of Google search results as though it meant anything.)

Anyway if you think a defenseman is practically by definition "not a superstar," perhaps you can explain why the league's 139th-highest scorer (174th in goals) is making $6.9m this year. Or for that matter why another player who was 96th in scoring (also 174th in goals) found a team willing to pay him $10m this season.

As for coming "cheaper than [we] might think" that really only applies if you're using a strawman like a $9m/year figure that I've never seen anyone propose.

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10-28-2011, 01:21 PM
  #264
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He's a man with a beard and a funny first name... $1 million/year tops

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10-28-2011, 01:31 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
He might not be as cerebral on defense, but he's also 26. He should just be entering those years where he rounds that part of his game off. Even if he doesn't, paired with a Willie Mitchell/Dan Hamhuis type and playing on a puck possession team like the Canucks he'd open up so much space down low for the forwards.

I like Suter, but he's also a 4-5g 35-40 point-ish defenseman. I wonder how many of his 35 assists a year dry up if he's not feeding the puck to Shea Weber on the Power Play?

I might be bullish on Weber, but I see him as a 55-60 point defenseman playing on the Canucks PP.
Sure, I would love to have either of them. They would bring different things to the team. Weber would be a great way to fill the Ehrhoff void. He would help us keep the crease clear and make life tough for teams like the Hawks or the Bruins that like to crash the crease and then hang around and push and shove. He's a great north/south skater for someone his size.

Suter is a smoother player though. He's in the Duncan Keith, Scott Niedermeyer mold. He's not quite as explosive as those guys but he's an effortless skater that reads the play extremely well and is quite physical. He's like a bigger, faster, tougher Hamhuis.

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10-28-2011, 02:27 PM
  #266
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An offersheet for Weber in the offseason will cost the Canucks a 1st, 2nd and a third if they give him 6.25 a season. They could offer two firsts at the deadline and I think it gets done.
Weber is still a RFA this off season, Nashville wishes Weber signs an offer sheet for that coin

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10-28-2011, 02:45 PM
  #267
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Not sure if anyone mentioned this already but Weber has an absolute bomb of a slapshot from the point. Salo + Weber on the PP would be insane.

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10-28-2011, 02:51 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Karl Hungus View Post
Sure, I would love to have either of them. They would bring different things to the team. Weber would be a great way to fill the Ehrhoff void. He would help us keep the crease clear and make life tough for teams like the Hawks or the Bruins that like to crash the crease and then hang around and push and shove. He's a great north/south skater for someone his size.

Suter is a smoother player though. He's in the Duncan Keith, Scott Niedermeyer mold. He's not quite as explosive as those guys but he's an effortless skater that reads the play extremely well and is quite physical. He's like a bigger, faster, tougher Hamhuis.
Fair points. I also would take either one and hope Gillis pushes hard to acquire one of the two.

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10-28-2011, 03:05 PM
  #269
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Canucks need a RW with a good skill set and some size to compliment the second line. The biggest trading chip the team has is Schneider and there aren't many teams looking to give up big assets for a goalie at the moment. I propose trading Schneids away closer to the deadline to a team like Tampa..

Canucks trades - Schneider + Sauve

Tampa Bay trades - Purcell + 2nd rounder

Tampa gets the goalie they need to stay competitive for the playoffs. They also acquire defensive depth. Trading Purcell away is based on the continuing improvement of Connolly and Ashton who are both playing very well at the moment. The Lightning can afford to trade an asset such as Purcell since there is a bit of a logjam on the wings. Their major need is a goalie and a defenseman to solidifying their defense.

Vancouver completes this trade because of the offensive flair Purcell can bring to the second line. Hes a big Newfy whose still young and is about to hit his prime. They also gain a 2nd rounder to flip for Anaheim's third rounder if they choose to do.

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10-28-2011, 03:06 PM
  #270
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I remember reading a little article about Hamhuis (3-5 maybe?) years ago and it was one of those quick question/short answer type of thing. And while talking about his roommate, Suter, he mentioned that Suter didn't really enjoy playing games in Canada. It's been a few years and people do change...but I think the chances of Suter signing here are very, very slim...I think he will be Detroit's big defensive signing next summer.

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10-28-2011, 06:44 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
In case you're too 'clever' to get my point, it's all about $. Shea is good, but he's not worth a cruise ship filled with prime assets, or $9 million/season, or whatever people keep proposing (other than the people who keep proposing 1 injured player + 1 unproven prospect + 1 talentless plug + draft pick)
A better test than a Google volume search would be to just visit the Nashville threads about Weber, and see if they'd agree with you that he doesn't attract fans to the building...he's acknowledged by the fans, the ownership, the team and the media as the face and heart of the team, essential to sign or else they could lose a generation of fans, and it was heralded as the beginning of a new era when he took over the captaincy from Arnott.

Also, regardless of the admitted adrenaline rush of goal-scoring, most hockey commentators, GM's and coaches will tell you (this certainy comes up every draft) that there isn't anything more valuable than a big, mobile two-way defenseman.

Whether it makes sense for us or not is a debatable point that could go either way, but anything less than Edler, Hodgson, 1st/prospect type deal will just get beaten by anybody else. Nashville will want either a star-for-star replacement, there was some talk of a Parise for Weber type of swap that keeps coming up, or else, a less-than-equal replacement on defense (Edler), an offensive forward to help their scoring woes (Hodgson or Raymond if he could prove healthy) and something else to even things up (pick/prospect).

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10-28-2011, 07:02 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by dingdong View Post
Superstars are players who sell tickets/merchandise/TV ratings. They're goal scorers, usually, because that's what people pay to see.

Google search results for "Shea weber superstar" : 631,000
Google search results for "Jonathan toews superstar" : 1,110,000
Google search results for "Alex ovechkin superstar" : 2,260,000
Google search results for "Sidney crosby superstar" : 7,790,000

That's the difference between great players superstars. And that's also why we'd get him cheaper than you think.
Interesting position.

Weber must have been on Gillis' radar since the Olympics at least. He was noticeable.
I imagine he has inquired. It didn't happen.

The Canucks are in a poo position, right now. They were beat up in the playoffs, skipped camp, lost players and are now sucking in a market that is unreasonable in its expectations. Adding Weber won't cover all the symptoms, but it is a start. Unfortunate that they are already depleted. I think that's why Turris isn't here. Weber, too, the Canucks don't have the assets to fetch either.

Who can the Canucks trade? Perhaps a Dman, but that's a real gamble. A goalie? Again, too much of a gamble. A prospect? Tanev?

Would Tanev and Ebbett get Weber or Turris? The Canucks would have to offer real value, that means Edler or Schnieder or Hodgson. I do not think they want to move any of those guys. Also, there was plenty of time in the offseason to do a deal of this magnitude. They didn't. I don't think they will now. Gillis likes to win trades. The team hasn't put him in a position of strength.

As absurd as it seems, Luongo is who I'd be inquiring about, as a rival GM. He is a distressed asset, right now. This is when I'd strike, when things seem blackest. If I was Maloney I'd be asking for him for sure. If I was Gillis, I'd not dare approach the Aquilinis with this.

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10-28-2011, 09:27 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by keslerburrows View Post
Value wise: Fowler>Edler and Ryan=Kesler.


If that puts things into prospective..
Wtf? edler is better than fowler by a considerable margin. It ain't even close, the guy is still very young. Talk about overrating a guy after one good season.

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10-29-2011, 04:12 AM
  #274
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And BOOM goes the dynamite! /thread


Sealed the deal with those statistics.

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10-29-2011, 08:44 AM
  #275
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Canucks need a RW with a good skill set and some size to compliment the second line. The biggest trading chip the team has is Schneider and there aren't many teams looking to give up big assets for a goalie at the moment. I propose trading Schneids away closer to the deadline to a team like Tampa..

Canucks trades - Schneider + Sauve

Tampa Bay trades - Purcell + 2nd rounder

Tampa gets the goalie they need to stay competitive for the playoffs. They also acquire defensive depth. Trading Purcell away is based on the continuing improvement of Connolly and Ashton who are both playing very well at the moment. The Lightning can afford to trade an asset such as Purcell since there is a bit of a logjam on the wings. Their major need is a goalie and a defenseman to solidifying their defense.

Vancouver completes this trade because of the offensive flair Purcell can bring to the second line. Hes a big Newfy whose still young and is about to hit his prime. They also gain a 2nd rounder to flip for Anaheim's third rounder if they choose to do.

TJ Oshie. He's the number one target IMO. He is a mixed bag in that he plays a bigger game than his body is built for, which results in a lot of injuries. He's also go immaturity issues. But for shoring up that RW spot, he's the ticket. With him in the fold the top6 would be set.


Raymond would be a good asset to send the other way because of the uncertainty surrounding Perron and McDonald, year to year. Both have significant concussion issues. Meanwhile, Oshie is already playing behind Stewart on RW. Next year, Tarasenko should challenge for a RW spot also. So they have the organizational depth to make a deal for a LW spot. Getting a versatile player like Raymond on the LW could benefit them more in the long run. Add a LD like Sauve/Alberts or a prospect like Schroeder, and it has the makings of a solid deal for both sides IMO.


Oshie for Raymond and Schroeder/Sauve.

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