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Could the rebuild be failing? And was the 08 draft good overall?

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10-29-2011, 03:02 AM
  #1
Icedemon
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Could the rebuild be failing? And was the 08 draft good overall?

When I look at teams who have gone through the task of tearing it all down and going into the 3-5 year rebuilding program there should be noticeable strides by year 3 and 4. When teams go through the 3 year plan they usually have acquired numerous picks, prospects and other pieces along the way and are usually a top 5 pick or two from being ready to play into late april and early may. This is the quote on quote "norm" for that. 5 year plan is going through a long grueling process of totally starting from scratch and building almost completely through the draft to build a contender and replenish the farm.
We have been by what I and the majority of this long suffering fan base consider as a 20 year rebuild. Snow put in place the beginning of the rebuild after the departure of ryan smyth, jason blake, viktor kozlov, tom poti, and several other players who helped the team get to the postseason in 2006-2007. 2007-2008 was in some ways the beginning of the rebuild. Islanders picked around 7-8 players in the 2008 draft. A draft that they did not picka player who could be a cornerstone. Josh Bailey was by many scouts and analysts to be picked as high as 12th, and as low as 20th. Bailey was basically an off the board pick. Scouts believed he could possibly be a 2nd line center, but was at worse destined to be a 3rd liner. Snow chose Bailey over the last 2 top 10 ranked NA skaters in hulking defenseman Tyler Myers, center Cody Hodgson, as well as 4th ranked european defensman Erik Karlsson. Myers and Karlsson. Myers spent 1 final year in the WHL before his debut in 2009-20010 which earned him an all star trip and calder trophy. Karlsson debuted the same year and had stellar numbers before going to the all star game in his 2nd season. Snow believed he was getting a character players in bailey, but bailey was not the best player available. His development has been messed with but he has not grown in each of his 3 NHL seasons. If anything he has regressed. The isles failed to get a cornerstone player in the 1st round. Something that is desperately needed in the early stages of a rebuild. Hamonic, Petrov, Poulin, Ness, Ulstrom, and Donovan are the only bright spots in that draft. But were all picked in the later rounds.
So was the 2008 draft a good one. To an extent it was by stocking up the farm which was desperately needed. But the team did not get that player that could have an impact within a year or 2. Bailey was not that player. People were scratching their heads as to why snow passed on Hodgson, and Myers (aside from dropping back twice).
The rebuild overall has not been a full success when you stack it up to teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Washington who all went through 5 year rebuilds, but saw growth and success in all areas by years 3 and 4. The isles have either been stagnent or taken steps back. Injuries have played a role, but the team has not gone out to acquire quality veterans to help the kids like other rebuilding teams have. Toronto went through a quasi rebuild that is now showing signs of growth with the team ranked among the best in the east early on. Edmonton who began their rebuild about a year or 2 after us are the 2nd best team out west in their 3rd year of the 5 year plan. The kids they drafted along with top picks Taylor Hall and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins are all developing great chemistry in a extremely tough western conference. They added solid veterans along the way to help them grow and take some pressure off when times are tough.
That is an area the isles have failed. The dump known as NVMC plays a part, but FA's look at the teams long term future and the front office. The front office has been seen as a joke since wang fired Neil Smith after 40 days on the job to hire current gm Garth Snow who retired from being the teams back up goalie to take the job. Smith was seen as the architect of the rags 94 cup team, and firing a guy who turn that joke of a team into a champion to hire your back up goalie as gm takes whatever respect you got away in a flash. Snow has stuck to his guns, but he has repeated the same thing every year that this is a playoff team when in reality the fan base knew this team wouldn't make it after all those players left in the summer of 2007. In 2008 he said we're a playoff team, but they failed. Injuries played a part but this team had zero firepower offensively to do so. 2009 after selecting John Tavares 1st overall, he said this is a playoff team, and they failed. Injuries again played a part but team had no depth. Last year same story no need to repeat.
And finally this year hopes were high and have been dashed after a similar quick start out the gate, the team has lost it's last 4 in a row with an 0-3-1 record. So comparing are rebuild to other teams rebuilds. We are behind the 8 ball badly. The team is showing no fire or drive. Players expected to produce are doing nothing. Tavares is once again the only bright spot. He doesn't have a strong supporting cast when you stack this team up against the other young teams. This is year 4 of the rebuild, and it is not looking good. You can only sell potential and hope for so long. The fan base is at it's breaking point now. If this team does not get it going come december. Then changes will have to be made going into next season. Nothing was done to help the team improve in the off season. Adding washed up vets who will be out of the NHL after this year like pandolfo, rolston, and so on will not get you over the hump. The fan base wants to win now cause seeing teams like edmonton come out fast against good teams is painful to see. And with the time ticking on the teams future in nassau county. Will we see a winner that we were promised before 2015? Who knows. But something has to be done to light a fire in this team. Cause for all but 2 games this year, they have played without heart, toughness, and the sheer desire to lay it all out on the line to win.
You are no longer boys in college or juniors. You are in the NHL. You are pros. Now play like ****ing pro hockey players or get out of here.

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10-29-2011, 03:22 AM
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I don't know why you think the fan base is at it's breaking point. Every year the fan base is at it's "breaking point". I am an Orioles fan... I haven't cared to watch them play for 10 years. I enjoy hockey more so I still watch the Isles lose. I don't think there really is a "breaking point" for the fan base. Attendance will be low (like it has been) but the "breaking point" will happen for Wang, nobody else. It's his boat to sink or sail. It's not your call or the fan's call, lol.

As far as the rebuild, you have recognized that getting veterans is affected by the coliseum and the management but you underplay it too much. The line "has not gone out and gotten veteran presence" is 100% not Snow's fault. He has tried dilligently every chance he has gotten. It's just time to accept that this is not a place where people want to play. Those who get drafted and see Long Island love it and that makes sense. They are definitely willing to stay. Those on the outside who don't live here would never want to sign. Snow knows it has to be done by drafting and that's all he's got.

As far as the rebuild being successful, I think it is average. I think a great example of a successful rebuild is Chicago. I don't think using the Pens or Caps as an example is fair. The drafts for the Caps and Pens had true superstar game changers and it would have been difficult for the to screw that up. There moves were obvious. I don't think it's fair to include them. Chicago, though, had a great rebuild and started all the way back with guys like Patrick Sharp. The Islanders drafting through the 2000's was mostly miserable and the bonehead move to pass on Parise is the one true sore spot I have for their horrible drafting.

So just to sum up my opinion, the Isles have done an average job with the rebuild factoring in the strength of the drafts and the fact that adding veterans is severely handicapped. It's going to be another struggle to stay at .500 this year and we will see who gets blamed for it this time around. Guys like Capuano, Comeau, Bailey and Okposo should keep a packed bag. I like Okposo and Capuano, but some people are going to be hit with blame. Bailey and Comeau can go right now for all I care, I think they could be replaced through the waiver wire at some point.

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10-29-2011, 06:40 AM
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The team does not get any better. So of course it is failing. But don't worry, Bailey passed the psych test. He's a nice guy......

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10-29-2011, 08:03 AM
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I'm going to read your post and respond to it, but I want to answer your question first. Could the rebuild be failing? Absolutely. But, there's still hope for Aaron Ness, we hit on Travis Hamonic, and I'm not sure about Corey Trivino. Did that guy decide he wants to be a hockey player yet? I haven't followed him much THIS YEAR in college. I know that he's been a BU sucker through last year.

In short, the 08 drat appears to be failing, but it can be salvaged. Starting tonight, Josh Bailey can either turn it around, or we can trick another team into taking him and giving us something quality for him, even if it's in a package.

The rebuild overall, yes it is failing, and not necessarily because of the prospects. But the kids have not been surrounded by the right people. Let's say you want to build a new house. You go out, buy the best wood, the best concrete for your foundation, but decided not to invest in nails. What you have is this great material, but nothing to put it together. And when you decide that it's time to invest in nails, you get the cheapest nails because as much as you love this house, you still don't want to spend too much money. And when you see that the nails are failing you, you pull them out, and go to Home Depot to buy... more cheap nails.

I think the overall project is failing. Bailey pisses me off, but I'm not sure if I necessarily blame him. He was mishandled first of all by being rushed, then Scott Gordon jerked him around. Bailey's gotten worse, but I would be very encouraged if he would bury his early years, pull himself up by the boot straps, and start playing hockey.

Frankly, I don't remember much beyond Tavares and de Haan in the 2009 draft. Tavares was an obvious gimme. We're still waiting to see what's been accomplished in 2010 and 2011.

Now, I am not at all preaching patience. Because that's kind of a cop out. No, it IS a cop out. I'm willing to be patient with the prospects, but not with the team. Unfortunately, management has not allowed that, because too many prospects ARE the team. I'm very disappointed that John Tavares has not been surrounded by more experienced players. To a large extent Crosby was surrounded by experienced, quality vets immediately, and to a lesser extent, Ovechkin was, too. What I love about Tavares is that he's surrounded by players rescued from the scrap heap, if not virtual crap, and making the best of it. Even when he "couldn't skate", he made Moulson look real good.

Management is failing us, and in turn, the players are failing us, but they do need to visibly try harder. So I blame them for that.

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10-29-2011, 08:29 AM
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Bailey has shown brief flashes of NHL ability that would translate into a good/decent 2nd line center if applied consistently throughout a season.
After his early season hip pointer last year, and upon his return, he was not the same player as before.
The fact that Bailey displayed that ability means that he has the physical apptitude to accomplish it. Any stooge put out there does not have that apptitude.
So what holds Bailey back from playing like he can?
He was drafted by Snow based on his OHL junior career and "character". But Bailey fails either the character test or the confidence test. Why he has no confidence is lack of character. He hesitates instead of reacting instinctively, letting his ability take over. He still has that "deer in the headlights" thing going on instead of just making plays, being audatious like that kid Skinner, like Nugent-Hopkins.
Not saying Bailey has the skills of those players, but he has a hell of a lot more skills and abilites than we are witnessing now.
Bailey has only so much time to just intenalize what he has to do on the ice, then let lose and do it, not think it over, even for a split second.
If he can not do that, he will be in the AHL in two years, and we will have wasted a top 10 pick for no return, not even 4th liner.
Cappy has been supportive, but now it is the time for someone to kick him in the ass. Demote to 4th line, or pressbox for awhile. Tell him to just play, not analyze. The kid is on the brink of total failure as an impact play. I would accept him as a 3rd line center if he can get it done in a professional manner.

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10-29-2011, 08:41 AM
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Bailey has shown brief flashes of NHL ability that would translate into a good/decent 2nd line center if applied consistently throughout a season.
After his early season hip pointer last year, and upon his return, he was not the same player as before.
The fact that Bailey displayed that ability means that he has the physical apptitude to accomplish it. Any stooge put out there does not have that apptitude.
So what holds Bailey back from playing like he can?
He was drafted by Snow based on his OHL junior career and "character". But Bailey fails either the character test or the confidence test. Why he has no confidence is lack of character. He hesitates instead of reacting instinctively, letting his ability take over. He still has that "deer in the headlights" thing going on instead of just making plays, being audatious like that kid Skinner, like Nugent-Hopkins.
Not saying Bailey has the skills of those players, but he has a hell of a lot more skills and abilites than we are witnessing now.
Bailey has only so much time to just intenalize what he has to do on the ice, then let lose and do it, not think it over, even for a split second.
If he can not do that, he will be in the AHL in two years, and we will have wasted a top 10 pick for no return, not even 4th liner.
Cappy has been supportive, but now it is the time for someone to kick him in the ass. Demote to 4th line, or pressbox for awhile. Tell him to just play, not analyze. The kid is on the brink of total failure as an impact play. I would accept him as a 3rd line center if he can get it done in a professional manner.
Wow! I did not like where you were going with this. I thought you were going to blame everything on the hip pointer. But you recovered nicely. Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything. But before dropping him to the 4th line and dumping him in the press box, I would like to see him get another crack with Okposo, just to see if it works.

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10-29-2011, 10:05 AM
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Oil>Island

It certainly does seem that EDM's rebuild is progressing better than NYI's. They are in the softest division, however.

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10-29-2011, 10:12 AM
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10-29-2011, 10:52 AM
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is that Matt Moulson?

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It certainly does seem that EDM's rebuild is progressing better than NYI's. They are in the softest division, however.
they tanked better so they have better children right now. Plus, EDM has also accomplished squat so far.

And frankly, who cares about EDM. They are in another conference, the next time we have to think about EDM is in the FINALS!
---

I don't think the '08 draft matters any more than any other draft. It's ridiculous to put so much emphasis on the draft in your rebuild plan. That's just ONE PIECE of a rebuild PLAN.

Tanking and drafting - well, even one of US could be a GM if that's the plan. Rebuild by solely the draft is NOT a strategy. Not a GOOD strategy anyway.

Snow's not been able to land the Smyth, Hemsky, Horcoff, Whitney, Smid, Khabibulin type of real NHL players to help carry the offensive AND defensive responsibilities along the way. Edm hasn't done that great, but better than the NYI so far - adding $13MM on the cap over what the NYI have as well.

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10-29-2011, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by xECK29x View Post
LOL....yeah there are 6-7 threads that are in essence like this one.

Hey Mods how about we create one thread that is titled as "Islander Fans Who Hate The Islanders"

That would probably cover all of it.

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10-29-2011, 12:16 PM
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no the rebuild isnt failing, bailey wasnt the only piece from the 08 draft the isles also got matt martin and hamonic who are both fan favorites and poulin, ullstrom and donovan are still in the ahl and if petrov comes over it will have been an amazing draft even if bailey doesnt get any better

whether or not bailey develops into a 2nd line center doesn't change the fact that the 08 draft was very good for the isles but it could help

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10-29-2011, 12:35 PM
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Hamonic, Petrov, Poulin, Ness, Ulstrom, and Donovan are the only bright spots in that draft. But were all picked in the later rounds.

So was the 2008 draft a good one. To an extent it was by stocking up the farm which was desperately needed. But the team did not get that player that could have an impact within a year or 2.
To me these are the two points worth the three paragraphs in your opening. So let me start by rewinding and asking you, "What is a successful draft?" For most of us following the draft you hope for a minimum of two picks who become good players, one of which you hope will be an impact player. I think we can all agree that Hamonic is and will be an impact player. Forget where he was picked, he is the equivalent of a top ten pick and what you hope they will be. We also got Poulin and I think he will be an impact goaltender. IMO, right there you say we won. Ness looked like an overvalued midget. Wow is all I can say after this summer. I see no reason he can't be our one and only small defenseman at some point who is highly skilled. Donovan looks like he will be good depth, and funny enough, Petrov is this strange 50/50 wild card. I look at that draft and think it was a solid win. That leaves Bailey, which goes to the other issue:

What did we do in the first round? Did we lose? Maybe, but recall we really needed to get into the upper 4 to get that next level defenseman. We didn't, and unfortunately Garth didn't trade into that portion of the round. Given the other additions and whence they came from in the round, and if we had picked differently maybe the dominos of other GM decisions may have changed enough not to get Hamonic or Donovan or Poulin... who can say?

IMO, we were winners that draft. If you want a draft to rag on jump to the DeHaan draft. I think Garth may have completely screwed the pooch on that one because we walked away from three quality picks for Calvin.

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10-29-2011, 12:46 PM
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LOL....yeah there are 6-7 threads that are in essence like this one.

Hey Mods how about we create one thread that is titled as "Islander Fans Who Hate The Islanders"

That would probably cover all of it.
lol brilliant idea!

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10-29-2011, 12:54 PM
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no the rebuild isnt failing, bailey wasnt the only piece from the 08 draft the isles also got matt martin and hamonic who are both fan favorites and poulin, ullstrom and donovan are still in the ahl and if petrov comes over it will have been an amazing draft even if bailey doesnt get any better

whether or not bailey develops into a 2nd line center doesn't change the fact that the 08 draft was very good for the isles but it could help
This rebuild was dependant on a couple of things in order to be complete:

1. Tavares establishing himself as a legitimate #1 center. Check.
2. Okposo establishing himself as a legitmate top six forward. Fail, although this can change.
3. Bailey establishing himself as a legitimate #2 center. Extreme fail, although this too can change.
4. Niederietter establishing himself as a legitimate top three winger. TBD.
5. Character guys establishing themselves as charater guys (Martin, Cizikas, etc). TBD, but I believe this will happen.
6. Splash in some good character vets/role players. TBD, we're still not there yet.

In short, its not looking good. We sorely lack 2 top six wings and 1 #2 center. If things continue as they are, we're looking at another 2-3 of "rebuilding".

I wonder if Garth seriously gets paid to sit on his hands. Does he even watch this team?

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10-29-2011, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by HyeDray View Post
LOL....yeah there are 6-7 threads that are in essence like this one.

Hey Mods how about we create one thread that is titled as "Islander Fans Who Hate The Islanders"

That would probably cover all of it.
I promise you I don't hate the Islanders and im sure most don't. But things are not working out as planned for this rebuild so far. Yes, many things remain to be seen still, but IMO, we should be further along than we are and Garth, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to want to make moves to improve the rebuild's chances for success.

We do need to call it like it is, no?

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10-29-2011, 01:26 PM
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Yeah, the rebuild is failing after only 4 years since it started.

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10-29-2011, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrisUML View Post
This rebuild was dependant on a couple of things in order to be complete:

1. Tavares establishing himself as a legitimate #1 center. Check.
2. Okposo establishing himself as a legitmate top six forward. Fail, although this can change.
3. Bailey establishing himself as a legitimate #2 center. Extreme fail, although this too can change.
4. Niederietter establishing himself as a legitimate top three winger. TBD.
5. Character guys establishing themselves as charater guys (Martin, Cizikas, etc). TBD, but I believe this will happen.
6. Splash in some good character vets/role players. TBD, we're still not there yet.

In short, its not looking good. We sorely lack 2 top six wings and 1 #2 center. If things continue as they are, we're looking at another 2-3 of "rebuilding".

I wonder if Garth seriously gets paid to sit on his hands. Does he even watch this team?
This is the problem I have with a lot a fans. Didn't Snow try to get that top 4 d-man in the offseason? Yes. Hasn't he had great drafts in the past few years? Again the answer is yes. Not many teams are going to go from last place finishes to winning the cup in 3-4 years.

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10-29-2011, 01:42 PM
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This is the problem I have with a lot a fans. Didn't Snow try to get that top 4 d-man in the offseason? Yes. Hasn't he had great drafts in the past few years? Again the answer is yes. Not many teams are going to go from last place finishes to winning the cup in 3-4 years.
Yes and no. He tried to get one (1) specific defenseman with a limited offer and failed. Then we see that his backup plan if that one (1) offer failed was to, and I am doing my best to quote him, "See what shakes out of the other camps once rosters are reduced before the season starts."

Gee, that worked out well, didn't it? Look, they have a glaring need on several fronts, one on defense that is the worst issue, and one as Tavares' wing which is a close second. Trying to get it done does not include one limited shot at the ring, and a really lame attempt to steal the ring after the first attempt fails. If you really need that ring, you do what it takes to get it done. It likely won't get done this season either since there isn't much movement during the season anymore, and at the trade deadline teams out of the playoffs don't get the big player for picks, it is the other way around. So this is a valid fail on behalf of the owner and GM.

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10-29-2011, 01:58 PM
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Yes and no. He tried to get one (1) specific defenseman with a limited offer and failed. Then we see that his backup plan if that one (1) offer failed was to, and I am doing my best to quote him, "See what shakes out of the other camps once rosters are reduced before the season starts."

Gee, that worked out well, didn't it? Look, they have a glaring need on several fronts, one on defense that is the worst issue, and one as Tavares' wing which is a close second. Trying to get it done does not include one limited shot at the ring, and a really lame attempt to steal the ring after the first attempt fails. If you really need that ring, you do what it takes to get it done. It likely won't get done this season either since there isn't much movement during the season anymore, and at the trade deadline teams out of the playoffs don't get the big player for picks, it is the other way around. So this is a valid fail on behalf of the owner and GM.
What else was his backup plan going to be? The list of free agent defenseman was thin this season. And how was is a limited offer? I'm sure the Islanders wee thinking they needed to give him 10 years and 40 million like the Sabres did. Also we did get Staios who is a better option then others out there.

I can't believe people are saying the rebuild is a fail when we're not even 10 games into the season.

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10-29-2011, 02:31 PM
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You can't say that the rebuild is failing at this time until we see what Strome, Nino, Anders Lee, Petrov, Kabanov, DeHaan, Poulin and Nilsson can do in the NHL. The building blocks are not all in their proper places yet. Edmonton looks better at this point because Taylor Hall and RNH are already contributing at this stage.

As far as Bailey is concerned, I was one of the people that wanted Filatov. Filatov appears to be a bust and Josh has accomplished more than Wilson, Hodgson and 95% of the forwards taken after him at this point. The problem with him is that he is not progressing because of a lack of confidence. Am I the only person that notices that the better JT plays the worse that Josh plays? It's not jealousy but he feels less confident and not as important to the team. Cappy needs to correct this by firmly establishing KO and Bailey on the second line with second line power play minutes. He can put Matt Martin on the line for an energy boost or drop Moulson to this line for scoring. JT does not need anyone to play well, Moulson benefits from playing with John not vice versa.

The other option is to skate Josh on JT's line for a few games. In this way we'll get a better read on his upside.

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10-29-2011, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
This is the problem I have with a lot a fans. Didn't Snow try to get that top 4 d-man in the offseason? Yes. Hasn't he had great drafts in the past few years? Again the answer is yes. Not many teams are going to go from last place finishes to winning the cup in 3-4 years.
Results are what counts, not this he tried nonsense. What great drafts? Bailey sucks, and no other players besides JT is making a real impact. Anyone one of us could have picked him. How about they actually get out of the bottom five?

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10-29-2011, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HyeDray View Post
LOL....yeah there are 6-7 threads that are in essence like this one.

Hey Mods how about we create one thread that is titled as "Islander Fans Who Hate The Islanders"

That would probably cover all of it.
Maybe the mods should create a lets not deal in the reality of this team thread. You could be the leader.

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10-29-2011, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
This is the problem I have with a lot a fans. Didn't Snow try to get that top 4 d-man in the offseason? Yes. Hasn't he had great drafts in the past few years? Again the answer is yes. Not many teams are going to go from last place finishes to winning the cup in 3-4 years.
As APS already said, you cant give pointa for trying. Snow needs to be judged by the on ice product.

Wins/losses aside (our record is not too bad) we look like ass out there except for 2 games. Four years into rebuild, we are not close to being comptetitive. Yes, things are still TBD, but whats makes you think things will pan out? How many years are you willing to allow the "rebuilding" excuse? Also, how many rebuilds do you know of where 100% of the team comes from waivers and the draft? Garth needs to acquire talent in other ways too, and so far he is unwilling/unable to.

Relying on kids alone is dangerous. It could work or we could be in perpetual rebuild. Were guaranteed nothing. Bailey is proof of this.

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10-29-2011, 03:27 PM
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this threads lack of paragraphs tick me off

anyway, the person who made the house/nails analogy hit the nail on the head (waka waka). The club needs 2 more guys like Streit. I'm sure Pandolfo, Rolston & Reasoner all do their part, but none of them are great players. They need to bring in a legit top line talent & a legit #1/2 Dman. That will bring the team together. You can't just build ONLY with prospects.

If he has to trade for those players because they won't sign here, then go for it. I'll never understand why this club couldn't get in on the Jeff Carter/Mike Richards sweepstakes. sure you can make the interdivision argument, but I don't buy it. Even if they were out in the west Snow wouldn't have gone after it.

Christ, get a freaking building already so this franchise can stop being in limbo. it's so frustrating.

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10-29-2011, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrisUML View Post
As APS already said, you cant give pointa for trying. Snow needs to be judged by the on ice product.

Wins/losses aside (our record is not too bad) we look like ass out there except for 2 games. Four years into rebuild, we are not close to being comptetitive. Yes, things are still TBD, but whats makes you think things will pan out? How many years are you willing to allow the "rebuilding" excuse? Also, how many rebuilds do you know of where 100% of the team comes from waivers and the draft? Garth needs to acquire talent in other ways too, and so far he is unwilling/unable to.

Relying on kids alone is dangerous. It could work or we could be in perpetual rebuild. Were guaranteed nothing. Bailey is proof of this.
It's been 4 years into the rebuild. It can take up to 4-6 years for it to all come together. It's scary that people actually want Garth the make moves to aquire top talent. Remember what happened last time we tried to aquire "top talent"? Mike Milbury happened. He has been trying to get players here. Players don't want to though. So his only option is to have good drafts and find good players to make the Islanders a more attractive team. Wait until guys like Nino and Strome come up before we say the rebuild is a failure. Rome wasn't built in a day and so you can't expect the Isles to.

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