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Isles have excess depth on the Wings

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Old
11-04-2005, 02:36 PM
  #51
Hi-wayman
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I can't see Calgary trading Warrener. In today's salary concious NHL, he is very under paid for wahat he contributes to the team & he is too much of what Sutter expects from his key players.

Though many Islander & Canuck fans might not like my trade proposal, Vancouver may be a more compatable trading partner with the Islanders. The Canucks don't need help on the forward line, but either Weinhandl with his connection with the Sedins or York would add a bit of depth to the Canucks. What the Canucks need is to improve upon their prospect depth and currently to acquire a solid backup goalie to Auld if he is to challenge Cloutier for the Canuck's #1 goal position. Though Auld seems ready to step into a #1 role, he is young enough that he can still fill the back up role, but Cloutier, though he is not & never will be a franchise level #1, is still too good & too expensive to step back into a backup role full time.

Both teams have to be very consious of their salary cap in any trade proposal. I also think the Islander's defensive depth is in more serious trouble than what most HF fans have indicated in this thread as I see them lacking a true NHL level #1 D. On a good NHL team neither Niinimaa or Zhitnik would be asked to fill a #1 D role. #2 or #3 D role yes, but not a #1.

I propose the Canucks send Jovanovski and Cloutier to the Islanders for DePietro, Sopel, Weinhandl and at the end of the season, a conditional choice of either the Islander's 2007 first round pick or Ryan O'Marra (Vancouver's choice) if Jovo resigns with the Islanders or the Islander's 2007 2nd round pick if Jovo does not resign with the Isles (by not including 2006 picks, the Isles have time to resign Jovo prior to the start of next season).

Cloutier's & DePietro's salaries are a wash. Though DePietro has far more potential upside than Cloutier, Cloutier is still a legitimate NHL #1 goalie & actually, due to age & experience, is out playing DePietro at this time as DePietro has yet to prove he will reach his projected potential. Cloutier is definately a better and younger goalie than Garth Snow, but I think Cloutier & Snow would be a good tandem in goal together. DePietro would be placed in the backup role to Auld this year and allowed to develop slowly. Eventually one of the two would be traded to make room for Schnieder or Ellis-Plante when they are ready to move up.

Jovo, who is just entering his prime NHL years, would give the Isles a legitimate #1 D to build around. Jovo, as well as Ohlund & Salo, seem to be thriving on the new NHL rules. Sopel isn't even close to Jovo in ability, experience or potential (far more of a difference than the Cloutier/DePietro spread), but we know he can play well with Ohlund and Allen could be paired with Salo. Sopel's and Weinhandl's salaries make up for most of Jovocop's against the Isle's cap space. The 1st round pick balances out value.

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11-04-2005, 02:52 PM
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There is absolutely no way I'd trade Dipietro for a 1year rental of Jovo. And there's also no way I trade Dipietro and O'Marra for Jovo. And that's not even accounting for the rest of the stuff you have the Isles throwing in for Cloutier.

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11-04-2005, 02:59 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
I can't see Calgary trading Warrener. In today's salary concious NHL, he is very under paid for wahat he contributes to the team & he is too much of what Sutter expects from his key players.

Though many Islander & Canuck fans might not like my trade proposal, Vancouver may be a more compatable trading partner with the Islanders. The Canucks don't need help on the forward line, but either Weinhandl with his connection with the Sedins or York would add a bit of depth to the Canucks. What the Canucks need is to improve upon their prospect depth and currently to acquire a solid backup goalie to Auld if he is to challenge Cloutier for the Canuck's #1 goal position. Though Auld seems ready to step into a #1 role, he is young enough that he can still fill the back up role, but Cloutier, though he is not & never will be a franchise level #1, is still too good & too expensive to step back into a backup role full time.

Both teams have to be very consious of their salary cap in any trade proposal. I also think the Islander's defensive depth is in more serious trouble than what most HF fans have indicated in this thread as I see them lacking a true NHL level #1 D. On a good NHL team neither Niinimaa or Zhitnik would be asked to fill a #1 D role. #2 or #3 D role yes, but not a #1.

I propose the Canucks send Jovanovski and Cloutier to the Islanders for DePietro, Sopel, Weinhandl and at the end of the season, a conditional choice of either the Islander's 2007 first round pick or Ryan O'Marra (Vancouver's choice) if Jovo resigns with the Islanders or the Islander's 2007 2nd round pick if Jovo does not resign with the Isles (by not including 2006 picks, the Isles have time to resign Jovo prior to the start of next season).

Cloutier's & DePietro's salaries are a wash. Though DePietro has far more potential upside than Cloutier, Cloutier is still a legitimate NHL #1 goalie & actually, due to age & experience, is out playing DePietro at this time as DePietro has yet to prove he will reach his projected potential. Cloutier is definately a better and younger goalie than Garth Snow, but I think Cloutier & Snow would be a good tandem in goal together. DePietro would be placed in the backup role to Auld this year and allowed to develop slowly. Eventually one of the two would be traded to make room for Schnieder or Ellis-Plante when they are ready to move up.

Jovo, who is just entering his prime NHL years, would give the Isles a legitimate #1 D to build around. Jovo, as well as Ohlund & Salo, seem to be thriving on the new NHL rules. Sopel isn't even close to Jovo in ability, experience or potential (far more of a difference than the Cloutier/DePietro spread), but we know he can play well with Ohlund and Allen could be paired with Salo. Sopel's and Weinhandl's salaries make up for most of Jovocop's against the Isle's cap space. The 1st round pick balances out value.
Most of the basic premises of this deal are completely unworkable. The Isles won't be trading some huge package of assets for an impending UFA. And, right now, the Isles are right up against the cap. So, even if they wanted Jovo, they'd have to move far more salary before they could afford him (more than Sopel and Weinhandl) And, they definitely would not have room to sign him next summer. So, it would be basically gutting our team for an impending UFA that we can't afford.

Besides that, Jovocop is an overrated player given the brutal giveaways and occassional bad positioning. I think his plus/minus on the Island would be humiliating (given the poor defensive play of our fowards).

The Isles won't be moving first round picks, or O'Marra, given their desperate need for cheap young talent. Those assets aren't even on the table.

Dipietro is untouchable. He won't be traded. Even mentioning his name in trade talks ends the conversation.

No reason to trade Weinhandl in a deal like this, despite the constant obsession that some Nucks fans seem to have with him. He is a useful player on the Island, makes little $, and has no real market value. Trading him would remove a decent winger, but would not bring any real value in return. NOw, if he was a valuable chip in a deal that would bring us a player we really want, that would be different. But, otherwise, I'd rather just keep him.

Cloutier is far from being as good as you say. Snow and Cloutier woudl be one of the worst tandems in the NHL

This deal would absolutely destroy the Isles. In fact, this whole proposal is built around your desire to upgrade the Nucks in net, and unload an impending UFA. There is not one piece of this that begins to have a hint of being workable.

The only Nuck that would address the Isles need for a physical young defender is Allen, and I don't expect him to be going anywhere anytime soon.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 11-04-2005 at 04:09 PM.
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11-04-2005, 02:59 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
There is absolutely no way I'd trade Dipietro for a 1year rental of Jovo. And there's also no way I trade Dipietro and O'Marra for Jovo. And that's not even accounting for the rest of the stuff you have the Isles throwing in for Cloutier.
Yeah, that was one of the more one-sided proposals in this thread. Yikes!

If the Nucks are really desperate for wingers (and I'm not saying they are), I'd offer them one of Trent Hunter, Mark Parrish AND Brent Sopel, or Weinhandl and Sopel for Bryan Allen.


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11-04-2005, 03:12 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman

Though many Islander & Canuck fans might not like my trade proposal, Vancouver may be a more compatable trading partner with the Islanders. The Canucks don't need help on the forward line, but either Weinhandl with his connection with the Sedins or York would add a bit of depth to the Canucks. What the Canucks need is to improve upon their prospect depth and currently to acquire a solid backup goalie to Auld if he is to challenge Cloutier for the Canuck's #1 goal position. Though Auld seems ready to step into a #1 role, he is young enough that he can still fill the back up role, but Cloutier, though he is not & never will be a franchise level #1, is still too good & too expensive to step back into a backup role full time.

Both teams have to be very consious of their salary cap in any trade proposal. I also think the Islander's defensive depth is in more serious trouble than what most HF fans have indicated in this thread as I see them lacking a true NHL level #1 D. On a good NHL team neither Niinimaa or Zhitnik would be asked to fill a #1 D role. #2 or #3 D role yes, but not a #1.

I propose the Canucks send Jovanovski and Cloutier to the Islanders for DePietro, Sopel, Weinhandl and at the end of the season, a conditional choice of either the Islander's 2007 first round pick or Ryan O'Marra (Vancouver's choice) if Jovo resigns with the Islanders or the Islander's 2007 2nd round pick if Jovo does not resign with the Isles (by not including 2006 picks, the Isles have time to resign Jovo prior to the start of next season).

Cloutier's & DePietro's salaries are a wash. Though DePietro has far more potential upside than Cloutier, Cloutier is still a legitimate NHL #1 goalie & actually, due to age & experience, is out playing DePietro at this time as DePietro has yet to prove he will reach his projected potential. Cloutier is definately a better and younger goalie than Garth Snow, but I think Cloutier & Snow would be a good tandem in goal together. DePietro would be placed in the backup role to Auld this year and allowed to develop slowly. Eventually one of the two would be traded to make room for Schnieder or Ellis-Plante when they are ready to move up.

Jovo, who is just entering his prime NHL years, would give the Isles a legitimate #1 D to build around. Jovo, as well as Ohlund & Salo, seem to be thriving on the new NHL rules. Sopel isn't even close to Jovo in ability, experience or potential (far more of a difference than the Cloutier/DePietro spread), but we know he can play well with Ohlund and Allen could be paired with Salo. Sopel's and Weinhandl's salaries make up for most of Jovocop's against the Isle's cap space. The 1st round pick balances out value.
DIpietro's just 24 withabout 90 career nhl games,not 34 with several hundred nhl games Wang has said he wants patience from nyi fans regarding the youngsters.Neither isle fans,ownership or the front office would be interested in exchanging Cloutier for DiPietro.What a silly,shortsighted move.

are the Canucks interested in exchanging the Sedin twins for the more established Parrish and Kvasha?

and if the isles want Jovo,they are much more likely to just wait 8 months and sign him as a ufa,then trade a 1st rounder or a top bluechip prospect for him.

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11-04-2005, 03:16 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
DIpietro's just 24 withabout 90 career nhl games,not 34 with several hundred nhl games Wang has said he wants patience from nyi fans regarding the youngsters.Neither isle fans,ownership or the front office would be interested in exchanging Cloutier for DiPietro.What a silly,shortsighted move.

are the Canucks interested in exchanging the Sedin twins for the more established Parrish and Kvasha?

and if the isles want Jovo,they are much more likely to just wait 8 months and sign him as a ufa,then trade a 1st rounder or a top bluechip prospect for him.
Even if the Isles want Jovocop, there would be no way they can fit him under the payroll next summer. He should easily get more than Hamrlik or Aucoin, and the Isles could not afford either. I'm guessing he'll get in the range of 4 - 5 million, and the Isles currently have something like $500,000 room. I'm guessing they'll move payroll off this summer, by deleting Parrish and Kvasha and possibly Bates, but other players (like Dipietro) may be looking for raises or longterm deals. So, the chances of the Isles making that kind of major signing next summer are nil.

And, for payroll reasons, I don't think that Jovocop has any real trade value at the present moment. There is no team that has room for his payroll, and none that would trade for him knowing he'd be lost next summer.


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11-04-2005, 10:35 PM
  #57
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That proposal makes me sick to my stomach. Yet again fans seem to think that just because Milbury may be dumb enough to accept a bad proposal that they can float it to Isles fans. DiPietro, our franchise player (with respect to Alexei Yashin), Brent Sopel, a competent though unspectacular top 4 defenseman, Mattias Weinhandl, a young forward with huge potential and Ryan O'Marra (argueably our top prospect) or our #1 pick (which if we made this deal would turn out being pretty high.)

All that for an overpayed, inconsistent defenseman who will be off the team after the season and a painfully streaky goaltender who currently presents a downgrade from DiPietro. That's just ridiculous

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11-04-2005, 11:25 PM
  #58
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If I were the GM of the Islanders, I wouldn't trade Dipietro alone for Cloutier and Jovo, let alone adding in Sopel, Weinhandl and a conditional pick. It's very much up for debate as to whether or not Cloutier is even on the same level as Dipietro now, let alone down the line. I would be inclined to say that he isn't. So far this season, neither goaltender has set the world on fire, however 24-year old Rick Dipietro does have All-Star potential, whereas Cloutier's potential is not much higher than where he currently is; i.e, a middle to lower level NHL starter. You do not trade your team's future in goal for a mediocre goaltender and a defenseman who will do little to fix the team's problems.

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11-05-2005, 02:57 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I'm guessing they'll move payroll off this summer, by deleting Parrish and Kvasha and possibly Bates, but other players (like Dipietro) may be looking for raises or longterm deals.
As Long as Bates makes under a million he probably will resign. Parrish most likely will be the one out, i have a feeling we might resign Kvasha(although at this point it's probably best to let him go).

As for the Canucks trade, not taking money into consideration, it would be ridiculous trading all that stuff for a 69 game rental of Jovo.

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11-05-2005, 03:03 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boredmale
As Long as Bates makes under a million he probably will resign. Parrish most likely will be the one out, i have a feeling we might resign Kvasha(although at this point it's probably best to let him go).

As for the Canucks trade, not taking money into consideration, it would be ridiculous trading all that stuff for a 69 game rental of Jovo.
I think it would be ridiculous to trade all that for Jovocop even if he was already on an affordable longterm deal. Jovocop simply isn't worth that kind of return - not by a longshot.

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11-05-2005, 05:06 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I think it would be ridiculous to trade all that for Jovocop even if he was already on an affordable longterm deal. Jovocop simply isn't worth that kind of return - not by a longshot.
Sorry Darth, we have to disagree again, but that won't stop us posting will it?

Personally I think Jovo or a true #1 speedy, experienced, offensive D is exactly what the Islanders need along with a lot more. I also think the Isles or at least their fans are living on the potential of the teams young players and that most of that potential will not come to pass. At least not while those players are with the Isles. There have been many recent (last 2 years) rumours of dressing room discention. Players traded from the Isles have spoken poorly of management and how they were treated. The team does not seem to have it's own character as far as a system or style of play is concerned. It seems to change from year to year. Most importantly the players, especially the younger players, have accepted losing as part of the team's growing pains. Losing under any circumstances should not be expected by any player, but the Isles excuse themselves as being young and developing or that the other team is filled with older, experienced players.

The Isles had a fine history, but somehow they have lost the abiltity to relate to the years they used to dominate. Like it or not the team, IMHO, has to rid themselves of every player who makes excuses about losing and replace them with players from winning teams even if it costs you some or all of your young prospects. I also really think you need a coach & GM who won't allow a player on the team that takes a night off. A Sutter type coach or GM. It's pretty bad when the Isles are already being considered in the running for the Kessel sweepstakes and it's only the beginning of November.

As far as Jovo and Cloutier for DePietro and others, I personally don't think the suggestion was that far off, but no matter, the Canucks are #2 in the league right now and don't "need" to trade with anyone. The Isles are 7th from the bottom in the league and tonight you face reality of how good and how much potential your players are when you face Ottawa. Good luck.

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11-05-2005, 05:24 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
As far as Jovo and Cloutier for DePietro and others, I personally don't think the suggestion was that far off, but no matter, the Canucks are #2 in the league right now and don't "need" to trade with anyone. The Isles are 7th from the bottom in the league and tonight you face reality of how good and how much potential your players are when you face Ottawa. Good luck.
here is 2 problems with this trade

1. We would be way over cap

2. (taking out cap implications)If Jovo was signed for a few years it would make sense from an Islanders standpoint. The fact he would be a rental player and probably sign somewhere else, what use is it for us to give up Dipietro and a (1st rounder or O Mara) since he is not the player who will win us the cup

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11-05-2005, 06:04 PM
  #63
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I also think the Isles or at least their fans are living on the potential of the teams young players and that most of that potential will not come to pass. At least not while those players are with the Isles.
and you are an nhl scout for which team?


Quote:
There have been many recent (last 2 years) rumours of dressing room discention.


You must have missed the major roster changes the isles made after the lockout ended.?Some of the players who were let go or dealt were considered to be lockerroom problems and that's why they weren't kept.

Quote:
Players traded from the Isles have spoken poorly of management and how they

Hamrlik wasn't happy being dealt from the Oilers,but it ended up being Hamrlik pushing for a longterm extension.When TB tried trading for him,he gave interviews saying he hoped to stay on LI and sign longterm.Isles were leery of his knee and let him walk.

Niinimaa was upset when he was dealt from Edmonton,but by the end of his first full season,he signed a 3 yr extension,taking him past his ufa date.

Right up until 1-2 days before the ufa signing period,Aucoin's rep was in talks with the isles,trying to reach an agreement.AA was telling the press how he loved it in Garden City and wanted to stay with the nyi.Isles weren't giving him the $4m a yr the hawks offered and he exercised his right to follow the $.

Boston boy DiPietro stayed on LI during the lockout.He's given recent interviews saying he wants to sign longterm.

When the Panthers tried trading for Jonsson.He publicly lobbied in the press to remainto Jonsson.

Parrish is a ufa nect summer.This past summer he and the Isles tried reaching an agreement on a longterm deal.

are those the type of disgruntled ex-isles you're talking about?





Quote:
Most importantly the players, especially the younger players, have accepted losing as part of the team's growing pains.
The last 3 seasons played, the isles have made the playoffs.They've played 13 games this yr.The press reported that when TB eliminated the isles in the 2003-04 playoffs,DiPietro took the loss harder then several vets including Peca,Aucoin,Yashin.Which young Isle has 'accepted losing as part of the team's growing pains'?



Quote:
Losing under any circumstances should not be expected by any player, but the Isles excuse themselves as being young and developing or that the other team is filled with older, experienced players.

You have some quote from the isles players excusing their losing?Cause I'd like to read it.



Quote:
the Canucks are #2 in the league right now and don't "need" to trade with anyone.
Canucks are very likely to lose Jovo as a ufa in 8 months and DiPietro's upside is higher then Cloutiers.I have never been a big Cloutier fan.He plays behind a very strong team and has racked up a nice winning record.I'd still take 24 yr old Diietro over him.

Quote:
The Isles are 7th from the bottom in the league and tonight you face reality of how good and how much potential your players are when you face Ottawa. Good luck
which doesn't change the fact that if the isles fall out of the race,they will be trading older players like impending ufa Parrish.Not young bluechippers like DiPietro and O'Marra.

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11-05-2005, 06:58 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
Sorry Darth, we have to disagree again, but that won't stop us posting will it?

Personally I think Jovo or a true #1 speedy, experienced, offensive D is exactly what the Islanders need along with a lot more. I also think the Isles or at least their fans are living on the potential of the teams young players and that most of that potential will not come to pass. At least not while those players are with the Isles. There have been many recent (last 2 years) rumours of dressing room discention. Players traded from the Isles have spoken poorly of management and how they were treated. The team does not seem to have it's own character as far as a system or style of play is concerned. It seems to change from year to year. Most importantly the players, especially the younger players, have accepted losing as part of the team's growing pains. Losing under any circumstances should not be expected by any player, but the Isles excuse themselves as being young and developing or that the other team is filled with older, experienced players.

The Isles had a fine history, but somehow they have lost the abiltity to relate to the years they used to dominate. Like it or not the team, IMHO, has to rid themselves of every player who makes excuses about losing and replace them with players from winning teams even if it costs you some or all of your young prospects. I also really think you need a coach & GM who won't allow a player on the team that takes a night off. A Sutter type coach or GM. It's pretty bad when the Isles are already being considered in the running for the Kessel sweepstakes and it's only the beginning of November.

As far as Jovo and Cloutier for DePietro and others, I personally don't think the suggestion was that far off, but no matter, the Canucks are #2 in the league right now and don't "need" to trade with anyone. The Isles are 7th from the bottom in the league and tonight you face reality of how good and how much potential your players are when you face Ottawa. Good luck.
Sorry, my friend, but I honestly think that you do not know what you are talking about here. My sense is that you want to believe the Nucks can get Dipietro, etc, so you're making stuff up to support that notion.

Your arguement seems to be that the Isles need to make some dramatic moves because of lockeroom disagreements and because we're all counting on young player who will never develop. So, what exact young players are you talking about? What players are Isles counting on that won't develop?

And, as for this lockeroom problems, other than the rumored dislike between Peca and Yashin, what exactly do you mean? What evidence, other than your own personal impression, do you have that the Isles have problems in the lockerroom?

Also, what players have said bad thing about management after trades?

The Isles may not have a very good team now, but that doesn't mean a one-year rental of Jovocop for that ridiculous package is any more realistic. To be blunt, that was a video game trade, because it was so far from being realistic.

I fail to see how tradding the teams #1 netminder, their best prospect, a number 1 pick, and decent young winger for a bellow average netminder and a overrated impending UFA would alter the "culture of losing". Basically, you're proposing the exact kind of deal that has caused problems for the Isles for years; moving away good young talent for short-term band-aids. This would be even worse than the Yashin, Janne N, and Felix Potvin trades. Just brutal for the Isles.

You're reaching for it, and that was the most unrealistic trade proposal I've seen on this board in many months.


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11-05-2005, 06:59 PM
  #65
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Quote:
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You have some quote from the isles players excusing their losing?Cause I'd like to read it.



.
What irks me about this thread, is how we went from the Isles needing to move some excess depth off the wing for a dman, for the this ridiculous package in which the Isles gut the team to rent Jovocop for a year. Essentially, Hi-wayman proposed a new version of the Yashin, Linden, Felix Potvin deals, and then tried to convince us that the Isles absolutely need to make a deal like that.


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11-06-2005, 11:37 AM
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How about a deal with Florida for Mezei? Is Hunter for Mezei doable?

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11-06-2005, 12:08 PM
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How about a deal with Florida for Mezei? Is Hunter for Mezei doable?
No.

Isles essentially gave away Mezei for nothing because they didn't like aspects of his game. I thought it was a dumb move at the time, and I think it is even worse now. I think he is going to be a solid physical top four for Flordia. But, don't expect the Isles to then turn around and move their best young winger for a player they gave up on a few years earlier.

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11-06-2005, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Quincy
How about a deal with Florida for Mezei? Is Hunter for Mezei doable?

Isles owner wants the cheap youngsters kept.He is the one who kept MM from making Witt or Carney trades at the 2004 deadline,when the Caps and Ducks wanted Weinhandl or Bergenheim.

He pointed out the Torres trade in March 2004,when Torres was on his way to a 20 goal rookie season,asking if nyi fans weren't tired of seeing their youngsters do well elsewhere.If he was unhappy then,he's gotta be grinding his teeth seeing cheap, young Torres with 9 goals so far this season.

If the isles make trades,look for them to trade older,more expensive players,not younger cheaper players like Hunter.

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11-06-2005, 08:14 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
Isles owner wants the cheap youngsters kept.He is the one who kept MM from making Witt or Carney trades at the 2004 deadline,when the Caps and Ducks wanted Weinhandl or Bergenheim.

He pointed out the Torres trade in March 2004,when Torres was on his way to a 20 goal rookie season,asking if nyi fans weren't tired of seeing their youngsters do well elsewhere.If he was unhappy then,he's gotta be grinding his teeth seeing cheap, young Torres with 9 goals so far this season.

If the isles make trades,look for them to trade older,more expensive players,not younger cheaper players like Hunter.
Although, I personally think a Mezei deal for Hunter would be fair. It is just not realistic under the circumstances.

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