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10-27-2011, 03:08 PM
  #26
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would be great if CHL champion join World Club Junior Cup next season. First edition was played in sept in Omsk.

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10-27-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
It is impossible to compare the two leagues now because they don't play each other. The MHL is a brand new league, so it is likely that it falls below the competitive balance of the CHL at this point. At the same time, the fact that Russia won the Subway Series last year for the first time with predominantly MHL players would suggest that the MHL plays at a high level for a new league. Most Russian fans believe that the MHL was a piece of the puzzle that was sorely missing in terms of making big improvements in the quality of Russian junior hockey. Prior to the KHL, Russian juniors had little or no competitive experience unless they were able to make a KHL or RSL roster and gain significant playing time. In a few years, a KHL-CHL World Junior team championship could be a very competitive and interesting matchup.
Realistically the MHL had very little to do with the Subway series success. Rather the approach to selection was simply the main reason for success. I'd also suggest that the MHL hasn't existed long enough to have any significant impact on Russian hockey yet. It obviously will and hopefully it will be very positive, but many of the 90's, 91's and 92's were around before the MHL and thus the new system hasn't really emcompassed all their Junior hockey experience.

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10-27-2011, 04:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Realistically the MHL had very little to do with the Subway series success. Rather the approach to selection was simply the main reason for success. I'd also suggest that the MHL hasn't existed long enough to have any significant impact on Russian hockey yet. It obviously will and hopefully it will be very positive, but many of the 90's, 91's and 92's were around before the MHL and thus the new system hasn't really emcompassed all their Junior hockey experience.
Of course the MHL was too new to be the pre-eminent factor in something like the Subway Series, but it could well have been a factor that made a difference. Major talents like Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, and Kitsyn were playing regularly in the KHL, but the existence of the MHL made it much easier to identify role players like Kalinin, Sergeyev and Voronin who might not be stars, but could help the team win. Without the MHL, guys like that, who wouldn't get ice time in the KHL on a regular basis, could easily fall under the radar. The MHL provides a format for coaches to select prospects who have proven their ability to succeed in competition.

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10-27-2011, 05:55 PM
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what helped Russia win the first subway series ever and the last WJC title - is an incredible team spirit instilled by Bragin, plus fair selection for the NT. I hope Bragin will not be influenced in the coming WJC and will pick the best team possible. ON paper it will possibly be an even better team than last year (deeper up front for sure), but it's really hard to repeat and especially in hostile Western Canadian territory.

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10-28-2011, 04:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
would be great if CHL champion join World Club Junior Cup next season. First edition was played in sept in Omsk.
Hopefully that competition is as appealing to CHL teams as it would be for MHL teams.

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10-29-2011, 02:22 AM
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Hopefully that competition is as appealing to CHL teams as it would be for MHL teams.
not now, but we will see what happen after 4-5 years

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10-29-2011, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Hopefully that competition is as appealing to CHL teams as it would be for MHL teams.
they should bring CHL teams, but it's their problem if they don't.

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10-30-2011, 05:15 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Of course the MHL was too new to be the pre-eminent factor in something like the Subway Series, but it could well have been a factor that made a difference. Major talents like Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, and Kitsyn were playing regularly in the KHL, but the existence of the MHL made it much easier to identify role players like Kalinin, Sergeyev and Voronin who might not be stars, but could help the team win. Without the MHL, guys like that, who wouldn't get ice time in the KHL on a regular basis, could easily fall under the radar. The MHL provides a format for coaches to select prospects who have proven their ability to succeed in competition.
they werent in team Russia

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10-30-2011, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Realistically the MHL had very little to do with the Subway series success. Rather the approach to selection was simply the main reason for success. I'd also suggest that the MHL hasn't existed long enough to have any significant impact on Russian hockey yet. It obviously will and hopefully it will be very positive, but many of the 90's, 91's and 92's were around before the MHL and thus the new system hasn't really emcompassed all their Junior hockey experience.
age group 90 dosnt have any connections to subways 2010.

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10-30-2011, 12:07 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
they werent in team Russia
That's correct. In that context, I was referring to the WJC, not the Subway Series, and my point was that the MHL gives kids the chance to play in competitive situations, and not just gain all of their experience in RSL (formerly) or KHL practices with a bunch of older guys!

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08-21-2012, 03:15 PM
  #36
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By the way I want to clarify that it isnt asif the pyramid starts at MHL and there are no lower tier junior leagues like one might understand from IJK principle. It just works a little different.

Each MHL, VHL, and even non-KHL pyramid teams have something called Schools.

For example Spartak Moscow has its own school where it develops all the players and categorizes them by age.
Usually, the best hockey schools play in the best regional leagues. There are many of those.

A player can be enrolled in one of the schools from the beginning and learn hockey, or be added later on as they get scouted. The classes are sorted by birth year.

As mentioned, the level of the hockey school determines the competitiveness of the league. Although its true that further than birth year and league, there are no other ratings (ex A, AA, AAA, junior C etc.) if a player is exceptional, he can be moved up by a birth year. ('96 born playing with the '95s)

Once a player reaches 17-18, he graduates from the school.
This is where the major Russian problem came in. Upon graduation, players were rarely ready to join the adult RSL(KHL) team this made many quit hockey and drained and wasted alot of youth potential. from 1990's to 2008, it was extremely difficult for 19 year olds to find a place to play, and due to the severe inconvenience, many would quit.

* there were RUS-3 leagues so players could get a spot, but those leagues were unorganized, regional, and ultimately players saw no real point/future in pursuing it around 20yrs old.

The creation of the MHL, the Major Junior counterpart the the CHL, effectively closed this gap.

Upon graduation from the school, a player can go to the same team's MHL club. From there he can try to make the KHL or VHL
Are the schools the same as a sports club in North America - or are they also academic schools that the players have to attend (i.e. can the players attend whatever schools they want and play hockey with the club - or is everyone there together?).

If a player is in their draft year and playing in Russia - are they likely to be playing on an MHL team or will the top players already be playing in the KHL? If, after a player has been drafted, he wants to play in the CHL...can he come here and do so (assuming he's not ready to make the NHL team?).

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08-21-2012, 09:09 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Are the schools the same as a sports club in North America - or are they also academic schools that the players have to attend (i.e. can the players attend whatever schools they want and play hockey with the club - or is everyone there together?).

If a player is in their draft year and playing in Russia - are they likely to be playing on an MHL team or will the top players already be playing in the KHL? If, after a player has been drafted, he wants to play in the CHL...can he come here and do so (assuming he's not ready to make the NHL team?).
Neither. Closest western comparison would be sports academies, where players are recruited at very young age, and along with their age group they go through DUSH school. Kids still go to normal public schools, however they can be exempt from a lot of things to attend tournaments. They play with their year, unless they excel and can play with older competition. They play tournaments.

Often players switch 'schools', for example from Spartak to CSKA if that player is promised a better situation or a coach. Or if daddy can afford better coaches or has better relationships and so on.

Drafting players from MHL or KHL is subjective. Some KHL teams will give MANY more opportunities (usually poorer teams), other teams will barely play their youth at all. So just because a kid plays in MHL, doesn't mean he is not very talented. It could be because of circumstances. Sometimes, in the case of Nichushkin for example, he is a top prospect, but his MHL season was awful due to some circumstances such as coaching.

Finally, it all comes down to contract and team's willingness to let a player go when drafted in NA. If a kid is under contract and his team doesn't want him to leave to CHL- it will not happen. If there is no contract, he may do as he pleases. Sometimes, a player has a contract but the KHL organization may be willing to sell his rights or let him go to NA.

The catch is that kids who want to join MHL are often asked to sign 5 year contracts with KHL organizations.

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08-21-2012, 09:46 PM
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Neither. Closest western comparison would be sports academies, where players are recruited at very young age, and along with their age group they go through DUSH school. Kids still go to normal public schools, however they can be exempt from a lot of things to attend tournaments. They play with their year, unless they excel and can play with older competition. They play tournaments.

Often players switch 'schools', for example from Spartak to CSKA if that player is promised a better situation or a coach. Or if daddy can afford better coaches or has better relationships and so on.

Drafting players from MHL or KHL is subjective. Some KHL teams will give MANY more opportunities (usually poorer teams), other teams will barely play their youth at all. So just because a kid plays in MHL, doesn't mean he is not very talented. It could be because of circumstances. Sometimes, in the case of Nichushkin for example, he is a top prospect, but his MHL season was awful due to some circumstances such as coaching.

Finally, it all comes down to contract and team's willingness to let a player go when drafted in NA. If a kid is under contract and his team doesn't want him to leave to CHL- it will not happen. If there is no contract, he may do as he pleases. Sometimes, a player has a contract but the KHL organization may be willing to sell his rights or let him go to NA.

The catch is that kids who want to join MHL are often asked to sign 5 year contracts with KHL organizations.
Thank you. This is very helpful. I noticed from your post that you're from Toronto - so is being part of a "school" in Russia the same as playing for, say, the Marlboros through their different levels of hockey?

How do you end up on an MHL team - do you just go to who ever takes you or is there some sort of draft?

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08-22-2012, 03:10 AM
  #39
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The catch is that kids who want to join MHL are often asked to sign 5 year contracts with KHL organizations.
just to correct you. Yeah, KHL entry level contract WAS 5 year, but rule was changed. Now, status quo, KHL entry level contract is for 3 years, until a kid is 20. You know, kids are drafted at year when turn 17. This year it was 1995ers.

Lets look at example

A kid played his rookie MHL season, in 11/12 (Ivan Barbashev, born 1995, as example). KHL draft year 2012 (end of 11/12 season) was for kids born 1995. Barbashev was drafted by his club, Dinamo Moscow. He did not sign KHL entry level contract, he moved to CHL this summer.

Similar case with G Serebryakov, but he did not play MHL 11/12, he played in kids league.

F Nichushkin, born 1995, played rookie MHL season in 11/12. Drafted by his club, Traktor. Signed 3-y entry deal, which expires after 14/15 season. Verify here

F Kucherov, born 93, drafted by CSKA in 2010, signed entry level contract, was valid for 12/13 season, but terminated this summer. As you wrote, it depends on club´s will.

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08-22-2012, 08:36 AM
  #40
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just to correct you. Yeah, KHL entry level contract WAS 5 year, but rule was changed. Now, status quo, KHL entry level contract is for 3 years, until a kid is 20. You know, kids are drafted at year when turn 17. This year it was 1995ers.

Lets look at example

A kid played his rookie MHL season, in 11/12 (Ivan Barbashev, born 1995, as example). KHL draft year 2012 (end of 11/12 season) was for kids born 1995. Barbashev was drafted by his club, Dinamo Moscow. He did not sign KHL entry level contract, he moved to CHL this summer.

Similar case with G Serebryakov, but he did not play MHL 11/12, he played in kids league.

F Nichushkin, born 1995, played rookie MHL season in 11/12. Drafted by his club, Traktor. Signed 3-y entry deal, which expires after 14/15 season. Verify here

F Kucherov, born 93, drafted by CSKA in 2010, signed entry level contract, was valid for 12/13 season, but terminated this summer. As you wrote, it depends on club´s will.
Yes, sorry- you're correct about 3 years.

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08-22-2012, 11:02 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by yunost View Post
By the way I want to clarify that it isnt asif the pyramid starts at MHL and there are no lower tier junior leagues like one might understand from IJK principle. It just works a little different.

Each MHL, VHL, and even non-KHL pyramid teams have something called Schools.

For example Spartak Moscow has its own school where it develops all the players and categorizes them by age. Usually, the best hockey schools play in the best regional leagues. There are many of those.

A player can be enrolled in one of the schools from the beginning and learn hockey, or be added later on as they get scouted. The classes are sorted by birth year.

As mentioned, the level of the hockey school determines the competitiveness of the league. Although its true that further than birth year and league, there are no other ratings (ex A, AA, AAA, junior C etc.) if a player is exceptional, he can be moved up by a birth year. ('96 born playing with the '95s)

Once a player reaches 17-18, he graduates from the school.
This is where the major Russian problem came in. Upon graduation, players were rarely ready to join the adult RSL(KHL) team this made many quit hockey and drained and wasted alot of youth potential. from 1990's to 2008, it was extremely difficult for 19 year olds to find a place to play, and due to the severe inconvenience, many would quit.

* there were RUS-3 leagues so players could get a spot, but those leagues were unorganized, regional, and ultimately players saw no real point/future in pursuing it around 20yrs old.

The creation of the MHL, the Major Junior counterpart the the CHL, effectively closed this gap.

Upon graduation from the school, a player can go to the same team's MHL club. From there he can try to make the KHL or VHL
In Canada, you have various organized leagues below the CHL level. As was stated above, there is no equivalent to Midget, Bantam, Pee Wee and so on in Russia. You just have the hockey schools. They play regional tournaments, but don't have ongoing league competition like you have in the younger age groups. This is a disadvantage for Russia in the sense that a smaller percentage of kids get the opportunity to demonstrate their talent and potential, although you could also say that the good hockey schools do a better job of teaching hockey skills than playing for a team coached by a volunteer dad. There is interest in Russia in expanding the range of hockey leagues to uncover and develop more talent, but I doubt if there is much interest in de-emphasizing the role of the hockey school.

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08-22-2012, 11:46 AM
  #42
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is there any info about the U18 league organized by the federation? a web-site, anything at all? or is it just a new name to the 95 born regional tournaments?

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08-22-2012, 12:20 PM
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is there any info about the U18 league organized by the federation? a web-site, anything at all? or is it just a new name to the 95 born regional tournaments?
not easy to get info, I have just this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBVnAsGKHWE&feature=plcp

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08-22-2012, 02:03 PM
  #44
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Thank you. This is very helpful. I noticed from your post that you're from Toronto - so is being part of a "school" in Russia the same as playing for, say, the Marlboros through their different levels of hockey?

How do you end up on an MHL team - do you just go to who ever takes you or is there some sort of draft?
I've heard of the Malrboros, but I'm not very familiar with their system. I would think that it may be similiar, but the practice / games ratio would be vastly different of a traditional Russian hockey school to any NA organizations. Especially at younger ages.

There is no Draft to get into MHL. Simple tryouts from local schools, or invitees from others. The coach selects the players. Unfortunately on some teams, some spots can be bought by parents or politics. These players usually speak for themselves with their poor stats and don't make it further than MHL. Having said that, coaches usually won't turn down clearly talented players.

To a much smaller extent, some teams in Toronto and probably Canada are big boys clubs and their sons have an easier time getting on the team. Although it's really miniscule problem compared to the corruption in Rus jr leagues.

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08-30-2012, 04:42 AM
  #45
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Are the schools the same as a sports club in North America - or are they also academic schools that the players have to attend (i.e. can the players attend whatever schools they want and play hockey with the club - or is everyone there together?).

If a player is in their draft year and playing in Russia - are they likely to be playing on an MHL team or will the top players already be playing in the KHL? If, after a player has been drafted, he wants to play in the CHL...can he come here and do so (assuming he's not ready to make the NHL team?).
1. There is no common system about the schools now. Every franchise manages it's own school differently. They have similar pattern though.

2. I know how it works in Kazan. The kids live at the "base". A big complex owned by the AkBars franchise with accomodation facilities for kids from the hockey school and the big team too(before game day the big team's normally stays there, some players, especially foreign players live there), a hotel, a hockey rink, training and recreation facilities. All kids from the hockey school go to the same public school. It's a normal public school though.

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09-18-2013, 01:34 AM
  #46
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What i am sayinis that the Subway Series COULD have been a clear measure of how competitive the MHL on average would be vs. CHL teams on average-BUT given all the muddle because of potential KHL Jrs and CHL russian Jrs added plus the possibility of "OVER-AVERAGING"the MHL by including lots of Magnitogorsk 19 and 20 year old stars -we probaly will not take away a clear picture assessment of the actual average level of play of the MHL to compare to what we think s the average level of play in the 3 CHL leagues.


So how good is the MHL? WE just can't say.

WE could say how god is Magnitogorsk -IF they just sent ONLY that entire team to play in the Subway Series-but they won't so we can't know that either.


All we can say is that Magnitogorsk is head and shoulders above the average or median level of play in the MHL -it is a SUPER TEAM for that one league (at least this year it is). Perhaps all the other 31 MHL teams would be near the bottom of any of the 3 CHL leagues ...but all-star team from those 31 other MHL teams could produce 1 roster squad that might be very competitive or even tops in any of the 3 CHL leagues,but that is theoretical). So the suspicion will remain that most of those 31 other MHL teams would fare poorly in any of the 3 CHL leagues --we just do not have the structure to prove otherwise so the bias that the CHL leagues are the best Jr. leagues depth -wise is going to prevail until proven otherwise.

Otherwise we are just doing a lot of guessing.
I know this is an old thread.

Something that you've passed on, is that the MHL has 40 teams, while each CHL league has ~20. And that the SSS that comes over, in addition to having the Russian CHL players, is also only playing the all-star team of each league, not the all-star team the CHL put together (basically the WJC team).

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09-18-2013, 02:53 AM
  #47
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I know this is an old thread.

Something that you've passed on, is that the MHL has 40 teams, while each CHL league has ~20. And that the SSS that comes over, in addition to having the Russian CHL players, is also only playing the all-star team of each league, not the all-star team the CHL put together (basically the WJC team).

But the Russian SSS team isn't an MHL all-star team either.

In years past the federation sent over a collection of crappy ad hoc players. However recently (starting under Bragin) the tourneys been used to test WJC candidates.
But also note that many of the WJC candidates would not make a hypothetical MHL all star team.


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