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Old
10-14-2011, 08:39 AM
  #51
cska78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont understand it now.. why he decided for moving. Look, you stay in MHL-KHL system and:

1. you play this season MHL (he would play as you say)
2. you are at home, with family and friends, and got money for playing (how much money does he earn in NA?)
3. you can play KHL next season (ok, CSKA has many youngs who are two, three years elder than him - so, maybe not a place for him)
4. you can be drafted in NHL - look at Kuznetsov and Tarasenko, Orlov, Bobrovsky (was not drafted? I dont know, but plays NHL)
5. you can move to NHL.. look at Orlov, Bobrovsky, in future Tarasenko, Kuznetsov
6. what is level of USHL compared to MHL.. is it there such a big difference?

I see that dream of players is NHL and they do all for achieving it. But is such an early moving the best way how to achieve it? If you are good enough you can get nhl spot at your 20, 22...and what is most important in my eyes: when you move to NA after playing in KHL, you will have bigger status in eyes of NHL GMs then such a young kid who can be solid prospect but nothing more... I can give you many examples when good prospect failed after moving.

I completely understand this early moving from slovak clubs where everything sucks, but from sweden and russia? No, I am against that. I have no long term reason for doing that.
Maybe I could see Diskushin if he was 5th, 6th best prospect of CSKA 95.. it would mean he would have problem to get a spot in MHL.. but if he is best... dont see.
you are preaching to the quire - I agree with you. Now we will loose them (Dikushin/Vorob'ev) completely as CSKA-95 is stacked with major talent and there's no reason to protect them at draft as they are already gone to NA. Someone will draft them though in the KHL - and we have lost 2 best prospects.

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10-14-2011, 08:49 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
you are preaching to the quire - I agree with you. Now we will loose them (Dikushin/Vorob'ev) completely as CSKA-95 is stacked with major talent and there's no reason to protect them at draft as they are already gone to NA. Someone will draft them though in the KHL - and we have lost 2 best prospects.
I dont see any problem if another KHL club draft them. I am not such a big fan of CSKA. It would be great if they come back next season.

IMO CSKA will protect goalie Volkov, F Tolchintsky and another one guy.
Maybe they will try to get more picks..

Where is Vorob'ev?

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10-14-2011, 09:35 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont see any problem if another KHL club draft them. I am not such a big fan of CSKA. It would be great if they come back next season.

IMO CSKA will protect goalie Volkov, F Tolchintsky and another one guy.
Maybe they will try to get more picks..

Where is Vorob'ev?
Vorob'ev - same league as Dikushin, but another team, check the elitprospects. Yes, Atlant has crap school, they draft whoever CSKA couldn't protect: Levitskiy being the last one. Kramskoy got drafted - as CSKA couldn't protect him by Severstal', but now playing in Loko.

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10-14-2011, 01:48 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Vorob'ev - same league as Dikushin, but another team, check the elitprospects. Yes, Atlant has crap school, they draft whoever CSKA couldn't protect: Levitskiy being the last one. Kramskoy got drafted - as CSKA couldn't protect him by Severstal', but now playing in Loko.
where can I find stats from russian kids leagues? what leagues, what regional leagues, what teams etc. Or can anybody explain how it works in Russian in this age? I know they are leagues by year - 95, 96 etc but I have little info how it is devided by regions.. I know there is federal championship at the end of season, cca 8 teams.. are they winners of regional leagues?

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10-14-2011, 02:36 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
where can I find stats from russian kids leagues? what leagues, what regional leagues, what teams etc. Or can anybody explain how it works in Russian in this age? I know they are leagues by year - 95, 96 etc but I have little info how it is devided by regions.. I know there is federal championship at the end of season, cca 8 teams.. are they winners of regional leagues?
http://hockey.penza.net/

this site is a relic, not very professional, but one can find ways around it.

http://hockey.penza.net/menu.asp?razdel=3&language=r

this link takes directly to what you are asking.

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10-14-2011, 02:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
It is crazy to move by 15!!! This is only kid not adult. I would ban this moving. There is a little chance this move help him from hockey point of view. There is also 90% chance it wont help him by personal/social point of view. He wont live with his family (ok, mum can travel with him) and friends.. is it bad for him. Kids of his age should think hockey is fun not bussiness.

on other hand I can understand him, CSKA has so many good prospects born 95 so he could play only in kids league not MHL. Second factor is NHL draft.. sorry guys I will never understand it. why the hell should I move to NA before drafting? If I am good, I will be drafted.. look at Tarasenko and Kuznetsov.. any problem? They can move when they want. And when they move they will play 1st line not AHL
Of course you are right! Such a move at his age has a far greater potential to retard his development than to enhance it. These kids think that as soon as the NHL scouts see them, they will fall in love, and then they will be the next Datsyuk or Ovechkin.

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10-14-2011, 02:52 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Of course you are right! Such a move at his age has a far greater potential to retard his development than to enhance it. These kids think that as soon as the NHL scouts see them, they will fall in love, and then they will be the next Datsyuk or Ovechkin.
sad story.. IMO it is wrong thinking..but their carreer.. what can we do? nothing..

cska78 thx

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10-14-2011, 05:32 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
sad story.. IMO it is wrong thinking..but their carreer.. what can we do? nothing..

cska78 thx
np, I am glad someone else is interested in this, even if for work.

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10-14-2011, 05:43 PM
  #59
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The amount of kids moving to NA at a young age is usually a reflection of the state of the national programme/development system. The more seemingly broken the infrastructure is, the more kids will be inclined to leave. Yes, Russian young players probably shouldn't be moving at such an age (and of course the lure of the NHL is partly to blame), but why are they moving? It's the federations job to stop this from happening, and the way to do that is to improve your own system. Clearly there are still widespread issues, otherwise such an exodus would not be happening.

Look at other European hockey "powers". Czechs and Slovaks see nearly all their best products leave at a young age, and this reflects on the declining state of their system. Whilst Sweden by and large is witnessing the reverse. The majority of the best Finnish products also stay at home and develop.

Something is clearly broken if so many kids keep leaving.

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10-14-2011, 06:12 PM
  #60
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J17 Vs Proclamation

agree with part about slovakia. Everything sucks here, nobody cares.

Sweden has great programm and many prospects leaves.. why?
Russia - I see one problem in NHL draft- kid wants to be drafted but if they stay in KHL/MHL system, their chances gets down in eyes of NHL GM. (at least kids can think that)

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10-14-2011, 07:34 PM
  #61
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The future, Fulcrum?


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Old
10-15-2011, 04:10 AM
  #62
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Another interview that all 15-years-old wannabes should read: http://mhl.khl.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=8498

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Old
10-16-2011, 04:00 AM
  #63
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I think Russia is slowly reversing the trend, thanks to MHL/VHL/KHL efforts. FHR can do more (youth tournaments, cleaning corruption), and over time, I think they will have no choice.

Also, the current generation of older "Soviet(corrupt)" style FHR controllers will begin to phase out as younger management background people will step in, with the help of Medvedev and Fetisov. Hopefully like the Efimov guy of the MHL.

Important factor for at least a few players is that Russian youth get paid more than they would playing in N.A. It's not much, but it may matter to some. And considering the level of life in some parts of Russia, it could be an important factor.

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10-16-2011, 11:13 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
The amount of kids moving to NA at a young age is usually a reflection of the state of the national programme/development system. The more seemingly broken the infrastructure is, the more kids will be inclined to leave. Yes, Russian young players probably shouldn't be moving at such an age (and of course the lure of the NHL is partly to blame), but why are they moving? It's the federations job to stop this from happening, and the way to do that is to improve your own system. Clearly there are still widespread issues, otherwise such an exodus would not be happening.

Look at other European hockey "powers". Czechs and Slovaks see nearly all their best products leave at a young age, and this reflects on the declining state of their system. Whilst Sweden by and large is witnessing the reverse. The majority of the best Finnish products also stay at home and develop.

Something is clearly broken if so many kids keep leaving.
Good points! Whether it applies to Russia at this time is open to question, but in Sweden and Finland, they have very good and well-funded programs that give them an opportunity to develop. If they become elite, then maybe the NHL will draft them and make them a great offer. If not, they can stay in Sweden and Finland and earn a decent living and play high level hockey. This is what many people are suggesting that Russian youth players should consider.

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10-26-2011, 09:44 AM
  #65
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http://www.allhockey.ru/news/108498/

roster for the world hockey challenge in Can

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10-26-2011, 10:13 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
http://www.allhockey.ru/news/108498/

roster for the world hockey challenge in Can
Do you think it's a fair roster? Or are there a few passengers?

It's hard to believe that Shmelev doesn't get a call... I also think Tolchinskiy is worthy, even as underager.

It was sad to see that U18 was very corrupt last year.

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10-26-2011, 12:10 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Do you think it's a fair roster? Or are there a few passengers?

It's hard to believe that Shmelev doesn't get a call... I also think Tolchinskiy is worthy, even as underager.

It was sad to see that U18 was very corrupt last year.
it seems to me the tounrament is u17 not u18 and Shmelev doesn't fit....arent' the players 94-95?

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10-26-2011, 12:11 PM
  #68
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as far as the corrupt status of last year's u18 - for sure, players like Ibatulin and Sabinin are the worst in their MHL teams, least to say on any type of NT. Ivanyzhenkov is nowhere to be seen.

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10-26-2011, 07:32 PM
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Bulilyletdinov released a prelim roster for kar cup and i love it - bunch of hounger gyues. Not all of them desrve it today but hey!!!! Better than bringing the vets

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10-27-2011, 11:02 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Bulilyletdinov released a prelim roster for kar cup and i love it - bunch of hounger gyues. Not all of them desrve it today but hey!!!! Better than bringing the vets
I agree! Clearly, some of the guys on the WC team this spring played as if they considered themselves to be entitled, rather than hungry. I think Bilyaletdinov should make it known that every roster spot is open for competition, and young guys will be selected over the old vets if they are talented and show more hunger.

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10-27-2011, 12:16 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I agree! Clearly, some of the guys on the WC team this spring played as if they considered themselves to be entitled, rather than hungry. I think Bilyaletdinov should make it known that every roster spot is open for competition, and young guys will be selected over the old vets if they are talented and show more hunger.
the Russia-2 team roster has been released and it's also young. luv it.

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10-30-2011, 05:55 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
The amount of kids moving to NA at a young age is usually a reflection of the state of the national programme/development system. The more seemingly broken the infrastructure is, the more kids will be inclined to leave.
this have nothing to do with it! infrastructure is in way better contitions than it was during the 90-s or in early 21 century(top prospects mostly stayed in Russia back then) and development system is getting on the feet again but there is other reasons for it - they(kids and their parents) are afraid that they will be not noticed by NA scouts and because of no agreement deal they will be drafted only in late rounds or not get drafted at all. In other words CHL is the place where they can show how passionate they can be and how madly they wanna be in NHL!


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10-30-2011, 07:01 AM
  #73
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as far as the corrupt status of last year's u18 - for sure, players like Ibatulin and Sabinin are the worst in their MHL teams, least to say on any type of NT. Ivanyzhenkov is nowhere to be seen.
I remember specifically watching these guys during U18, they looked like they could play in my beer league on friday nights and would still struggle.

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10-30-2011, 07:57 AM
  #74
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this have nothing to do with it! infrastructure is in way better contitions than it was during the 90-s or in early 21 century(top prospects mostly stayed in Russia back then) and development system is getting on the feet again but there is other reasons for it - they(kids and their parents) are afraid that they will be not noticed by NA scouts and because of no agreement deal they will be drafted only in late rounds or not get drafted at all. In other words CHL is the place where they can show how passionate they can be and how madly they wanna be in NHL!
I agree...
I mean look at how many players were drafted from Sweden last year and how many from Russia? I think, in these days, they draft more kids from Swedish J20 Superelit/Elitserien than from any top CHL league.... and like 4-5 from MHL/KHL. Is there really a problem with talent in Russia? Don't think so... Yes, maybe there are not as much draft worthy players as Sweden as but surely the correlation shouldn't be 28 Swedes and 9 Russians, or like last year 20 ->8....

In 2003 there were 30 Russians and 18 Swedes drafted, in 2005 12 Swedes 11 Russians... I don't think the problem is diminishing Russia's talent, the problem is that NHL vs KHL thing.... and young players know that

On the one hand it's maybe even good for the KHL as more talent is not drafted and stays in Russia but for kids and their NHL dream it's pretty bad. People run away from home not only because of infrastructure and hockey programm but because they feel no one will notice them at home.... That's the main reason why all young Latvians run the hell away from Latvia at 15-16. At the moment they have plenty of opportunities in Latvia, Dinamo Riga system 1997, 1995 borns play in St. Petersburg championship, there's a MHL club etc. but they still leave.....

I dot think the quality of CSKA coaches was why Grigorenko and others left... I believe they left because Grigorenko thought if he stays in Russia, he might be drafted in the second or third round like it usually is... or at nr. 20, not 2-5.....

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10-30-2011, 08:29 AM
  #75
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I agree...
That's the main reason why all young Latvians run the hell away from Latvia at 15-16.
I don't agree. IMO main reason why players leave Latvia is because most of our youth coaches are gash. Our players are OK until the age of,say 14-15, but then they drop of the map because of their lack of physical strenght and work ethic. Our hockey system still have the soviet mindset which undervalues physical side of the game. I fully support the players like Girgensons and Egle when they leave for North America. Spending few years in NA hockey environment will help them round out their game, making them better players and eventually help them make a living out of hockey.

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