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Old
10-29-2003, 06:38 AM
  #26
Enoch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22


If we were making a comparison between the two bluelines, it would be like the Avs having to play Blake-Skoula, Tomas Slovak-DJ Smith, and Brett Clark-Mikko Viitanen. Do you find that appealing? I sure as hell don't. I'm not saying the Avs haven't been hit hard by injuries, but I am saying I would take their injuries over the Blues.
This is only if we trade injuries. The blues have much better depth defensemen then the Avs do, so that analagy is invalid.

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10-29-2003, 08:17 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Well, I'm not gonna fully defend Lacroix, because I'll admit, I'm still a little fuzzy on why the Reinprecht trade went down. But he surely felt a little more solid having a healthy Marek Svatos around as well as Brian Willsie--both could be considered top 6 talent.

I haven't seen Willsie play in over a year, but last time he was around for an extended duration he essentially was a top 6 forward -- heck, he was the Avs best forward for a few games.

And Svatos, although unproven was labelled by many (including yourself I believe) as being strictly top-6 talent, and therefore should be sent down to the AHL for the time being.

Ideally Reinprecht would have been better to be bumped up to the top 6, but I don't think PL expected to lose both Svatos and Willsie so soon (well, maybe just Svatos).
I'm one of the select few that liked Willsie, but it's pretty certain that he wouldn't have been put in a top 6 role either. Not that he couldn't do it; more like he had fallen out of favor with the organization. I don't believe Granato would have used Willsie as a top 6 replacement for a second.

As for Svatos, that is hindsight. Going into camp, no one thought Svatos would make the team and I certainly don't think it's reasonable to believe that PL had so much confidence in Svatos to be that tweener kind of guy this season to justify trading away Reinprecht. After seeing Svatos, he is a top 6 talent. No doubt about it. But, when the Reinprecht deal happened, Svatos was likely not even considered to be Reinprecht's replacement; I don't see how PL could have known that Svatos would play that well with any certainty.

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10-29-2003, 08:22 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
Rhino's game is relatively one deminsional. He was relatively invisible last night and seems to always be absent from big plays in the playoffs. He's got great speed and can make a shot on the rush but the rest of his game is not that impressive. On the other hand you can obtain a defenseman prospect who might be able to do top four duty, especially down the road when Blake and or Foote is gone. Considering where the Avs were pre-injury and pre-waiver draft I still like the deal.
You mean outside of his breakaway and near penalty shot chance right?

Relate his game to Battaglia and Konowalchuk and tell me you'd rather have one of those two over Reinprecht in a top 6 role.

I'm also trying to point out to those that didn't care about giving away Johansson to acquire a short-term need that that is exactly what happened with the Reinprecht deal, except in reverse. PL sacrificed a short-term need for a prospect.

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10-29-2003, 08:31 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
I'm one of the select few that liked Willsie, but it's pretty certain that he wouldn't have been put in a top 6 role either. Not that he couldn't do it; more like he had fallen out of favor with the organization. I don't believe Granato would have used Willsie as a top 6 replacement for a second.

As for Svatos, that is hindsight. Going into camp, no one thought Svatos would make the team and I certainly don't think it's reasonable to believe that PL had so much confidence in Svatos to be that tweener kind of guy this season to justify trading away Reinprecht. After seeing Svatos, he is a top 6 talent. No doubt about it. But, when the Reinprecht deal happened, Svatos was likely not even considered to be Reinprecht's replacement; I don't see how PL could have known that Svatos would play that well with any certainty.
Good points. I guess PL is trying to cover some of his losses after all these years of trading away his talent. Then again, he just traded Jonas so I really have no idea what he is doing....

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Old
10-29-2003, 08:43 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
This is only if we trade injuries. The blues have much better depth defensemen then the Avs do, so that analagy is invalid.
Invalid? How so?

The Blues had/have MacInnis, Jackman, Salvador, Khavanov out of their top 7 injured. Leaving only Pronger (the #1), Baron (the #5), and Finley (the #7) to play. Laflamme is the #8 and he's also injured. Koivisto is the #9 and I believe he was hurt in Worcester before the Blues even started their season; I'm not 100% on Koivisto, but he hasn't played a single game this year. The Blues were using Backman (#10 on the depth chart), Brimanis (#11), and Stuart (#12). If the Avs blueline was as hard hit as the Blues has been, that is exactly the type of players the Avs would be playing (give or take the actual Avs defenseman's position on the depth chart). It's a perfectly valid theoretical comparison.

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10-29-2003, 08:50 AM
  #31
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And while we're in a thread about Stephens, it's fair to say that he had a very good game last night. Very nice assist on Cummins' goal especially.

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10-29-2003, 08:54 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
You mean outside of his breakaway and near penalty shot chance right?

Relate his game to Battaglia and Konowalchuk and tell me you'd rather have one of those two over Reinprecht in a top 6 role.

I'm also trying to point out to those that didn't care about giving away Johansson to acquire a short-term need that that is exactly what happened with the Reinprecht deal, except in reverse. PL sacrificed a short-term need for a prospect.

Wilsie and Aubin had 1 year deals, where was the short term need?

Wilsie, Aubin, Battaglia, Worrell, Nikolishin, Hinote, Hahl, and Larsen were the legitimate 3rd/4th liners available going into training camp. That's six forwards with one healthy scratch and two more sent down to Hershey. Add to this list the other longshots going into camp:

Stephens, Krestanovich, Moore.

Then add the suprise players:

Cummins, McCormick, and Svatos.

I don't see how you can reasonably assume that PL was thin at forward and that the Rhino deal was detrimental to the team at the time. Are you proposing that NHL clubs have 2nd line talent that always players in the 3rd line and can jump in? I think I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. 11 forwards not counting Cummins, McCormick and Svatos were battling for six positions. In hindsight toss in those three and we got 14 forwards for six positions, maybe seven with a scratch. Hell, now we can toss in Brigley who no one expected to be here, let alone play well.

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Old
10-29-2003, 12:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
I don't see how you can reasonably assume that PL was thin at forward and that the Rhino deal was detrimental to the team at the time. Are you proposing that NHL clubs have 2nd line talent that always players in the 3rd line and can jump in? I think I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. 11 forwards not counting Cummins, McCormick and Svatos were battling for six positions. In hindsight toss in those three and we got 14 forwards for six positions, maybe seven with a scratch. Hell, now we can toss in Brigley who no one expected to be here, let alone play well.
No, I'm not proposing that every club do that, but when the Avs had a player like Reinprecht that can fill in for the top 6 and play well on the 3rd line, why weaken the depth? Is it reasonable to believe that the Avs wouldn't suffer any injuries to their top 6 over the course of the year? I don't think it is. As such, who, outside of Reinprecht, was capable of stepping up? We've both seen how ineffective guys like Battaglia, Konowalchuk, and even Hinote have been when playing a top 6 role. When Reinprecht was dealt, there was no stud rookie ready to force his way into the line-up that PL could fall back on in case of a top 6 injury. There was no grinder with the ability to step up to that role either.

Sure, PL had a logjam of forwards; I understand that. But, dealing Reinprecht for a prospect is why you see the Avs back to a one line team after the injury to Kariya. Reinprecht was someone you could insert up there without losing a lot of offense. Battaglia and Konowalchuk couldn't be placed in those roles and succeed. So, as long as PL already has a Reinprecht that can be a serviceable top 6 fill in and also play a solid all-around 3rd line game, what's the point of dealing him for a prospect and then wondering why there's no one that can work with Sakic when one guy gets hurt?

The list of players you listed are all bottom 6 players at this time and it's why the Avs are able to cope with the rash of injuries the bottom 6 has suffered so far. Kariya goes down and no one can provide a reasonable amount of offense to the 2nd line. Then Selanne goes down and there is no one that can provide a reasonable amount of offense to the 2nd line. That's my point. PL had a guy that worked reasonably well with Sakic in Reinprecht, but dealt him for a prospect and now there's no one that can step up to a top 6 role and not look like he's over his head. Reinprecht was definitely replaceable, but PL didn't replace him. Reinprecht could play on any line and play any position on a line, which is what made Reinprecht a valuable depth player and is what made him more valuable than guys like Battaglia, Aubin, Willsie, etc. PL weakened his top-end depth by trading away Reinprecht and not getting back anything that could fill his role.

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Old
10-29-2003, 12:38 PM
  #34
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Which would be the better fit to take an injury fill in role on this current team? and play a regular checkline role when people are healthy.

Darcy Tucker

Nik Sundstrom

Scott Thornton


???

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Old
10-29-2003, 12:57 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
No, I'm not proposing that every club do that, but when the Avs had a player like Reinprecht that can fill in for the top 6 and play well on the 3rd line, why weaken the depth? Is it reasonable to believe that the Avs wouldn't suffer any injuries to their top 6 over the course of the year? I don't think it is. As such, who, outside of Reinprecht, was capable of stepping up? We've both seen how ineffective guys like Battaglia, Konowalchuk, and even Hinote have been when playing a top 6 role. When Reinprecht was dealt, there was no stud rookie ready to force his way into the line-up that PL could fall back on in case of a top 6 injury. There was no grinder with the ability to step up to that role either.

Sure, PL had a logjam of forwards; I understand that. But, dealing Reinprecht for a prospect is why you see the Avs back to a one line team after the injury to Kariya. Reinprecht was someone you could insert up there without losing a lot of offense. Battaglia and Konowalchuk couldn't be placed in those roles and succeed. So, as long as PL already has a Reinprecht that can be a serviceable top 6 fill in and also play a solid all-around 3rd line game, what's the point of dealing him for a prospect and then wondering why there's no one that can work with Sakic when one guy gets hurt?

The list of players you listed are all bottom 6 players at this time and it's why the Avs are able to cope with the rash of injuries the bottom 6 has suffered so far. Kariya goes down and no one can provide a reasonable amount of offense to the 2nd line. Then Selanne goes down and there is no one that can provide a reasonable amount of offense to the 2nd line. That's my point. PL had a guy that worked reasonably well with Sakic in Reinprecht, but dealt him for a prospect and now there's no one that can step up to a top 6 role and not look like he's over his head. Reinprecht was definitely replaceable, but PL didn't replace him. Reinprecht could play on any line and play any position on a line, which is what made Reinprecht a valuable depth player and is what made him more valuable than guys like Battaglia, Aubin, Willsie, etc. PL weakened his top-end depth by trading away Reinprecht and not getting back anything that could fill his role.

Fair enough. But, the Avs top six at the time were no ordinary top six. The Avs have had success in the past by plugging guys in like a Neimenen. Other NHL teams have guys much worse on their second lines. Yes, in retrospect it would be nice to have him right now but think about who the Avs would have had to scratch or litterally give away in order to keep Rhino in the lineup (and have to deal with signing him again). I don't think Sakic's issues can be blamed much futher than Sakic himself in several respects. One person on the 2nd line shouldn't hamstring it into ineffectiveness. We could never have a guy like Ballard in two years without making a deal like this. Later for a more immediate fix of that calibure of player the Avs would have to pay a much higher price. How was PL going to unload a forward from the bottom six calibur players I listed? Especially those with contracts the following year? PL is always given a hard time for his sacrifice tomorrow for today philosophies but in this case he did the opposit and I think it's a good sign. Selanne and Sakic with a scrub as their 3rd should still be able to light it up with their talent and resume.

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