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Hockey in Europe and growth

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Old
10-26-2011, 01:10 PM
  #101
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobo View Post
S E P H, you got to stop thinking Hockey will ever work in Europe (except in the few odd countries already mentioned). You think France could become a hockey nation. I'm sorry to dissapoint you, France has a national league (Ligue Magnus) since the early 20th century. Most of those teams were founded pre-1967, the year of the first NHL-expansion. And still, most of the teams play for 4 or 500 spectators, sometimes even less. Why would the 21th century be any different?

And you talk about Kopitar, one Slovene who made it to the NHL. Waaw, that's not a good argument. There's one Belgian guy playing in QMJHL, does that mean there will be more following and that hockey's becoming popular? off course not, that's just luck.
Hockey works in Europe. Not sure why this rather ignorant misconception of hockey being small in Europe exists. Outside of Football, it is arguably the 2nd biggest team sport in Europe. If it isn't 2nd, it is certainly close. It's popular in a number of countries. People seem to have this concept that for a sport to be defined as popular and mainstream it has to be popular everywhere. This simple isn't the case. The only sport which is popular continent wide is Football. Sports like Rugby, Basketball, Handball, Field hockey, Water Polo etc are not popular everywhere. Many don't have the same following as hockey and certainly none of them really possess the same financial power and success that hockey does IMO.

Your second point is equally as naive. As few as 80 years ago, the pre-eminent sports in North American were baseball, boxing and horse racing. Clearly not the case anymore. Just because it's the 21st century doesn't mean things cant change. On the contrary, the success of any given sport is susceptible to change, whether it descends from financial misgivings/rewards, changing in geographic demographics, changes in technological advancements, evolution of the sport itself or simply it randomly becomes more appealing/governing bodies of the sport become more efficient. Things change and sport is no different. In 50 years time, the sporting landscape will look different. Suggesting that hockey cannot change it's own fate and success in the future is naive and simply dumb.

Europe has a strong hockey culture. Yes, hockey has stagnated in the last 15 years. The talent produced by European nations is suffering and there is cause for concern. Yet in Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic and Slovakia we see a strong infinity for hockey. Switzerland is witnessing a strong hockey surge. Belarus is witnessing a long but promising building of hockey infrastructure. Germany has solid hockey roots (admittedly regionalized). Hockey traditions exist in many other European nations. It's not like places like Italy, France, Austria don't have programmes. They do, and there is potential there (not to be powerhouses, but to be notable actors in the hockey arena).

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10-26-2011, 01:28 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Haha, that's actually exactly what I was thinking when I wrote the post!

Fact is, with Sweden as an example, the majority here would prefer to qualify for the football world cup (since it's actually hard in Europe), before winning olympic hockey gold any day.
I don't like your attidude, what really is your problem? some people thinks that hockey could be a big sport or have potential to be 2nd sport in europe. I think all the optimism is good if were speaking about hockey growth in europe and you're just bashing them... I think you're just a football fan trolling around here. and last for sure football is the bigger sport in Europe.
I think in Finland, Latvia and Belarus icehockey is the no.1 sport, and its quite a big or 2nd sport in Sweden, Russia, Slovakia, Czech, Switzerland. Maybe in Germany, Slovenia, Denmarki and Norway too

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10-26-2011, 01:36 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Hockey works in Europe. Not sure why this rather ignorant misconception of hockey being small in Europe exists. Outside of Football, it is arguably the 2nd biggest team sport in Europe. If it isn't 2nd, it is certainly close. It's popular in a number of countries. People seem to have this concept that for a sport to be defined as popular and mainstream it has to be popular everywhere. This simple isn't the case. The only sport which is popular continent wide is Football. Sports like Rugby, Basketball, Handball, Field hockey, Water Polo etc are not popular everywhere. Many don't have the same following as hockey and certainly none of them really possess the same financial power and success that hockey does IMO.

Your second point is equally as naive. As few as 80 years ago, the pre-eminent sports in North American were baseball, boxing and horse racing. Clearly not the case anymore. Just because it's the 21st century doesn't mean things cant change. On the contrary, the success of any given sport is susceptible to change, whether it descends from financial misgivings/rewards, changing in geographic demographics, changes in technological advancements, evolution of the sport itself or simply it randomly becomes more appealing/governing bodies of the sport become more efficient. Things change and sport is no different. In 50 years time, the sporting landscape will look different. Suggesting that hockey cannot change it's own fate and success in the future is naive and simply dumb.

Europe has a strong hockey culture. Yes, hockey has stagnated in the last 15 years. The talent produced by European nations is suffering and there is cause for concern. Yet in Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic and Slovakia we see a strong infinity for hockey. Switzerland is witnessing a strong hockey surge. Belarus is witnessing a long but promising building of hockey infrastructure. Germany has solid hockey roots (admittedly regionalized). Hockey traditions exist in many other European nations. It's not like places like Italy, France, Austria don't have programmes. They do, and there is potential there (not to be powerhouses, but to be notable actors in the hockey arena).
This. Glad someone with better english skills declared this for those whiny and bitter swedish football fans.

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10-26-2011, 01:42 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by cheerupmurray View Post

On a sidenote, hockey is in a good place in Sweden, getting lots of media attention, have ok attendence numbers and good tv-ratings. It's the nr.2 sport in the countrie in terms of what sport people care about. The national team continues to be very popular. Handball is popular in some towns and is much cheaper to play than hockey. It would be hard to seriously make a argument that it's more popular than hockey in Sweden though. The media attention and the attendence figures for the Handball-league isn't even comparable to the hockey-league.
Ok attendance? Last time I heard SEL had higher overall attendance than your soccer league. Same with Allsvenskan hockey vs second soccer league.

Is this not true?

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10-26-2011, 01:54 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
I don't think many people said handball is even close to hockey. I would say floorball (innebandy) is more popular than handball at the moment too. But one would be CRAZY to deny that when the handball national team goes far, it gets a TON of coverage, and especially when we had our golden age as mentioned, it was competing with hockey in TV ratings for the big tournaments.

(And as I said before, I live in the Swedish handball metropole, where we have no other pro teams than 4 handball teams, 2 men 2 women )
To be honest, media decides what people will watch.

I'm sure handball championships has been pretty much always shown on SVT right? Then you're guaranteed high ratings, especially when doing good.

I'm sure even floorball would get good ratings if SVT was fully behind a world championship and covered everything.

Which is why tv ratings imo isn't the best way to judge a sports popularity. Even Curling gets many viewers during olympics.

That doesn't mean it's a popular sport.

Sports attendance, people who actually care enough to go to the arena and pay, is what matters. And how much money the sport is generating, basically how much money the players are making.

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10-26-2011, 03:28 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by hahahaa View Post
I don't like your attidude, what really is your problem? some people thinks that hockey could be a big sport or have potential to be 2nd sport in europe. I think all the optimism is good if were speaking about hockey growth in europe and you're just bashing them... I think you're just a football fan trolling around here. and last for sure football is the bigger sport in Europe.
I think in Finland, Latvia and Belarus icehockey is the no.1 sport, and its quite a big or 2nd sport in Sweden, Russia, Slovakia, Czech, Switzerland. Maybe in Germany,Slovenia, Denmarki and Norway too
I have trouble getting your point in this post. Hockey is defenitly 2nd or 3rd in Europe. But in the bolded countries, hockey isn't big, like at all. Just because I don't say what the homer hockey fans want to hear, it makes me a football troll? You need to get over yourself.

In many countries, being the 3rd or 4th biggest sport in the country means VERY little, since all focus is on 1 or 2 sports, everything that comes after that is VERY VERY minor.

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10-27-2011, 08:59 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
I have trouble getting your point in this post. Hockey is defenitly 2nd or 3rd in Europe. But in the bolded countries, hockey isn't big, like at all. Just because I don't say what the homer hockey fans want to hear, it makes me a football troll? You need to get over yourself.

In many countries, being the 3rd or 4th biggest sport in the country means VERY little, since all focus is on 1 or 2 sports, everything that comes after that is VERY VERY minor.
That's why I said MAYBE in those countries, and didn't actually say its their biggest sport, just up there, 2-4. If hockey game can attract over 70 000 people in germany its not that minor sport you're seriously underrating this sport. And again offcourse football is the number 1 sport here in europe and will remain, but it doesn't mean there is no room for the other sport. Others like myself still watch multiple sports, not just one.

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10-27-2011, 09:47 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by hahahaa View Post
That's why I said MAYBE in those countries, and didn't actually say its their biggest sport, just up there, 2-4. If hockey game can attract over 70 000 people in germany its not that minor sport you're seriously underrating this sport. And again offcourse football is the number 1 sport here in europe and will remain, but it doesn't mean there is no room for the other sport. Others like myself still watch multiple sports, not just one.
PLEASE don't say you're using the opening WC game as an example.

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10-27-2011, 03:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
PLEASE don't say you're using the opening WC game as an example.
Why not? other example could be that some german DEL teams has very good attendace figures over the season. Few teams has over
10 000 average watching their games. Offcourse they had some big arenas there but still.

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10-27-2011, 03:56 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by hahahaa View Post
Why not? other example could be that some german DEL teams has very good attendace figures over the season. Few teams has over
10 000 average watching their games. Offcourse they had some big arenas there but still.
With that example, you're judging an entire sport based on attendance on an WC OPENING game hosted by Germany. It's awesome that it happend, but with enough hype, most countries with an arena availible would be able to get those numbers for 1 game.

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10-27-2011, 04:37 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
With that example, you're judging an entire sport based on attendance on an WC OPENING game hosted by Germany. It's awesome that it happend, but with enough hype, most countries with an arena availible would be able to get those numbers for 1 game.
ok, why they did that stadium game in Germany, because like you said, icehockey is "very very minor" sport there... there must be some kind of interested at least. Denmark planned to host some games in Parken (football stadium) if they get WC:s. Yep, if there is enough hype, hockey will grow.

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10-28-2011, 11:05 AM
  #112
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Lets not the facts get in the way of a good discussion.
http://www.youtube.com/user/iihf?fea.../0/5VzPDCPqogg

I hope that hockey does grow but it is not there yet.

I see strange comments of how Big Hockey Is In Germany. Everyone I talk to who is FROM Germany thinks that is some type of joke. It bugs me when people want to grade Germany, as a country(and others), by there relative strength in the sport of Hockey.

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10-29-2011, 03:12 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
I don't get Netherlands at all. They have some of the best speed skaters
Then again, so does South Korea

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10-29-2011, 04:27 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
I have trouble getting your point in this post. Hockey is defenitly 2nd or 3rd in Europe. But in the bolded countries, hockey isn't big, like at all. Just because I don't say what the homer hockey fans want to hear, it makes me a football troll? You need to get over yourself.

In many countries, being the 3rd or 4th biggest sport in the country means VERY little, since all focus is on 1 or 2 sports, everything that comes after that is VERY VERY minor.
Not big at all? Hockey attendance in Norway is twice as big as handball. Sure it's miles behind soccer but it's a clear second spectator teamsport.

That doesnt make it big perhaps but it's not as bad as you make it seem either.

Denmark I think handball is just ahead in attendance, but hockey is growing quickly there. Them having 6 players or so in NHL probably helps too.

Hockey is second teamsport in attendance in Germany too. I'm sure handball seems more popular to the average German because of national team often being on tv etc, but just like in norway, the popularity usually stops in front of tv.

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10-29-2011, 05:35 PM
  #115
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BTW, here's for our swedish friends in this thread who's perhaps trying to downplay hockey's popularity in Sweden. And elsewhere.


Allsvenskan football Sweden 2010 16 240 1,563,011

That's the highest league soccer in Sweden. 1.5 million overall attendance.

Elitserien Ice hockey Sweden 2010-11 12 330 2,032,800

Hockey half a million higher attendance.
And I'm not even sure playoff attendance is counted, or if it's regular season only.

Soccer of course has no playoffs.



edit, playoffs are not counted. According to the 2009/2010 season in Sweden there was 315K people attending playoffs.

So SEL gets almost 2.5 million attendance including playoffs.

http://estat.hockeyligan.se/c/LSpect...w.aspx?LId=197

This puts hockey in an even better perspective compared to other sports as all the attendance numbers for the hockey leagues are then without playoffs. So numbers are even higher than listed.


Last edited by Artemia: 10-29-2011 at 05:51 PM.
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10-29-2011, 08:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Artemia View Post
BTW, here's for our swedish friends in this thread who's perhaps trying to downplay hockey's popularity in Sweden. And elsewhere.


Allsvenskan football Sweden 2010 16 240 1,563,011

That's the highest league soccer in Sweden. 1.5 million overall attendance.

Elitserien Ice hockey Sweden 2010-11 12 330 2,032,800

Hockey half a million higher attendance.
And I'm not even sure playoff attendance is counted, or if it's regular season only.

Soccer of course has no playoffs.



edit, playoffs are not counted. According to the 2009/2010 season in Sweden there was 315K people attending playoffs.

So SEL gets almost 2.5 million attendance including playoffs.

http://estat.hockeyligan.se/c/LSpect...w.aspx?LId=197

This puts hockey in an even better perspective compared to other sports as all the attendance numbers for the hockey leagues are then without playoffs. So numbers are even higher than listed.
And I said so many times, that EPL/Serie A/La Liga are more or less more popular than the Swedish league.

And once again, you take everything from attendance. Skiing in Norway is arguably their most popular sport, but how does that sports attendance number look?

Edit: I personally have been to 3 hockey games this season, and I got ticktes for another 3, and I have been to 0 football games, because the football I watch is on TV as the swedish league is terrible for the most part.


Last edited by Jonimaus: 10-29-2011 at 09:08 PM.
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10-29-2011, 08:19 PM
  #117
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Then again, so does South Korea
One problem I see with Korea and all the Asian countries compared to Europe is size. The average height for an Asian is much smaller than an average height for a English or Dutch men.

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10-30-2011, 06:58 AM
  #118
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And once again, you take everything from attendance. Skiing in Norway is arguably their most popular sport, but how does that sports attendance number look?
Attendence numbers for cross-country skiing can be very high, especially if the event is held in Oslo (Holmenkollen).

I don't really now what message you are trying to put out Jonimaus. If you are saying that football is more popular than hockey in Sweden, then you are right and I agree. If you are trying to say that hockey isn't a big deal in Sweden then you are plain wrong. There is some regions where hockey isn't so big, like Skåne for example, but there is also plenty of regions where hockey is huge and probably the nr.1 sport (most of Norrland, except bandy-country Hälsingland).

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10-30-2011, 07:31 AM
  #119
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Allsvenskan(football league) has less games than Elitserien. That's why hockey has a bigger overall attendance number. Common sense.

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10-30-2011, 07:31 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by cheerupmurray View Post
Attendence numbers for cross-country skiing can be very high, especially if the event is held in Oslo (Holmenkollen).

I don't really now what message you are trying to put out Jonimaus. If you are saying that football is more popular than hockey in Sweden, then you are right and I agree. If you are trying to say that hockey isn't a big deal in Sweden then you are plain wrong. There is some regions where hockey isn't so big, like Skåne for example, but there is also plenty of regions where hockey is huge and probably the nr.1 sport (most of Norrland, except bandy-country Hälsingland).
The bolded part is what I'm trying to say. And that hockey is very minor in countries like Germany and Denmark.

Anyone saying hockey is minor in Sweden is kidding himself, hell, I go to a lot of Malmö Redhawks games, and even though thy are in the SEL-2, it's not that uncommon for them to get 6000 (and in some cases even 12000) spectators. But at the same time, there has been people saying hockey is as popular as football, and they are kidding themselves.

And I've never said Handball could compete with the other 2 sports on a club level, no way, not even close. But the national handball team, during the golden age was very loved, and had VERY good TV ratings.

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10-30-2011, 11:38 AM
  #121
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Allsvenskan(football league) has less games than Elitserien. That's why hockey has a bigger overall attendance number. Common sense.
No it's not really. Is every soccer game filled to it's limits? If it was, then you'd have a good point.

The biggest complaint people usually have about hockey is that there's too many games. If hockey played just once a week like soccer and the arenas were bigger, hockey would have much higher average attendance than they do today.

Also, if soccer played as many games as hockey, their average attendance would be a lot lower than it is now. I'm sure their total would be higher than it is today, but I'm not sure by how much really.

Soccer plays once a week, hockey 3-4 times a week. Most people can't attend games 3-4 times a week. Once a week no problem.

Allsvenskan soccer has more teams than SEL too, which plays in their favour, but the fact still is that SEL sells almost 1 million more tickets per season.

Total attendance is pretty much the only way you can get a fair comparison.

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10-30-2011, 12:04 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
And I said so many times, that EPL/Serie A/La Liga are more or less more popular than the Swedish league.

And once again, you take everything from attendance. Skiing in Norway is arguably their most popular sport, but how does that sports attendance number look?

Edit: I personally have been to 3 hockey games this season, and I got ticktes for another 3, and I have been to 0 football games, because the football I watch is on TV as the swedish league is terrible for the most part.
Attendance is pretty much everything yes. It's where most of the money comes from.

You think swedish soccer sucks and that's your reason why the attendance is so low. Well, it's not like Swedish hockey is THAT great either, so that excuse could go both ways.

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10-30-2011, 12:41 PM
  #123
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Eh... Elitserien is easily top 5 hockey league in the world, while Allsvenskan is barely in top 30 for the football leagues.

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10-30-2011, 01:09 PM
  #124
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Eh... Elitserien is easily top 5 hockey league in the world, while Allsvenskan is barely in top 30 for the football leagues.
You think many people in general or Sweden think about it that way?

Norwegian soccer league pretty much sucks too but it still draws very high attendance. Most people follow their own countries leagues.

Sure more people follow premier league etc than NHL in Sweden but a huge reason for that is that NHL games are played at 3 in the morning and half around the world.

That's of course a massive disadvantage. I'm sure if it was vice versa NHL would probably be more followed.

It makes it very unfair to compare foreign following because of that.

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10-30-2011, 01:58 PM
  #125
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Allsvenskan(football league) has less games than Elitserien. That's why hockey has a bigger overall attendance number. Common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muuri View Post
Eh... Elitserien is easily top 5 hockey league in the world, while Allsvenskan is barely in top 30 for the football leagues.
there are less games in football, but then again football stadiums are usually much bigger than icehockey arenas

agree, Elitserien is easily in top5, but if you compare it to the NHL or KHL there is some difference. And maybe its not fair to compare football and hockey leagues because there is more football leagues in the world for sure...

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