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#09 | San Jose Sharks vs. New York Islanders | Oct 29 | L 2-3 (OT)

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10-30-2011, 12:08 AM
  #426
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Originally Posted by JTROCKS View Post
True, but there is a big difference between being pissed about a call, and convincing the team to feel sorry for themselves-- and why would he yell at the team---?

Did they play a perfect 60 mins? No... but they played one of the better teams in the league to a tie. They played a very solid game---No reason to be furious w/ the team if you are the coach.
True, but no reason to get all emotional about the refs call and start yelling and screaming, the way alot of the folks on this board are calling for.

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10-30-2011, 12:10 AM
  #427
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I'd rather have the coach that says: "Screw that, we can't change the call so lets get past it and try to kill it." Not blowing a gasket doesn't mean you are satisfied it just means you are not an idiot and won't bang your head against the wall continuously pointlessly.
I agree with your assessment.

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10-30-2011, 12:31 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
I'd rather have the coach that says: "Screw that, we can't change the call so lets get past it and try to kill it." Not blowing a gasket doesn't mean you are satisfied it just means you are not an idiot and won't bang your head against the wall continuously pointlessly.
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Originally Posted by LAIslanderFan View Post
I agree with your assessment.
Exactly. What would Cappy blowing up solve? I think the ideal response would be to look at your team, aknolage the call ,then tell them to get their ***** out there and kill off that penalty.

Losers make excuses. Winners overcome adversity and find a way to win.

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10-30-2011, 01:24 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
Personally, I think Bailey has more to offer in the long run than Frans Nielsen as a 2nd line center. I think we can deal with Nielsen as a true checking center if we get a few big bodies next to him. Otherwise, we're never going to stay the way we are down the middle forever. (Though my hope is to have Strome as JT's right wing, not as a center. Smart player, same kind of tenacity. Just need to fill in a big body on the left side.)

Just looking ahead to the future a bit. But the future 1st line very well could be Nino - Tavares - Strome

Petrov very well might be an option there as early as next year (I believe with 100% certainty that he's coming over)

But it's clear as day that this team needs more size, skill & grit on the top 9. But the club can't afford to wait to grow it. Anders Lee is at least another year away from the AHL. Nelson is at least 2 years away from a pro contract, probably more. Ullstrom could make an impact next year. Czikas isn't big, but he'll provide some grit, but he's a 4th liner anyway. Any other big bodies I'm forgetting are 3+ years out anyway.

Snow has to address this issue. Even if this team made the playoffs, they'd get eaten alive. IMO it would have more to do with their lack of physicality then it would their lack of experience.

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10-30-2011, 04:51 AM
  #430
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Didn't see the game (work). But I do know that the rule used to be (and still could be) that in cases where it doesn't hit the glass-automatic penalty, BUT in cases where it does hit the glass the ref can rule a delay of game if they feel it was intentionally done. It's extremely rare-but they can call it.


edit:
Rule 63.1 Delaying the Game-A player or a team may be penalized when, in the opinion of the referee, is delaying the game in any manner.

Rule 63.2


Minor Penalty: (I'm leaving out the sections that don't pertain to this)


"A minor penalty for delay of game shall be imposed on any player who deliberately shoots or bats (using his hand or his stick) the puck outside the playing area (from anywhere on the ice surface) during the play or after the stoppage of play."

-In other words, if you shoot the puck out of play intentionally-you can be called for delay of game anywhere on the ice. The key word here is "deliberately", because the next sub-section of the rule is tricky.



"When any player, while in his defending zone, shoots or bats (using his hand or his stick) the puck directly (non-deflected) out of the playing surface, except where there is glass, a penalty shall be assessed for delaying the game. When the puck is shot into the players' bench, the penalty will not apply. When the puck is shot over the glass 'behind' the player's bench, the penalty will be assessed. When the puck goes out of the playing area directly off of a face-off, no penalty shall be assessed."

-This never mentions intent. This is solely concerned with the action at hand. This focuses on the automatic penalty-that the ref's opinion on intent doesn't apply. This is the section of the rule that many people instantly think of when discussing shooting a puck out of play, however the first section I displayed is also a part of the rules-and can be called. Hell you can even be in the offensive zone, shoot a puck over the glass for whatever reason, and be assessed a delay of game penalty.

So it is possible (and allowed) for a player to shoot a puck that hits the glass in the defensive zone that then goes out of play to get penalized for a delay of game, IF the referee thinks it was done deliberately.




PS-how did Ricky look?


Last edited by ScaredStreit: 10-30-2011 at 05:12 AM.
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Old
10-30-2011, 05:33 AM
  #431
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umm toronto confirmed that the puck clearly hit the glass and was NOT a penalty.. the war room said so.. but theres no video review on these plays so we get screwed over b/c of a clueless ref and linemsen who couldnt make a correct icing call all night (they whistled 2 non icings as icings and had neutral zone faceoffs b/c of the incorrect whistle)

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10-30-2011, 05:50 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Ziggy16 View Post
umm toronto confirmed that the puck clearly hit the glass and was NOT a penalty.. the war room said so.. but theres no video review on these plays so we get screwed over b/c of a clueless ref and linemsen who couldnt make a correct icing call all night (they whistled 2 non icings as icings and had neutral zone faceoffs b/c of the incorrect whistle)
As I said did not see the game (I work nights-hence why I'm up at 7am LOL). As I didn't see the play, I obviously cannot weigh in on it.

All I was pointing out was just because the puck hit the glass before going out, doesn't automatically mean a penalty cannot be called. As I pointed out from the rulebook (not my opinion), if a player shoots the puck out of play from anywhere on the ice-and the ref deems it to be intentional-the ref can call a delay of penalty. Period. That's in the rule book.

If the refs ruled the puck didn't hit the glass and it did-they're absolutely wrong. If they ruled it hit the glass, but the intent was to get the puck out of play-they CAN do that.

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10-30-2011, 06:23 AM
  #433
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Given that the Sharks weren't applying pressure and Hampnic was clearly tying to bank the puck to Tavares, one can clearly assess that there was no intent.
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Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
As I said did not see the game (I work nights-hence why I'm up at 7am LOL). As I didn't see the play, I obviously cannot weigh in on it.

All I was pointing out was just because the puck hit the glass before going out, doesn't automatically mean a penalty cannot be called. As I pointed out from the rulebook (not my opinion), if a player shoots the puck out of play from anywhere on the ice-and the ref deems it to be intentional-the ref can call a delay of penalty. Period. That's in the rule book.

If the refs ruled the puck didn't hit the glass and it did-they're absolutely wrong. If they ruled it hit the glass, but the intent was to get the puck out of play-they CAN do that.

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10-30-2011, 06:25 AM
  #434
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10-30-2011, 07:33 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
Bailey's play doesn't deserve him to go sit on the 4th line because Reasoner is winning so many draws. Our 4th line has been exactly what you should expect out of a 4th line, but they're not exactly an offensive powerhouse outside of possession in the offensive zone.

If I bump anybody up, it's Matt Martin. His size is part of what is lacking on all three of our scoring forward units. (We obviously don't have a true checking line.)

Moulson-Tavares-Comeau/Martin/Parenteau
Grabner-Bailey-Okposo
Rolston-Nielsen-CMP
Pandolfo-Reasoner-CMP

Personally, I'd rather shake the whole thing up, but I wouldn't do it after one of our better 5-on-5 games. (Though the problems are still apparent as far as I'm concerned and PAP's giveaways and falling down episodes are increasing.)

That said, in game, you bump our right side wingers up and down as need be.
  • JT getting pushed around? Put in Martin.
  • Comeau playing hard and skating and not holding the puck too long? Bump him up.
  • Parenteau not holding on to the puck and Comeau is slacking against a non-physical team? Bump PAP up.

Personally, I think Bailey has more to offer in the long run than Frans Nielsen as a 2nd line center. I think we can deal with Nielsen as a true checking center if we get a few big bodies next to him. Otherwise, we're never going to stay the way we are down the middle forever. (Though my hope is to have Strome as JT's right wing, not as a center. Smart player, same kind of tenacity. Just need to fill in a big body on the left side.)

This team still needs some additions to be a better 5-on-5 team. Tweaking will need to be done. I'm hoping Garth and Company are taking a strong look at what the team's needs are. I won't be shocked if there's a trade at around the 20-25 game mark depending on our record.

Regardless, we put in a quality effort from start to finish tonight. DiPietro looked very strong at times considering he should have looked pretty rusty.

As long as Jurcina is healthy, I think 1st line RW and a legit physically strong 3rd liner are our biggest needs. A swap of centers might also not be such a bad idea to bring in some size and grit. Our defense was always weak on the right side from the start, so any hit with injury there is going to be hard to recover from. I don't think we're going to get a player we need there easily though.

With how things are laid out for the moment, Nino has a legitimate chance to make an impact on this team when he gets back into the lineup (assuming he's ready to do so.)

I don't understand all of the rebuild failing crap. We have a lot of quality prospects who aren't close to being here. This is the season you should expect results, but we're not exactly where we need to be yet to be lights out every night. I'm fine if people want to trash management for not filling in the holes via free agency, but I wouldn't mistake the current state of the NHL lineup with the success of the overall rebuild.

Also, I'm going to go on record with this, I DO NOT wish to trade Josh Bailey. His game is coming along. The points will come. With Comeau giving a **** the past couple of games, it's only a matter of time. Rolston hasn't really impressed me much (was hoping to see his 2nd half of last season form), but our 4th line has been cutting into some of our 3rd line's ice. (That might say something good about our 4th line, or bad about our 3rd line, or some of both. I'm going to give it to the 20 or 25 game mark to see how it shakes out...)

This game was one of our better 60+ minute efforts. Let's hope we see more of the effort, but look at the lineup and realize that there are still holes in it. I don't get the calls for Cappy's head I've seen. I also think it's sad how reactionary this board has become on a game-by-game basis.

,
Mitch
A lot of good points, especially about the state of the rebuild. Strome, Nino, De Haan, Donovan all have not played this year and most won't hit the ice for a while.

My disagreement will be the team needs. I think we need a 2nd line center and top 4 dman still, and I agree about the power forward, that is why I wanted Evander Kane, who is probably not available. Jesse J failed at this job last year miserably, he was a soft big guy.

Also I disagree on Bailey, I see a player that is 1-2 seconds too slow for the NHL, see Schremp, Tambellini, Chyzowski, Dalgarno, etc....

Comeau on the first line would work, it did at the end of 09/10. Martin moved up to at least the 3rd line would work. I really wish we could deal Bailey for his equivalent on defense (prospect that is playing regularly that is not contributing). Then we can bring up Haley for toughness and move Reasoner up to either 2nd or 3rd line warming the spot up for Strome or an FA.

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10-30-2011, 07:52 AM
  #436
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On a positive note, how damn good has JT's skating improved?

He's no longer a below average, or even average skater.... the kid blows by Dmen numerous times throughout the game.

Doesn't have the acceleration of Grabner (nor is even close), but he's become a very powerful skater... that's the difference between this year and last.

Now, if he can only improve his breakaway's and overall shot.

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10-30-2011, 08:27 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
On a positive note, how damn good has JT's skating improved?
He's looking soooo good out there. His skating has improved in leaps and bounds. His stride and twists & turns - just something else.

Throw in the body play, the way he wins and then shields pucks and welp, we really, really have a kid here who is emerging as one of the league's top 25 players.

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10-30-2011, 08:31 AM
  #438
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Bogus call

What I don't understand about the penalty against Hamonic in OT is that when these 4 refs/linesmen get togther, there must be AT LEAST one who noticed that the puck had, in factual reality, hit the glass before going out.

At least one.

There is nooooo way possible that the four meet and all four completely miss a factual reality.

It's possible that one or more say "I didn't see anything", and thus just one or two guys are of the opinion that the puck cleanly went over the boards, but even in that case, there has to be a benefit of the doubt mentality.

It's OT. It's the NHL. One decision hurts neither team. The other - which was the factually WRONG decision to boot - puts one team at a disadvantage.

I really miss the logic behind the audacity of making that call.

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10-30-2011, 08:57 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
What I don't understand about the penalty against Hamonic in OT is that when these 4 refs/linesmen get togther, there must be AT LEAST one who noticed that the puck had, in factual reality, hit the glass before going out.

At least one.

There is nooooo way possible that the four meet and all four completely miss a factual reality.

It's possible that one or more say "I didn't see anything", and thus just one or two guys are of the opinion that the puck cleanly went over the boards, but even in that case, there has to be a benefit of the doubt mentality.

It's OT. It's the NHL. One decision hurts neither team. The other - which was the factually WRONG decision to boot - puts one team at a disadvantage.

I really miss the logic behind the audacity of making that call.
The fact that it is in OT is what really hurts. A 4-3 penalty is leaps and bounds harder to kill off than a 5-4. It's possible the refs really didn't see anything but were convinced by San Jose that it went clean over. Otherwise I don't see that call being made if the refs really weren't sure, which I'm assuming is the case since the puck clearly hit off the glass.

Refresh my memory, but are the refs allowed to overturn a call like that if they get together and discuss it? Or is it set in stone once it's made?

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10-30-2011, 09:49 AM
  #440
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They showed the replay from overhead last night. As soon as the puck hits the glass you see the linesman closest to the play signal deflection. I guess he got overturned by the other three. You could actually hear it. I thought I heard it as it happened.

And JT? Couldn't be more pleased with his maturation as a hockey player. Kid really looks good. And you guys are so right, his skating is much much better. His strength on his skate. The kid never goes down anymore. I love it. Exciting to see him grow with each game. Now if they can only figure out the rest of the roster we would be set.

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10-30-2011, 09:52 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
The fact that it is in OT is what really hurts. A 4-3 penalty is leaps and bounds harder to kill off than a 5-4. It's possible the refs really didn't see anything but were convinced by San Jose that it went clean over. Otherwise I don't see that call being made if the refs really weren't sure, which I'm assuming is the case since the puck clearly hit off the glass.

Refresh my memory, but are the refs allowed to overturn a call like that if they get together and discuss it? Or is it set in stone once it's made?
No, they are allowed to overturn it. But only among one another, in other words they can't use the jumbotron or Toronto or anything like that. They do it sometimes with pucks over the glass where they make one call, get together and then change it.

I think Howie read what happened on the ice wrong. The ref went right to the scorer's table after the puck left play, the Islanders penalty door opened right away too.

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10-30-2011, 10:21 AM
  #442
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On a positive note, how damn good has JT's skating improved?

He's no longer a below average, or even average skater.... the kid blows by Dmen numerous times throughout the game.

Doesn't have the acceleration of Grabner (nor is even close), but he's become a very powerful skater... that's the difference between this year and last.

Now, if he can only improve his breakaway's and overall shot.


Agree 110%

When drafted I was worried about JT and his skating for NHL Hockey.....well that has changed...

Amazing night and day skating.....JT

Perhaps the rest of the team should go for skating lessons.......with exception of Grabner and Streit...


If only the rest of the team had the desire to be better and get the help and train Like JT did this off season

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10-30-2011, 11:30 AM
  #443
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I was there last night.
A complete game overall which makes the two bad calls even worse.

Isles outplayed the Sharks wire to wire.

Base observations:
DiPietro: If the id1ot would stay in the crease he would put a lot of the negative feelings towards him to rest. He played well when he needed too. The only goal that was remotely questionable was the second one. I wonder if using the blocker on the shot giving up the rebound that beat him was the best choice.

Tavares and the first line: I know many feel P.A. does not belong here, but the line is generating scoring consistently this season, and all of last season. Leave it alone. P.A. is fine. Nino should NOT be put on this line at 19-20 with all that pressure on him. Let him start on line three for a while and see what happens for a few weeks before we send him into the fire.

Neilsens line: They had a solid game overall. Id like to see KO drive the slot a bit more, but he played as good as any of them. Grabs is a slow starter notoriously, and it looks like he is starting to come around now.

Josh Bailey: I think he looked OK but the two problems that I continue to see with him persist. He does not shoot, and after he passes he skates an outside route to the side of the net rather then straight to the net. I dont understand this at all. You would think he would skate directly to the net to create a screen or look for a potential rebound.

Blake Comeau: Also a slow starter, I just did not see too much.

Staios looked fine. The call on him in the first was laughable.

Streit: Still a bit of rust but you can see his timing and work getting stronger and stronger. He'll be fine.

Hamonic and A-Mac: both looked fine. Id like both to work on quicker releases.

Power Play: I know Cappy wants to have two PP units that can score, but I am wondering if going with the best 5 skaters early would be a better approach. It seemed like Rolston is used on the point of the second unit last night and to me it would better if he and Streit were on the ice together. This would make the shot coming only from Streit less predictable.

Refs: I usually like to be kissed before I get....you know the rest. Seriously, what is the going rate for Referees these days? That was a disaster. I would like to see Snow make a more vocal issue of it at least emotionally. He'll get fined, but really this was twice in as many games we got bad calls. The KO call where he "interfered" with Fleury when he was clearly pushed in and last nights play where it clearly hit the glass.

Toronto can only make a ruling in the case of a questionable goal. But I have to wonder if a game is in overtime, should something like this be reviewable? Why can't we have a situation like the NFL? Where if a call on the ice is made that a coach finds questionable, he can toss a red flag on the ice to challenge the ruling. Then the play can be reviewed. If the play on the ice stands, the team is penalized for 2 minutes for delay of game. If the play is over-turned, then it is overturned, and we continue.

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10-30-2011, 12:46 PM
  #444
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I hope they post the pregame ceremony on Islanders.TV. For the sixth time this season Center Ice offered only the opponents TV broadcast. Really, why aren't we getting Howie and Butch on all the home games? I am having a hard time identifying the Isles as my team, being forced to listen to these foreign bradcasters.

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10-30-2011, 12:56 PM
  #445
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I hope they post the pregame ceremony on Islanders.TV. For the sixth time this season Center Ice offered only the opponents TV broadcast. Really, why aren't we getting Howie and Butch on all the home games? I am having a hard time identifying the Isles as my team, being forced to listen to these foreign bradcasters.
For the first time in year's CI is really pissing me off with the constant away feed of our games.

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10-30-2011, 01:31 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
For the first time in year's CI is really pissing me off with the constant away feed of our games.
What is your choice:

a) Home feed, in Standard Definition
b) Away feed in High Def

If you want the Islander local feed that MSG chooses to provide prepare to squint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAIslanderFan View Post
True, but no reason to get all emotional about the refs call and start yelling and screaming, the way alot of the folks on this board are calling for.
This was one of Gordon's biggest flaws - he let the refs, the other team's dirty players, etc., all crap on his players without pushing back. Some things are so egregious you have to get angry and let the idiots know it won't be overlooked, swept under the rug, etc. I applaud Weight ripping the officials. It would have been nice to see our C & A's ride them as well.


Last edited by A Pointed Stick: 10-30-2011 at 01:48 PM.
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10-30-2011, 01:38 PM
  #447
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True, but no reason to get all emotional about the refs call and start yelling and screaming, the way alot of the folks on this board are calling for.
Sure there is. Maybe the emotion will carry down to the players.

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10-30-2011, 02:05 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by Moosie View Post
I hope they post the pregame ceremony on Islanders.TV. For the sixth time this season Center Ice offered only the opponents TV broadcast. Really, why aren't we getting Howie and Butch on all the home games? I am having a hard time identifying the Isles as my team, being forced to listen to these foreign bradcasters.
I had to laugh, but then I remembered where in the US San Jose is, and now I must bitterly agree with the sentiment.

On DTV, I got both feeds on my Center Ice.....but I'm still trying to figure out how they arrange home and away teams (or is it done my ratings or other method) so I can schedule the right feed.

I got lucky last night. 50/50 and I picked the second feed which wound up being the home feed, not the foreign one.

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10-30-2011, 02:06 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
What is your choice:

a) Home feed, in Standard Definition
b) Away feed in High Def

If you want the Islander local feed that MSG chooses to provide prepare to squint.
Center Ice is only giving us out-of-marketers one feed, and it's only been from the Islanders side 3 times out of 9 games. In past years they've offered the home feed almost all of the time. They did give us both feeds for the Penguins home game for some reason.

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10-30-2011, 02:08 PM
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
The fact that it is in OT is what really hurts. A 4-3 penalty is leaps and bounds harder to kill off than a 5-4. It's possible the refs really didn't see anything but were convinced by San Jose that it went clean over. Otherwise I don't see that call being made if the refs really weren't sure, which I'm assuming is the case since the puck clearly hit off the glass.

Refresh my memory, but are the refs allowed to overturn a call like that if they get together and discuss it? Or is it set in stone once it's made?
I think I saw it once before, but the ref had not gone to the glass to call it yet. Maybe it's reversible if:

a. The ref has blown the play dead and not announced it

or

b. It's against Pittsburg

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