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10-30-2011, 08:50 AM
  #76
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they(kids and their parents) are afraid that they will be not noticed by NA scouts and because of no agreement deal they will be drafted only in late rounds or not get drafted at all. In other words CHL is the place where they can show how passionate they can be and how madly they wanna be in NHL!
yes, I agree with it but I say.. it is bad attitude of players... if you are good enough you can succeed in KHL as well.. look at Bobrovsky, Dima Orlov, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov... all are or will be in NHL.. no problem.

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10-30-2011, 11:26 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
this have nothing to do with it! infrastructure is in way better contitions than it was during the 90-s or in early 21 century(top prospects mostly stayed in Russia back then) and development system is getting on the feet again but there is other reasons for it - they(kids and their parents) are afraid that they will be not noticed by NA scouts and because of no agreement deal they will be drafted only in late rounds or not get drafted at all. In other words CHL is the place where they can show how passionate they can be and how madly they wanna be in NHL!
If the infrastructure were better, you'd see more young players progress to the KHL and you'd see a higher number of NHL draft picks. Yes, the KHL and the "Russian factor" has contributed largely to those low totals, but the low numbers have to have relation to the quality churned out.

It's naive to blame it simply on the NHL and the "Russian factor". Clearly kids believe staying in Russia at 16/17/18 is not a clear recipe for future success. The development system may be improving and clear steps are being made to define the transition and the system, but until Russia kids stay home at a young age, there is something amiss.


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10-30-2011, 11:53 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
If the infrastructure were better, you'd see more young players progress to the KHL and you'd see a higher number of NHL draft picks. Yes, the KHL and the "Russian factor" has contributed largely to those low totals, but the low numbers have to relation to the quality churned out.

It's naive to blame it simply on the NHL and the "Russian factor". Clearly kids believe staying in Russia at 16/17/18 is not a clear recipe for future success. The development system may be improving and clear steps are being made to define the transition and the system, but until Russia kids stay home at a young age, there is something amiss.
J17

It seems as though you are making judgments based on broad generalizations that aren't necessarily supported by the facts. For example, the low number of Russian kids drafted by the NHL has very little to do with "bad infrastructure," and almost everything to do with the existence of the KHL. NHL general managers have been very candid about openly saying that they are reluctant to draft Russian kids who have the KHL to fall back on - they fear they might waste a high draft pick. And Russian kids coming to NA probably has little to do with something being "amiss" in the Russian hockey infrastructure, and much more to do with convincing NHL general managers that they are REALLY interested in playing in the NHL, and won't opt to sign with a KHL team.

The Russian hockey infrastructure has made great strides in the past seven (7) or eight (8) years, and appears to be on a steady course to completely reverse the devastation that the program experienced in the 1990's, when, according to Gennadiy Tsygankov, the great Soviet defensemen of the 1970's, there were "about 160 of the best Russian players playing for big money in NA, and another 160 or so playing in Western Europe," leaving only those players who weren't good enough to draw any interest in the West to entertain the Russian fans. You are missing the point that the Russian infrastructure is getting better, not worse!

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10-30-2011, 12:04 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
J17

It seems as though you are making judgments based on broad generalizations that aren't necessarily supported by the facts. For example, the low number of Russian kids drafted by the NHL has very little to do with "bad infrastructure," and almost everything to do with the existence of the KHL. NHL general managers have been very candid about openly saying that they are reluctant to draft Russian kids who have the KHL to fall back on - they fear they might waste a high draft pick. And Russian kids coming to NA probably has little to do with something being "amiss" in the Russian hockey infrastructure, and much more to do with convincing NHL general managers that they are REALLY interested in playing in the NHL, and won't opt to sign with a KHL team.

The Russian hockey infrastructure has made great strides in the past seven (7) or eight (8) years, and appears to be on a steady course to completely reverse the devastation that the program experienced in the 1990's, when, according to Gennadiy Tsygankov, the great Soviet defensemen of the 1970's, there were "about 160 of the best Russian players playing for big money in NA, and another 160 or so playing in Western Europe," leaving only those players who weren't good enough to draw any interest in the West to entertain the Russian fans. You are missing the point that the Russian infrastructure is getting better, not worse!
It's naive to simply blame the political situation between the KHL and NHL as the reason for the lack of picks in regards to the NHL draft. Yes it's a major factor, but can anybody provide a realistic argument to suggest that Russian youth hockey has been blossoming recently? Simply put, in recent years the product of the youth system hasn't been particularly good.

I do not disagree that Russian hockey is making signifcant progress in it's tiered development system. But clearly in the last 5 years the level of talent has been below what you might expect. The lines of transition were blurred and very few young players were developing well. It's upto Russian hockey to improve this, and until it's actually done correctly, it comes as no suprise to see young players leave at an early age.

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10-30-2011, 12:15 PM
  #80
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How many of those Russian players drafted in early 00's really had NHL potential? Looking back on those picks, I get the feeling they drafted and gambled on every half-decent Russian those days. Therefore those numbers doesn't really reflect the amount of talant in Russia.

How much better is the infrastructure in Russia compared to situation 10-15 years ago? One thing is to build huge arena for KHL club, but if kids still have to play in crumbling soviet hangars, then situation isn't that much different.

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10-30-2011, 12:19 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
It's naive to simply blame the political situation between the KHL and NHL as the reason for the lack of picks in regards to the NHL draft. Yes it's a major factor, but can anybody provide a realistic argument to suggest that Russian youth hockey has been blossoming recently? Simply put, in recent years the product of the youth system hasn't been particularly good.

I do not disagree that Russian hockey is making signifcant progress in it's tiered development system. But clearly in the last 5 years the level of talent has been below what you might expect. The lines of transition were blurred and very few young players were developing well. It's upto Russian hockey to improve this, and until it's actually done correctly, it comes as no suprise to see young players leave at an early age.
If you insist that it is a fact that "clearly in the last 5 years the level of (Russian) talent has been below what you might expect," how do you explain the fact that the Russians beat Canada, 5-3, to win the WJC Gold Medal last year, and in 2009, before they performed their typical stomping of Sweden in the Gold Medal game, Canada came within 3 seconds, and a lucky bounce off the body of Kulikov, of losing to Russia in regulation time (ultimately winning a shootout). Both games were played in NA in front of Canadian spectators entirely. Your assertions just don't seem to match up with the facts.

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10-30-2011, 01:11 PM
  #82
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NHL draft is not real source of informations about level of developing programmes in countries. Everybody should know it. NHL draft is just politics.

IMO 1st, 2nd and the last reason why young Russians go to NA junior leagues is NHL.. they want to show that they are interested in playing here. Look, if I want to work for Apple I will show my skills its managers, I will not go to Google office. Thats easy. I know that russian developing programme has trouble (kids, juniors are ok, but could be better). Why did Grigs move? Have facilities declined during summer in CSKA? Last season he was satisfied by conditions in CSKA, this season no.. do you know why? He was drafted by CSKA and if he wanted to play for CSKA he would had to sign 3 y contract... thats reason. Trouble with NHL draft. I ask you.. how have facilities changed during last summer in CSKA?

These kids have a dream about NHL.. it is ok, but they have to choose right route.. and going to CHL is not right step. I fully undertand Namestnikovīs move (his russian team dissapeared due to financial problems), but I dont undestand guys like Grigs, Kamaev, Khokhlachev etc.. who has perfect conditions in russian clubs.

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10-30-2011, 01:34 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post

How much better is the infrastructure in Russia compared to situation 10-15 years ago? One thing is to build huge arena for KHL club, but if kids still have to play in crumbling soviet hangars, then situation isn't that much different.
seems to me you dont know much about it just one example by Moscow region
http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/russia/rus127_e.htm

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10-30-2011, 01:34 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
NHL draft is not real source of informations about level of developing programmes in countries. Everybody should know it. NHL draft is just politics.

IMO 1st, 2nd and the last reason why young Russians go to NA junior leagues is NHL.. they want to show that they are interested in playing here. Look, if I want to work for Apple I will show my skills its managers, I will not go to Google office. Thats easy. I know that russian developing programme has trouble (kids, juniors are ok, but could be better). Why did Grigs move? Have facilities declined during summer in CSKA? Last season he was satisfied by conditions in CSKA, this season no.. do you know why? He was drafted by CSKA and if he wanted to play for CSKA he would had to sign 3 y contract... thats reason. Trouble with NHL draft. I ask you.. how have facilities changed during last summer in CSKA?

These kids have a dream about NHL.. it is ok, but they have to choose right route.. and going to CHL is not right step. I fully undertand Namestnikovīs move (his russian team dissapeared due to financial problems), but I dont undestand guys like Grigs, Kamaev, Khokhlachev etc.. who has perfect conditions in russian clubs.
The NHL draft if taken as a sample size over 3-4 years certainly represents the state of a hockey programme to a satisfactory degree.

Sweden has record numbers and it shows. Czech Republic, Slovakia and Finland have all had big lulls in their Junior systems, and the NHL draft mirrors this. Russia is different, politically, but it is foolish to completely ignore the relation of the NHL draft and quality of domestic produce.

Many Russian kids are going over because they want to make the NHL. They do this because firstly, it's what NHL teams want and its the best way to get drafted. But they also leave because issues of ice time and an issues in developing young players. It's all well and good to just blame the NHL, but there are always other reasons, and frankly its ignorant to not believe this.

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10-30-2011, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
NHL draft is not real source of informations about level of developing programmes in countries. Everybody should know it. NHL draft is just politics.

IMO 1st, 2nd and the last reason why young Russians go to NA junior leagues is NHL.. they want to show that they are interested in playing here. Look, if I want to work for Apple I will show my skills its managers, I will not go to Google office. Thats easy. I know that russian developing programme has trouble (kids, juniors are ok, but could be better). Why did Grigs move? Have facilities declined during summer in CSKA? Last season he was satisfied by conditions in CSKA, this season no.. do you know why? He was drafted by CSKA and if he wanted to play for CSKA he would had to sign 3 y contract... thats reason. Trouble with NHL draft. I ask you..how have facilities changed during last summer in CSKA?

These kids have a dream about NHL.. it is ok, but they have to choose right route.. and going to CHL is not right step. I fully undertand Namestnikovīs move (his russian team dissapeared due to financial problems), but I dont undestand guys like Grigs, Kamaev, Khokhlachev etc.. who has perfect conditions in russian clubs.
thats damn right!

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10-30-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
The NHL draft if taken as a sample size over 3-4 years certainly represents the state of a hockey programme to a satisfactory degree.

Sweden has record numbers and it shows. Czech Republic, Slovakia and Finland have all had big lulls in their Junior systems, and the NHL draft mirrors this. Russia is different, politically, but it is foolish to completely ignore the relation of the NHL draft and quality of domestic produce.

Many Russian kids are going over because they want to make the NHL. They do this because firstly, it's what NHL teams want and its the best way to get drafted. But they also leave because issues of ice time and an issues in developing young players. It's all well and good to just blame the NHL, but there are always other reasons, and frankly its ignorant to not believe this.
yes and definitely no!

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10-30-2011, 01:40 PM
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If you insist that it is a fact that "clearly in the last 5 years the level of (Russian) talent has been below what you might expect," how do you explain the fact that the Russians beat Canada, 5-3, to win the WJC Gold Medal last year, and in 2009, before they performed their typical stomping of Sweden in the Gold Medal game, Canada came within 3 seconds, and a lucky bounce off the body of Kulikov, of losing to Russia in regulation time (ultimately winning a shootout). Both games were played in NA in front of Canadian spectators entirely. Your assertions just don't seem to match up with the facts.
very good point by the way.

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10-30-2011, 01:41 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
If you insist that it is a fact that "clearly in the last 5 years the level of (Russian) talent has been below what you might expect," how do you explain the fact that the Russians beat Canada, 5-3, to win the WJC Gold Medal last year, and in 2009, before they performed their typical stomping of Sweden in the Gold Medal game, Canada came within 3 seconds, and a lucky bounce off the body of Kulikov, of losing to Russia in regulation time (ultimately winning a shootout). Both games were played in NA in front of Canadian spectators entirely. Your assertions just don't seem to match up with the facts.
In the last 5 years, the Russian Junior squad has peformed rather indifferently. Certainly not up the upmost consistent high quality one might expect.

Last year was great and i was very happy to see such a result, but must also reason with the fact that the event was won almost purely on the shoulders of Kuznetsov and Tarasenko. Exclude those two, and you aren't making it past Finland. I remember in the early stages of the event, everyone was saying how meh Russia looked and discussing the issues within the Russian development system. Yes, they eventually won, but it was an event won on many "coin flips" (situations that could have gone either direction in the final 3 games). Kuznetsov and Tarasenko were absolutely spectacular. It's a gold medal and it certainly highlighted a new found spirit within the camp and a better selection policy, but Russia in terms of overall ability, were IMO clearly the 4th best team there.

Just look at the names from last year. Orlov, Kuznetsov, Tarasenko ; all future National team players for sure. Outside that? Paranin impressed me (could certainly become a national player one day), but nothing else really stood out. The overall depth of the team was in individual talent way behind the other Big 3 IMO.

This years potential squad might not have the same success, but i think it's a much more individually talented team that will in 10 years time, have far greater individual career success. Im no expert of course, and may be wrong, but thats just what i see.

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10-30-2011, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
yes and definitely no!
The two are linked. If ice time is an issue, then development is also potentially restricted. Of course different teams will have different approaches and successes, but it's very difficult for young players to break into the KHL.

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10-30-2011, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
In the last 5 years, the Russian Junior squad has peformed rather indifferently. Certainly not up the upmost consistent high quality one might expect.

Last year was great and i was very happy to see such a result, but must also reason with the fact that the event was won almost purely on the shoulders of Kuznetsov and Tarasenko. Exclude those two, and you aren't making it past Finland. I remember in the early stages of the event, everyone was saying how meh Russia looked and discussing the issues within the Russian development system. Yes, they eventually won, but it was an event won on many "coin flips" (situations that could have gone either direction in the final 3 games). Kuznetsov and Tarasenko were absolutely spectacular. It's a gold medal and it certainly highlighted a new found spirit within the camp and a better selection policy, but Russia in terms of overall ability, were IMO clearly the 4th best team there.

Just look at the names from last year. Orlov, Kuznetsov, Tarasenko ; all future National team players for sure. Outside that? Paranin impressed me (could certainly become a national player one day), but nothing else really stood out. The overall depth of the team was in individual talent way behind the other Big 3 IMO.

This years potential squad might not have the same success, but i think it's a much more individually talented team that will in 10 years time, have far greater individual career success. Im no expert of course, and may be wrong, but thats just what i see.
this is laughable just pure nonsense..
you are strongly underestimate talent of Bobkov,Panarin,Kitzyn,Urytchev(RIP),Dvurechensky,S obchenko(RIP) ...

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10-30-2011, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
In the last 5 years, the Russian Junior squad has peformed rather indifferently. Certainly not up the upmost consistent high quality one might expect.
2007


Canada
Russia
USA


Leksand, Mora

2008


Canada
Sweden
Russia


Pardubice, Liberec

2009


Canada
Sweden
Russia


Ottawa

2010

USA
Canada
Sweden


Saskatoon, Regina

2011
Russia
Canada
USA


so 1 gold,1silver and 2 bronze medals. just behind the canada by stats. facts my friend are proving something else!


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10-30-2011, 02:04 PM
  #92
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this is laughable just pure nonsense..
you are strongly underestimate talent of Bobkov,Panarin,Kitzyn,Urytchev(RIP),Dvurechensky,S obchenko(RIP) ...
Bobkov has alogn way to go before he's a particularly good Goalie. The package is there, but he has a long long way to go.

Dvurechensky doesn't possess particulay high end skills. He's a good player, but i don't see a high end skill there outside of great skating. He wouldn't have made Canada/US/Sweden last year.

Kitsyn i think gets a little overstated talent wise. Yes, he has good size, nice puck skills and good skating and is fun to watch, but 4 years on from his introduction into the KHL and he is yet to establish himself. In the OHL he was good, but he wasn't dominating younger competiton like the preceeding hype might suggest. I think he can become a solid player (for instance his NHL potential to me is a lesser Frolov, a 40-50 point a year guy).

Urytchev (RIP) to me wasn't anything special. He wouldn't have made US/Sweden/Canada.

Sobchenko (RIP) i cannot really comment on.

Panarin impressed me (though it's difficult to see NHL upside yet) and i think he likely will establish himself as an excellent KHL forward who is capable of playing for Russia at the Senior level one day.

You were essentially carried by two special talents (and Orlov).

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10-30-2011, 02:25 PM
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The NHL draft if taken as a sample size over 3-4 years certainly represents the state of a hockey programme to a satisfactory degree.

Sweden has record numbers and it shows. Czech Republic, Slovakia and Finland have all had big lulls in their Junior systems, and the NHL draft mirrors this. Russia is different, politically, but it is foolish to completely ignore the relation of the NHL draft and quality of domestic produce.
I respect your opinion but dont agree

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10-30-2011, 02:47 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
seems to me you dont know much about it just one example by Moscow region
http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/russia/rus127_e.htm
I ask a question, and you bash me about not knowing the answer. Classy. But thanks for the link though.

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10-30-2011, 03:29 PM
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Using NHL-draft number as a measurment of how the Russian talent program is working seems pretty useless, with the russian factor still being strong.

It seems to me that the russian agegroups 1987-1989 wont go down in the history as strongest ones from a russian perspective, or am I wrong?
Those years look weak compared to what Sweden got from those agegroups and you should usually produce more and better player than Sweden right?

Starting with the russian 1990's all down to the 1994's the system seems back on track and as strong as ever though.

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10-31-2011, 03:40 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post

Last year was great and i was very happy to see such a result, but must also reason with the fact that the event was won almost purely on the shoulders of Kuznetsov and Tarasenko. Exclude those two, and you aren't making it past Finland.
This is not really a good argument, it's like saying exclude Crosby and the US won the Olympics...
I dont think it's a wise speech to say "exclude x,y" they are the teams' best players and they have a purpose in being so

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10-31-2011, 03:41 AM
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I remember in the early stages of the event, everyone was saying how meh Russia looked and discussing the issues within the Russian development system.
I was among those. Yes, Russia looked bad on the tournament's start. Then we found ourselves. A good team makes that and good players play great when it matters. Kuznetsov didnt do much in the round robin, but during the medal round he delivered.

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10-31-2011, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post

Sweden has record numbers and it shows.
Come on, NHL teams draft a lot of Swedes because of the agreement now in force and it's easier to get them. Last year's WJC Team Sweden had pretty much all drafted players. Russia had just six. I highly doubt that team Sweden was better than Russia, and also I do think that most of Team Russia would have been drafted if they were Swedes. Do you really think that Panarin, Burdasov, Pivtsakin etc are so worse than Swede players not to get any draft consideration? Be serious, you know that Burdasov, Panarin, Pivtsakin, Zaitsev, etc, would have been drafted if they'd come from Sweden.

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10-31-2011, 04:26 AM
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This is not really a good argument, it's like saying exclude Crosby and the US won the Olympics...
I dont think it's a wise speech to say "exclude x,y" they are the teams' best players and they have a purpose in being so
Most teams who win events don't do it like Russia did last year. They could have lost all 3 big games. Finland outplayed them for nesrly 60 minutes, Sweden were the better team for large stretches and got lazy, Canada were cruising for 2 periods.

Yes it seems absurd to say "Take out X and Y" and they don't win, but Russia were so dependant two players (More so than any previous winner i can remember) that it seems apt. Take out Canada's best player (Probably Schenn) and they still make the finals. Take our the best US player and they have the depth to make up for it. Sweden lost Landeskog early and were still IMO a better balanced and greater depth team than Russia.

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10-31-2011, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
I was among those. Yes, Russia looked bad on the tournament's start. Then we found ourselves. A good team makes that and good players play great when it matters. Kuznetsov didnt do much in the round robin, but during the medal round he delivered.
Which really helps my point. The team revolved around 1/2 players.

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