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Why is AK not being used on the PP??

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Old
10-31-2011, 02:36 PM
  #51
Jigger77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I believe it was already tried with Kostitsyn on the point, and it was a mess defensively. He has the shot to be effective there, but his lack of IQ makes him an unworthy candidate.
Yeah I was going to say the same thing. Major defensive liability at the point, unfortunately.

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10-31-2011, 02:38 PM
  #52
buddahsmoka1
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Agreed and this is were I want Martin to make the changes, example the other night 5 on 3 and our best forward so far Pacioretty isn't on the ice but Gionta is. Give the ice time and reward the ones that are playing great for you. If Gomez was in the lineup, I'm 100% sure he would have been on that 5 on 3. I have no problem with Gionta, but give the chance to the ones that are playing better right now on the pp as well like Pacioretty, Eller, AK, Cole
I don't know if having the PP be a strictly reward mechanism is a safe and viable long term plan. As far a micro goes, you can use it, but not macro. You want your PP to somewhat set in stone because a PP is best when the players develop chemistry with each other and execute it together.

Gomez played like garbage last year, but I still wanted him on the PP because he was effective there for us, both on gaining the zone, and putting up points on the PP. ES and PP are totally different mindsets, and just because one player does well on the latter does not equal he will do it in the former.

Also, the Gionta does not deserve as much as he is getting sentiment is a little short-sighted. The PP at the beginning of the season can also be used as a way to kickstart veterans and get them to put up some points. Since Gionta has been here he has shown he is valuable on the PP, and it shouldn't be automatic to take him off of it because of his notorious slow starts. Gionta is still the best goal scorer on the team, and you want him on the PP.

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10-31-2011, 02:43 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I'd like to see both Kost/Eller get a bit more PP time, and Cammy/Gionta a bit less...

watching the games, it strikes me that both vets are woeful at times on the PP b/c neither has good vision with the puck, and neither are strong passers.

for all of Kost/Eller deficiencies, I think vision/passing is something that they are both better at than those two vets, and it just seems logical that those are strengths you'd want to see more of when in PP situations.

I think it's a bit of JM's tendency to cater to vets ahead of playing players based on merit, something i fundamentally disagree with.

Perhaps as the season progresses, if Eller/Kost can keep up their 5-on-5 play, JM will gradually reward them with more PP time... at least I hope so.

PP units I'd like to see:

Pleks- Cammy- MaxPac
Eller- Kost- Cole

with DD spitting time with Eller/Kost

Gionta really doesn't need to be on our PP play anymore, and if he is the locker room leader he's made out to be, getting his PP time cut down shouldn't be an issue.
I disagree with this. Yes Gio has had a rough start, but he's still tied for second on the team for PP points.

And you raised something interesting with your point about JM catering to veterans. Imo, you have to give vets a chance to get out of their rut and yes that's somewhat unfair for rookies. But that's just the way hierarchy works on a hockey club. There is always going to be a little more leeway to vets, but they've earned those stripes. Those are the guys you need to win and be on top of their game down the road. It sucks for the rookies, and fans who want to see a lot of them, but in the end those rookies will benefit from that and eventually become vets themselves and get that same treatment too.

I can see why it's not the most popular thing, but personally I have no issues with it and I'd have the same mentality as an NHL coach. A happy, producing core of veterans means a strong club and an excellent breeding ground for rookies if you ask me.

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10-31-2011, 02:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I disagree with this. Yes Gio has had a rough start, but he's still tied for second on the team for PP points.

And you raised something interesting with your point about JM catering to veterans. Imo, you have to give vets a chance to get out of their rut and yes that's somewhat unfair for rookies. But that's just the way hierarchy works on a hockey club. There is always going to be a little more leeway to vets, but they've earned those stripes. Those are the guys you need to win and be on top of their game down the road. It sucks for the rookies, and fans who want to see a lot of them, but in the end those rookies will benefit from that and eventually become vets themselves and get that same treatment too.

I can see why it's not the most popular thing, but personally I have no issues with it and I'd have the same mentality as an NHL coach. A happy, producing core of veterans means a strong club and an excellent breeding ground for rookies if you ask me.
It is almost like the whole rookie mentality gets thrown around despite the reality of being negated in almost every aspect of those peoples lives.

Veteran preferential and hierarchy are observed in basically every sphere of peoples' lives, whether that is at the workplace, social networks, governence, or households. Yet for some reason, when it comes to hockey, "nope, everyone should get a fair strike at the can."

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10-31-2011, 03:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
It is almost like the whole rookie mentality gets thrown around despite the reality of being negated in almost every aspect of those peoples lives.

Veteran preferential and hierarchy are observed in basically every sphere of peoples' lives, whether that is at the workplace, social networks, governence, or households. Yet for some reason, when it comes to hockey, "nope, everyone should get a fair strike at the can."
Yeah it's interesting how a lot of people on here see it. In my opinion (I am privy to what goes on on HFBoards but not in actual NHL circles so only my opinion obviously) this is well alive in the NHL and not just on the Habs. There is a well-defined unwritten hierarchy in hockey that players subscribe to completely. See Subban last year drawing the ire of practically everyone even his own teammates at times.

If a coach comes in and starts playing rookies over vets (unless there is no choice) he won't last long imo.

Comes down to being patient with rookies for me. Don't overexpose them and put them in those situations where they can hurt the team. A veteran is much less likely to be affected long-term by say a bad giveaway than a rookie for example.

Sometimes rookies get fewer minutes and get benched not so much because a veteran "deserves" icetime more but because the coach is protecting them and has the overall big picture in mind (i.e the benefit of the team and long-term development of the rookie). I still think benching PK last year was one of the gutsiest coaching moves in a while and I do believe it payed off long-term for both the team and the player for example. That's why I hold JM in high regards because a lot of coaches I've seen in the past in this city wouldn't have dared bench him.

Personally I think JM handles rookie minutes and spreads his icetime really well. He also adapts to specific games and has a knack or reworking lines or PP minutes based on game time observation of who is hot and who is cold. He's really quite good at it.

Anyway, a bit off topic sorry.


Last edited by Jigger77: 10-31-2011 at 03:25 PM.
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Old
10-31-2011, 05:03 PM
  #56
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AK is not a rookie, however. He's been a Hab longer than Gionta, longer than Cammy, longer than Gomez, longer than Moen, longer than MaxPac, longer than DD, hell even longer than Darche.

Everyone agrees that AK is playing well right now, that he is working hard and contributing. Imagine if Cammy was in a good streak and JM deciding to cut his PP time to ZERO. How would Cammy react? Better or worse than AK? Imagine if this happened continuously? Would Cammy be a happy little camper?

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10-31-2011, 07:39 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I don't know if having the PP be a strictly reward mechanism is a safe and viable long term plan. As far a micro goes, you can use it, but not macro. You want your PP to somewhat set in stone because a PP is best when the players develop chemistry with each other and execute it together.

Gomez played like garbage last year, but I still wanted him on the PP because he was effective there for us, both on gaining the zone, and putting up points on the PP. ES and PP are totally different mindsets, and just because one player does well on the latter does not equal he will do it in the former.

Also, the Gionta does not deserve as much as he is getting sentiment is a little short-sighted. The PP at the beginning of the season can also be used as a way to kickstart veterans and get them to put up some points. Since Gionta has been here he has shown he is valuable on the PP, and it shouldn't be automatic to take him off of it because of his notorious slow starts. Gionta is still the best goal scorer on the team, and you want him on the PP.
It's not cause he his a bad player, it's cause we have more option for our pp. Gionta also kills penalties, guys like AK, DD, Pacioretty don't kill penalties so give them the pp time and rest the others. Also I was mostly reffering to the 5 on 3 for the pp, give the chance to Pacioretty who has been our best offensive player so far this season

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10-31-2011, 07:41 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I disagree with this. Yes Gio has had a rough start, but he's still tied for second on the team for PP points.

And you raised something interesting with your point about JM catering to veterans. Imo, you have to give vets a chance to get out of their rut and yes that's somewhat unfair for rookies. But that's just the way hierarchy works on a hockey club. There is always going to be a little more leeway to vets, but they've earned those stripes. Those are the guys you need to win and be on top of their game down the road. It sucks for the rookies, and fans who want to see a lot of them, but in the end those rookies will benefit from that and eventually become vets themselves and get that same treatment too.

I can see why it's not the most popular thing, but personally I have no issues with it and I'd have the same mentality as an NHL coach. A happy, producing core of veterans means a strong club and an excellent breeding ground for rookies if you ask me.
Gionta being 2nd in pp pts doesn't say all that much considering all the other pp wingers have missed time & played fewer minutes...

Where does he rank in pp pts/pp min, that would be more telling...

EDIT ***and just checked, he's got 2pp... 2!?! which actually puts him in a 2-way tie for 4th (not 2nd), but regardless, 2 points in 11 games (averaging 3+min/game) isn't exactly something to be trotted out as proof of his value to the pp, methinks.***



And don't make the mistake of assuming all NHL coaches operate the same way... Several coaches around the league are far mote likely to play players based on merit over veteran status.

Even JM, who gives vets a much greater leash irregardless of effectiveness, ended up using subban, a rookie, far more than several vets... At least once the season was on the line (much like eller &dd, who saw their minutes increase significantly once we got to playoff time.

JM vet leash is not a given league wide, and I'd suspect (pure speculation, and not meant as a "always" since old school guy like brent sutter has no qualms benching vets in favor of superior youth) that the "newer" the coach, the more likely they play who deserves it based on today's performance, not years past.


Last edited by Miller Time: 10-31-2011 at 09:35 PM.
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Old
10-31-2011, 09:44 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
It's not cause he his a bad player, it's cause we have more option for our pp. Gionta also kills penalties, guys like AK, DD, Pacioretty don't kill penalties so give them the pp time and rest the others. Also I was mostly reffering to the 5 on 3 for the pp, give the chance to Pacioretty who has been our best offensive player so far this season
exactly...

it's not so much a "knock" on Gionta, as much as it's wondering why 2 players who seem to clearly have better passing/vision, don't get more of an opportunity.

That Gionta and Cammy are so similar (one-dimensional offensive players, albeit Gionta plays a bit more "gritty" and Cammy a bit more "peripheral"), also begs the question of why have them on the ice at the same time.

Also, I was probably somewhat mistaken to equate it to veteran favoritism (though i do think that is a factor), seeing as DD gets more pp time than every fwd after Pleks.

Martin just doesn't seem as comfortable with A.Kost/Eller, and to a degree that may be warranted, but like last year, better to have them playing those minutes now, making the learning curve adjustments they need to make, then wait until the PO's and throw them out there when it is obvious they are better suited to give the team the offensive zone play needed.

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10-31-2011, 09:45 PM
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Haven't read the thread, but Kostitsyn is not playing on the PP because he's not good at it. He lacks hockey sense, intersity and has trouble using his linemates. Not saying he sucks, but he end Eller should be getting a lot of 5 on 5 icetime, while Desharnais and Cammalleri are PP guys.

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11-01-2011, 04:33 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Haven't read the thread, but Kostitsyn is not playing on the PP because he's not good at it. He lacks hockey sense, intersity and has trouble using his linemates. Not saying he sucks, but he end Eller should be getting a lot of 5 on 5 icetime, while Desharnais and Cammalleri are PP guys.
I'm not sure that AK is not good at playing on the PP. I think it's more the fact that he's misused when he plays on the PP. He's not very good when he's the one playing in front of the net and I could understand Darche being better than him in that role, even Gionta. However, AK has probably the best shot on the team and the PP should be the time when he has more room to be able to use it. He's also very capable of putting slick passes tape-to-tape from across the ice like we've seen him do in the past. The only thing is that when pressured he has a bad tendency to cough up the puck and that's something you just can't do on the PP. I'd like to see him used in ''Kovy's spot'' on the second unit, where he could get more space to work with the puck.

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11-01-2011, 04:46 PM
  #62
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I think guys Like Ak and Eller are better on the rush and not in a set zone play. Just me.

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11-01-2011, 05:13 PM
  #63
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He will have his chance on the PP again I'm not worry

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11-01-2011, 05:48 PM
  #64
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PP is called sugar time. Pro athletes' market worth is determined in large degree by their points production. So they play well, they expect some sugar. AK plays well and doesn't get much PP. If he disappoint, natural.

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11-01-2011, 06:32 PM
  #65
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PP is called sugar time. Pro athletes' market worth is determined in large degree by their points production. So they play well, they expect some sugar. AK plays well and doesn't get much PP. If he disappoint, natural.
There are 10 forwards in the roster that could claim to be worthy of powerplay time and only 6 or 7 regular spots to put them. Inevitably someone is getting disappointed.

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11-01-2011, 07:58 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Haven't read the thread, but Kostitsyn is not playing on the PP because he's not good at it. He lacks hockey sense, intersity and has trouble using his linemates. Not saying he sucks, but he end Eller should be getting a lot of 5 on 5 icetime, while Desharnais and Cammalleri are PP guys.
You are so off base it is hard to take you seriously.

Kostitsyn does not lack hockey sense and in many respects he is ahead of many of his teammates. Intensity? You must be joking. While he does have lapses, too many of his critics focus on that and forget things like his hits and driving to the net. Gomez lacks intensity but it hasn't kept him off the PP. And he has very little trouble using his linemates. Watch a game closely and you will see him make more tape to tape passes than a lot of players on the team.

In my opinion he isn't being used on the PP because there are others ahead of him in the pecking order. Even when the PP was floundering, AK saw little ice time as the existing units were given time to work it out. The only way that AK gets PP time is if one of those in front of him flounder badly for an extended period of time or if there is an injury.

Personally I am happy with his play at ES... and if that is his role, so be it as long as the team is winning. Just don't try to tell me that he lacks hockey sense, is no good on the PP, doesn't use his linemates and other such nonsense.

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11-01-2011, 09:06 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Haven't read the thread, but Kostitsyn is not playing on the PP because he's not good at it. He lacks hockey sense, intersity and has trouble using his linemates. Not saying he sucks, but he end Eller should be getting a lot of 5 on 5 icetime, while Desharnais and Cammalleri are PP guys.
If he lacks hockey sense, intensity (I guess that's what you meant) and has trouble using his linemates, why is he 3rd in points on the team while being 12th in TOI/G? He only has a good shot?

Yeah, of course Desharnais, Cammalleri (even though I don't see how he has more intensity than AK or how he uses his linemates better... and I'm not saying Kostitsyn should take his spot), Plekanec and Pacioretty are probably better on the PP than Kostitsyn. He should still play on the PP before a guy like Darche (nothing against him, I actually love him). Anyway, I guess he will get more PP time later this season.

By the way, I'm pretty sure intensity is more usefull 5vs5, not 5vs4. Kostitsyn is second in points at even strenght. Kovalev wasn't the most intense guy, but he was still the best player on the PP a few years ago (something like 39pts?).

The thing is, since we seem to take a lot of penalties, a player like Kostitsyn often stay on the bench. At least Eller and Moen play on the PK. So if Kostitsyn doesn't get any PP time, it's hard for him to ''get'' into the game, or at least to play at his best. Cammalleri asked JM to put him on the PK because he wanted to be on the ice as much as possible to stay focused.

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