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Trade Proposal: OTT-SJ

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Old
09-23-2005, 11:53 AM
  #51
trentmccleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miser
Toskala for some of D, like Pothier or Schubert makes more sense.
For who? SJ isn't going to give us a promising goalie for a fringe D-man... or even an AHL bus-load of fringe D-men.

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09-23-2005, 10:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Ottawa probably isn't a "cap" team. Was never going to be one. And will never really lose players because of the cap. Because, in the end... Ottawa only has so much money to spend. If you though Ottawa might "splurge" and spend to $40M... then that might mean we lost White due to the cap and Hossa due to budget constraints.
Logic would suggest that you're correct, but in this case, you could be very wrong - assuming Melnyk stays true to his word.

He has said on air (Team 1200) that he doesn't care if the team loses money. He will pay for a winning team, and if that means losing money, he doesn't care. Good thing there's a salary cap - this is the thinking that got the League into trouble in the first place. Of course, this is also assuming that the League was hurting as much as they said they were.

I reinforce the word "assuming" in its use throughout this post.

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09-23-2005, 10:33 PM
  #53
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You guys are majorly overrating Havlat, and majorly underrating Toskala. You guys talk about Havlat like he's a sure thing future MVP. We have no idea what the future holds.


Let me ask you who was on Havlat's line last (active) season

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09-23-2005, 10:36 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HF2002
Logic would suggest that you're correct, but in this case, you could be very wrong - assuming Melnyk stays true to his word.

He has said on air (Team 1200) that he doesn't care if the team loses money. He will pay for a winning team, and if that means losing money, he doesn't care. Good thing there's a salary cap - this is the thinking that got the League into trouble in the first place. Of course, this is also assuming that the League was hurting as much as they said they were.

I reinforce the word "assuming" in its use throughout this post.
Let's be realistic though. Even if Ottawa maxes the cap each year how much money can the team lose. It's not like the team doesn't have good revenues. So Melynyk loses 3 million or 5 million if his payroll is 39 million. Not a big deal. It isn't like in baseball where a team can spend like 80 milllion on payroll and lose 30 or 40 million dollars. The Salary Cap is excellent for a team like Ottawa long term. We are not a small market team in the NHL with the Salary Cap, we are a medium market team, just like all the other Canadian NHL teams except Montreal and Toronto.

I think Ottawa can make a profit while maxing out the cap. If not this year than in future years. Not a profit of $40 million or $50 million like the Leafs will make but a profit nonetheless.

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09-23-2005, 10:37 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan
You guys are majorly overrating Havlat, and majorly underrating Toskala. You guys talk about Havlat like he's a sure thing future MVP. We have no idea what the future holds.


Let me ask you who was Havlat's linemates?
This year it will be Alfredson and Smolinski, or maybe Fisher.

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Old
09-23-2005, 10:42 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule
This year it will be Alfredson and Smolinski, or maybe Fisher.
It helps to have a talent like Alfredsson on your line.

Who does Marleau have on his line?

He was rolling before Sturm, his best linemate, got injured, after that he went on a slump. Plus he probably plays with Chara or Redden or both, who are great offensive threats on defense.

Marleau isnt surrounded by the offensive talent that Havlat has. Let's take that into consideration before we compare them again.

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Old
09-23-2005, 11:11 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan
It helps to have a talent like Alfredsson on your line.

Who does Marleau have on his line?

He was rolling before Sturm, his best linemate, got injured, after that he went on a slump. Plus he probably plays with Chara or Redden or both, who are great offensive threats on defense.

Marleau isnt surrounded by the offensive talent that Havlat has. Let's take that into consideration before we compare them again.
Last year? 3rd line..usually with Chris Neil/Peter Schaefer/Smolinski..the odd time Spezza. So I'm not sure what you're getting at. He missed training camp, played behind Alfy and Hossa on RW, and still played better than both of them at some points. He was a big part of the 1st line PP.

Havlat isn't overrated at all I don't think...I'm sure by the end of this season more people will agree. Playing with top line minutes with good linemates is going to help this year...the first time he'll get that opportunity.

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Old
09-23-2005, 11:23 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan
It helps to have a talent like Alfredsson on your line.

Who does Marleau have on his line?

He was rolling before Sturm, his best linemate, got injured, after that he went on a slump. Plus he probably plays with Chara or Redden or both, who are great offensive threats on defense.

Marleau isnt surrounded by the offensive talent that Havlat has. Let's take that into consideration before we compare them again.
He never played with Alfie before on a line, but he will this year. He played on the third line with Fisher as his centre and as his LW it was Smolinski or Schaeffer I think.

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Old
09-23-2005, 11:25 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan
It helps to have a talent like Alfredsson on your line.

Who does Marleau have on his line?

He was rolling before Sturm, his best linemate, got injured, after that he went on a slump. Plus he probably plays with Chara or Redden or both, who are great offensive threats on defense.

Marleau isnt surrounded by the offensive talent that Havlat has. Let's take that into consideration before we compare them again.
Also he averaged less than 17 min a game. This year I bet he plays about 19-20 mins per game.

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Old
09-24-2005, 12:41 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan
You guys are majorly overrating Havlat, and majorly underrating Toskala. You guys talk about Havlat like he's a sure thing future MVP. We have no idea what the future holds.

Let me ask you who was on Havlat's line last (active) season
Ummm .... No. You are the one overrating Toskala and underrating Havlat.

As some other posters have pointed out, Havlat played ~17 mins per game last season, on a 3rd line with a mixture of players including Neil, Smolinski, Schaefer, and Fisher. But, he still put up 68 points in 68 games. There were only 9 players with respectable overall stats that accomplished a 1.00 PPG or higher in the entire league and he was one of them. That list includes names like St.Louis, Kovalchuk, Sakic, Naslund, and Hossa.

Havlat is far and away the best player in the trade. Not enough to get both Marleau and Toskala on his own. But when one of the 9 most productive point producers in the league and a RSL league MVP (I think) are offered in exchange for a reasonably good 1st line center and a backup goalie I don't understand how anyone can say SJ gets the short end of the stick.

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09-24-2005, 01:01 AM
  #61
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The mere fact that SJ fans think they're getting ripped and Ottawa fans think they're getting ripped is a very good indicator that the trade is actually fairly balanced.

It even seems to make a bit of sense for the Sens, they could use a center like Marleau (Spezza and Marleau down the middle would be sick for years and years to come) and a goalie like Toskala is awesome for when Hasek retires either as a starter if Emery doesn't pan out, or a really solid backup if he does.

Can't see the sharks going for it though. Havlat is great, but Marleau is really the core of their offence right now. I just don't see him being moved. It's not that it's a bad value, just that the Sharks are better off keeping their captain and top line center.

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Old
09-24-2005, 09:47 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeaky
The mere fact that SJ fans think they're getting ripped and Ottawa fans think they're getting ripped is a very good indicator that the trade is actually fairly balanced.

It even seems to make a bit of sense for the Sens, they could use a center like Marleau (Spezza and Marleau down the middle would be sick for years and years to come) and a goalie like Toskala is awesome for when Hasek retires either as a starter if Emery doesn't pan out, or a really solid backup if he does.

Can't see the sharks going for it though. Havlat is great, but Marleau is really the core of their offence right now. I just don't see him being moved. It's not that it's a bad value, just that the Sharks are better off keeping their captain and top line center.
Hossa's trade surprised most people, so from here on in I won't be surprised at anything.

I totally agree with everything you said. As an Ottawa fan, I'd do the trade. That being said, today Havlat is better than Marleau in offensive skill. And two years from now Havlat will be uncomparable to Marleau given his progression.

Marleau brings to Ottawa what I want, and I think management wants. Havlat is a flake, Kaig is a flake, more flakes in Russia with Ottawa owning their rights.

In 6 years our flakes haven't won the cup yet. Marleau is much more valuable in the playoffs...going off of pure desire.

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Old
09-24-2005, 07:29 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by The Senator
Ummm .... No. You are the one overrating Toskala and underrating Havlat.

As some other posters have pointed out, Havlat played ~17 mins per game last season, on a 3rd line with a mixture of players including Neil, Smolinski, Schaefer, and Fisher. But, he still put up 68 points in 68 games. There were only 9 players with respectable overall stats that accomplished a 1.00 PPG or higher in the entire league and he was one of them. That list includes names like St.Louis, Kovalchuk, Sakic, Naslund, and Hossa.

Havlat is far and away the best player in the trade. Not enough to get both Marleau and Toskala on his own. But when one of the 9 most productive point producers in the league and a RSL league MVP (I think) are offered in exchange for a reasonably good 1st line center and a backup goalie I don't understand how anyone can say SJ gets the short end of the stick.

30 out of Havlat's 68 points last NHL season came on the first unit power play, so the whole 3rd line teammates and only 17 minutes per games excuses/justifications only go so far. He does have amazing offensive potential, but let's see how the switch to the LW and the (most likely) better dmen he will be facing affect him, before we hand him the Art Ross trophy.

I think most Sharks fans don't like this trade because we really don't see Toskala as a "good backup" as many people seem to think so. Most of us think that Toskala is as good as Nabakov and his numbers last year support that argument. The problem is Toskala hasn't had a chance to show it over a full season because he is stuck playing behind Nabby. If Nabby gets hurt for an extended period this year, then I think Toskala will continue to show his real worth.

Sharks fans don't like the idea of trading Marleau, not because we think he is some kind of god, but because we have no center that could possibly step into his role. And an unproven Kaigorodov would do nothing to help that. The Sharks core of players are starting to enter their primes, so we have no need for any rebuilding. Trading Marleau puts a big hole in the lineup. So whoever used the Heatly-Hossa trade as an example, it doesn't compare, since it was a swap of RWs.

So while the overall trade value might be close, the individual parts don't make much sense for the Sharks. Is that so hard to understand?

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Old
09-24-2005, 07:37 PM
  #64
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Ottawa already have Emery and Havlat>marleau

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Old
09-24-2005, 08:00 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
30 out of Havlat's 68 points last NHL season came on the first unit power play, so the whole 3rd line teammates and only 17 minutes per games excuses/justifications only go so far. He does have amazing offensive potential, but let's see how the switch to the LW and the (most likely) better dmen he will be facing affect him, before we hand him the Art Ross trophy.
The arguments would only go so far if we were comparing him to a 3rd line player. Then you could say "well he isn't really a 3rd line player cause he get 1st PP time".

The thing is we're comparing him to the top end talent in the league like Kovalchuk, Hossa, Naslund, Sakic, and St.Louis; all of whom got 1st PP minutes PLUS an extra ~5 minutes of ice time per game.

I understand why SJ wouldn't want to trade Marleau though. It's like asking Ottawa to trade Spezza and Emery for Gaborik. Although in current value it might be close to fair I think you'd be hard pressed to find an Ottawa fan that would agree to that. That's why I included Kaigorodov as an overpayment of sorts in order to ease the pain of letting Marleau and Toskala go, but I guess in SJ fans eyes it just isn't enough.

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Old
09-24-2005, 09:22 PM
  #66
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I think its a pretty fair deal. I'm a really big Havlat fan, he's one of my favorite players, and he will put up big,big numbers in the near future. I'm also a Sharks fan so I'm pretty torn.

The big problem with this deal is Toskala, its true his value isn't that high right now, nor should it be, but he is not your typical promising backup. Toskala is better than Kipper (who will come back down to earth this year, but is still a fine netminder,) the Sharks know this, the rest of the league doesn't. Also the Sharks need Vesa as a bargaining chip as they try to lock up Nabokov long term. So it'd be stupid to trade him at this point.

Also Doug Wilson is one of these charachter, team work, loyalty gms. I think he overdoes it at times (see lack of off-season acquisitions.) He proably wouldn't even consider a deal like this, because Patty is his guy - the captain, and the issues with Vesa, though he should.

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Old
09-24-2005, 11:30 PM
  #67
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So what is the going rate at the moment for backup goalies? A third or a fourth. No but he is a REALLY good back up... umm maybe early third round??? First off, just because both sides think they are getting screwed, does not mean its a good deal. If I said that Nabakov was not worth Pothier, that would hardly make the trade even. It was just make me a giant homer.

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09-25-2005, 02:14 AM
  #68
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That trade is a lateral move at best and you simply don't do something like that with your star players. Unless you have serious problems with them, of course, but that isn't the case here.

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Old
09-25-2005, 02:33 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champben2002
So what is the going rate at the moment for backup goalies? A third or a fourth. No but he is a REALLY good back up... umm maybe early third round??? First off, just because both sides think they are getting screwed, does not mean its a good deal. If I said that Nabakov was not worth Pothier, that would hardly make the trade even. It was just make me a giant homer.

The Sharks got a 2nd rounder for a majorly struggling backup, Kiprusoff. So I think your a little off.

Toskala isnt "just a good backup" He's a great goalie stuck behind a proven superstar goalie in Nabokov.

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Old
09-25-2005, 10:37 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan
The Sharks got a 2nd rounder for a majorly struggling backup, Kiprusoff. So I think your a little off.

Toskala isnt "just a good backup" He's a great goalie stuck behind a proven superstar goalie in Nabokov.
Nailed it

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Old
09-25-2005, 11:09 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan

Toskala isnt "just a good backup" He's a great goalie stuck behind a proven superstar goalie in Nabokov.
So Nabokov is a proven amazing goalie,that doesn't get to play because he's just stuck behind a better goalie?

Yet you say Havlat is still a ? When he was one of 10 ppg guys in the nhl last season, after missing training camp too.

You yourself said no one can tell what the future holds, so why is it your teams player is automatically destined for success, yet you bring Havlats accomplishments down.

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Old
11-08-2005, 04:58 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule
If worst comes to worse we could sign Tugnutt for the league minimum. If he is in shape he could be a short term solution for a month or 2 during the season. I'd rather have Tugnutt than Billy Thompson or a very young Jeff Glass as my goalie this season.

I completely agree.

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