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Old
11-02-2011, 08:25 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Neal isn't out there floating around cherry picking for goals though. He has been one of our best players without the puck too. I'm not saying Staal isn't above Neal, but it's not easy in my eyes.

I'd also factor in that Staal is the third best center on a team full of centers while Neal is the best winger on a team full of centers.

In any event, I expect us to keep both.
Also if worse comes to worse, even though nobody wants to hear it, they could revisit the Staalkin idea. If they want to keep them all, but it causes us to not be able to field a team that's 3 centers deep, I don't think it would be a bad idea to go back to it.

This season Staal has shown flashes of what he could be if he continues developing and finding consistency to his game. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of player paired up with Malkin. Especially considering they've looked pretty good together in the past for brief stints.

XXX - Crosby - Neal
XXX - Staal - Malkin

Most teams would kill to have their top two lines have those 4 players.

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11-02-2011, 08:46 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SteelTownFever View Post
Also if worse comes to worse, even though nobody wants to hear it, they could revisit the Staalkin idea. If they want to keep them all, but it causes us to not be able to field a team that's 3 centers deep, I don't think it would be a bad idea to go back to it.

This season Staal has shown flashes of what he could be if he continues developing and finding consistency to his game. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of player paired up with Malkin. Especially considering they've looked pretty good together in the past for brief stints.

XXX - Crosby - Neal
XXX - Staal - Malkin

Most teams would kill to have their top two lines have those 4 players.
Plus Kunitz and Kennedy. You have Jeffrey, Cooke, Dupuis signed for the 3rd line. Add Tangradi and Bennett as well.

This team is set up incredibly well.

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11-02-2011, 09:23 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by WVP View Post
Plus Kunitz and Kennedy. You have Jeffrey, Cooke, Dupuis signed for the 3rd line. Add Tangradi and Bennett as well.

This team is set up incredibly well.
Exactly. There is no reason why we couldn't keep everybody and still field a very competitive team.

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11-02-2011, 09:34 AM
  #79
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Tons of flexibility, that much is for sure, and guys are on the way.

I'm actually more excited for what our blueline could become than what our offense could become. We have the pieces coming together to have one of the deepest, most mobile bluelines in the league.

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11-02-2011, 09:39 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Only way he take a cap hit cut is if you're giving him obscene amounts of money at the front of the deal. And I'm talking max you could give in the first 3-5 years of the deal.

See: Richards, Brad
Yeah, but here's the problem. Is Malkin going to take a cut on a 5 or 6 year deal? When his deal is up, he's going to be entering the age range that typically is called a player's 'prime'. A short term deal with a pay cut in his prime? I don't see it, even if the money is front loaded.

The only way that I could see it is if you were talking like a rest of career deal. He'll be about to turn 28 when his current deal expires. For something like a 13 year, 100M deal (assuming it's allowed under the new CBA), something that takes him to age 41, is front loaded, provides NTC for most of the length, and gives him more money than he'll ever need for the rest of his life, then maybe . . . it would be an average annual cap hit of like 7.7M.

But, that's the only pay cut scenario that I could see.

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11-02-2011, 09:41 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SteelTownFever View Post
Also if worse comes to worse, even though nobody wants to hear it, they could revisit the Staalkin idea. If they want to keep them all, but it causes us to not be able to field a team that's 3 centers deep, I don't think it would be a bad idea to go back to it.

This season Staal has shown flashes of what he could be if he continues developing and finding consistency to his game. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of player paired up with Malkin. Especially considering they've looked pretty good together in the past for brief stints.

XXX - Crosby - Neal
XXX - Staal - Malkin

Most teams would kill to have their top two lines have those 4 players.
All that money for Malkin and Staal, which represents a commitment to the three center model, to move Malkin from a position where he's shown before that he's worth the big bucks to a position where he's never shown that? Just asking . . .

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11-02-2011, 09:42 AM
  #82
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My list in order of priority:

1. Sid
2. Flower
3. Geno
4. Letang
5. Staal

That's your core. Neal comes next . . .

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11-02-2011, 09:44 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
My list in order of priority:

1. Sid
2. Flower
3. Geno
4. Letang
5. Staal

That's your core. Neal comes next . . .
I'm surprised that you've put MAF in front of Geno..........I wouldn't.

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11-02-2011, 09:44 AM
  #84
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I think Crosby can ask for anything up to the limit but I don't think he will as he's not that kind of guy. He makes most of his money off sponsors anyway and leaving Pittsburgh will hurt some brand recognition he has built up. This is why I think it's fair to say Malkin/Crosby will still make equal amounts on their next deal and their price will not go up percentage wise.

I believe the rest will be resigned FAR before their contract expires and they won't any time testing the open market. I don't think Shero wants to trade or remove any key members from the best team in the NHL (when healthy).

That said... Fleury, Staal, Letang, Malkin and Crosby are locks and Neal is looking to join that category very soon. It's nice having potentially 5 allstar callibur players on your team!

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11-02-2011, 09:45 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Tons of flexibility, that much is for sure, and guys are on the way.

I'm actually more excited for what our blueline could become than what our offense could become. We have the pieces coming together to have one of the deepest, most mobile bluelines in the league.
And Shero has set it up to trade the bigger dollar players on the blueline when the time comes. Gologoski is the blueprint.

How does Shero come up with the cap space to keep Sid, Geno, Flower, Letang, Neal, and Staal in the next three years? You could be talking 8M in collective cap hit increases. Well, half of it will come from trading Martin and using Despres/Morrow, and the other half will come from the cap going up.

If any of the wingers Shero has drafted also pan out, it goes from a well-laid and fairly well-executed plan to a perfectly executed plan.

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11-02-2011, 09:47 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by laufer72 View Post
I'm surprised that you've put MAF in front of Geno..........I wouldn't.
That was the tough one. Sid is the best player in hockey. He sells tickets. He makes the Pens a cup contender.

Geno AND Flower, when they're on their games, they take the Pens from cup contender to cup favorite. I think you need both. You can debate who's 2 and who's 3, but they're the second tier of the core IMHO.

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11-02-2011, 09:50 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Yeah, but here's the problem. Is Malkin going to take a cut on a 5 or 6 year deal? When his deal is up, he's going to be entering the age range that typically is called a player's 'prime'. A short term deal with a pay cut in his prime? I don't see it, even if the money is front loaded.

The only way that I could see it is if you were talking like a rest of career deal. He'll be about to turn 28 when his current deal expires. For something like a 13 year, 100M deal (assuming it's allowed under the new CBA), something that takes him to age 41, is front loaded, provides NTC for most of the length, and gives him more money than he'll ever need for the rest of his life, then maybe . . . it would be an average annual cap hit of like 7.7M.

But, that's the only pay cut scenario that I could see.
Yeah, obviously what I was alluding to was that he would be signing a deal that would essentially see him in a Pens uni until he retires.

Maybe a 7-9 year deal? That would take him to 35-37.

Maybe a 9 year deal, 12, 12, 12, 12, 7, 5, 5, 5, 4.

He would be making 12 million a year through his prime.

Cap hit of 8.2

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11-02-2011, 09:58 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Tons of flexibility, that much is for sure, and guys are on the way.

I'm actually more excited for what our blueline could become than what our offense could become. We have the pieces coming together to have one of the deepest, most mobile bluelines in the league.
Here's something I just threw together on CapGeek (2012-13 season) just going off of what we have currently on our roster, and some of the prospects we have on the way that could realistically be a regular in 2 years.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($9.000m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.650m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.850m) / Jordan Staal ($5.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Zach Sill ($0.550m) / Joe Vitale ($0.700m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)

DEFENSEMEN
Brooks Orpik ($3.750m) / Kristopher Letang ($3.500m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.535m)

GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m) / Brad Thiessen ($0.600m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $66,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,500,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $5,800,000

Notice the cap space is $5.8M (assuming at least $2M salary cap increase). With that we could add some better wingers in free agency.

I wasn't really sure about the players on the 4th line, but their salary cap hits are the important part. Tangradi will probably have a reduced cap hit like Jeffrey, and he better be on the team by that point. Then Bennett probably won't be on the 1st line, but if they use that cap space to sign a better winger, then they could move him down to the 3rd line and possibly not re-sign Dupuis.

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Old
11-02-2011, 09:58 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Legendary66 View Post
I think Crosby can ask for anything up to the limit but I don't think he will as he's not that kind of guy. He makes most of his money off sponsors anyway and leaving Pittsburgh will hurt some brand recognition he has built up. This is why I think it's fair to say Malkin/Crosby will still make equal amounts on their next deal and their price will not go up percentage wise.

I believe the rest will be resigned FAR before their contract expires and they won't any time testing the open market. I don't think Shero wants to trade or remove any key members from the best team in the NHL (when healthy).

That said... Fleury, Staal, Letang, Malkin and Crosby are locks and Neal is looking to join that category very soon. It's nice having potentially 5 allstar callibur players on your team!
Leave Sid out of it. He gets what he wants, although I don't think he'll insist upon the max (he may ask for a deal where his cap hit takes him a few dollars above Ovechkin). After him, if you want to keep the four other guys, you're going to need all of them to leave something on the table:

1. Unless a rest of career contract, you can't ask Malkin to take a pay cut. I mean, you can, and it would be about the most shocking thing ever if he did, but I think he'd be content to stay at the same cap hit. The thing to remember, especially if you ask him to take a pay cut, is that someone out there will offer him at or damn near the max. He's a UFA. If Ray Shero can't tie him up the offseason before his deal expires, then I expect him to be dealt when the NTC window isn't in effect.

2. In a fair world, Flower could push 7M+ from some team. BUT, Flower is the Rodney Dangerfield of goalies. It would be a crap shoot for him, although I personally think some team will go around 7M in a free market. I suspect he'll resign, if he's willing to leave money on the table, for a 6M cap hit or slightly above.

3. Staal is tricky. Some dumb ass team will happily give him 6.5M or so per year, and he may want it. If he does, then I expect trade talk to start this summer (it's when the window to extend Staal opens, so Shero will know the score). I can see Shero going to 5M per, maybe more, depending upon the deal's length.

4. Letang is going to be really hard. He's on a great deal for the Pens now, a 3.5M hit. Honestly, I could see some team coming close to doubling that number when he hits free agency. I'm guessing Shero's number will be around his target for Staal.

Basically, what you're looking at, then, is each guy leaving 1-2M per on the table vis-a-vis what they could get on the open market. Will they? Who knows. But, this is the only way you keep all five and have a chance to have enough support pieces.

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11-02-2011, 10:00 AM
  #90
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Sill could definitely be a Matt Cooke clone in the making.

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11-02-2011, 10:01 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
All that money for Malkin and Staal, which represents a commitment to the three center model, to move Malkin from a position where he's shown before that he's worth the big bucks to a position where he's never shown that? Just asking . . .
I said if worse comes to worse, and he has shown that he can play wing in the past.

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11-02-2011, 10:01 AM
  #92
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If I were the Pens' GM, I'd have every tenth man killed for dereliction of duty, just to prove a point.


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11-02-2011, 10:01 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by SteelTownFever View Post
Here's something I just threw together on CapGeek (2012-13 season) just going off of what we have currently on our roster, and some of the prospects we have on the way that could realistically be a regular in 2 years.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($9.000m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.650m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.850m) / Jordan Staal ($5.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Zach Sill ($0.550m) / Joe Vitale ($0.700m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)

DEFENSEMEN
Brooks Orpik ($3.750m) / Kristopher Letang ($3.500m)
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.535m)

GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m) / Brad Thiessen ($0.600m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $66,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,500,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $5,800,000

Notice the cap space is $5.8M (assuming at least $2M salary cap increase). With that we could add some better wingers in free agency.
Oh, this is absolutely doable for next year. Then, you've got pay raises for Sid, Staal, and Flower for 2013-2014. Enough space again. Then, you've got pay raises yet again before the 2014-2015 season for Malkin (who I don't think will ask for one as long as there is no cut) and Letang (who will be tricky).

Look, it's absolutely doable assuming the core five guys are willing to leave money on the table. At some point, you'll have to move Martin and/or sacrifice in terms of the dollars spent of your bottom five or six forwards, but that's better than the alternative.

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11-02-2011, 10:02 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
And Shero has set it up to trade the bigger dollar players on the blueline when the time comes. Gologoski is the blueprint.

How does Shero come up with the cap space to keep Sid, Geno, Flower, Letang, Neal, and Staal in the next three years? You could be talking 8M in collective cap hit increases. Well, half of it will come from trading Martin and using Despres/Morrow, and the other half will come from the cap going up.

If any of the wingers Shero has drafted also pan out, it goes from a well-laid and fairly well-executed plan to a perfectly executed plan.
See my proposed lineup and the salary cap space that it still has to add players.

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11-02-2011, 10:02 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by SteelTownFever View Post
I said if worse comes to worse, and he has shown that he can play wing in the past.
My bad . . .

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11-02-2011, 10:03 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Oh, this is absolutely doable for next year. Then, you've got pay raises for Sid, Staal, and Flower for 2013-2014. Enough space again. Then, you've got pay raises yet again before the 2014-2015 season for Malkin (who I don't think will ask for one as long as there is no cut) and Letang (who will be tricky).

Look, it's absolutely doable assuming the core five guys are willing to leave money on the table. At some point, you'll have to move Martin and/or sacrifice in terms of the dollars spent of your bottom five or six forwards, but that's better than the alternative.
Sorry I meant to say it was for 2013-14 because it would be the year that Sid is on his new contract.

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11-02-2011, 10:05 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Yeah, obviously what I was alluding to was that he would be signing a deal that would essentially see him in a Pens uni until he retires.

Maybe a 7-9 year deal? That would take him to 35-37.

Maybe a 9 year deal, 12, 12, 12, 12, 7, 5, 5, 5, 4.

He would be making 12 million a year through his prime.

Cap hit of 8.2
I could see your 9 year deal. I could even see one longer, depending upon what the CBA allows.

The only fear in that is the knee and other injuries. I'm not in the 'Malkin is injury prone' camp, because Sid actually has been more 'injury prone' than Malkin the last four years.

At the same time, it makes a long term deal a gamble.

I just think you have to go long term. I don't see Malkin taking a 5-6 year deal without a bump UNLESS Sid does the same . . . a 9+ year deal, you can make a case, as you've said.

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11-02-2011, 10:11 AM
  #98
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I just don't see Shero doing the long term deal. 7 year deal is the longest I see him going. But who knows. Maybe Lemieux pressures him to do it for Sid and Geno.

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11-02-2011, 10:11 AM
  #99
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One more question/consideration: I believe that new deals for Sid, Staal, and Flower, which can be signed this offseason, a year before their deals expire, will be governed by the existing CBA.

Could anyone else see Shero trying a really long term deal with Staal with a 5.5M (give or take) cap hit, maybe something like a front loaded 17 year, 90-95M deal (a deal that takes him to age 41).

Those type of deals likely will be gone under the next CBA, when the window to extend Geno and Tanger opens.

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11-02-2011, 10:12 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
One more question/consideration: I believe that new deals for Sid, Staal, and Flower, which can be signed this offseason, a year before their deals expire, will be governed by the existing CBA.

Could anyone else see Shero trying a really long term deal with Staal with a 5.5M (give or take) cap hit, maybe something like a front loaded 17 year, 90-95M deal (a deal that takes him to age 41).

Those type of deals likely will be gone under the next CBA, when the window to extend Geno and Tanger opens.
No. As stated above, I don't think it's in Shero's makeup to do these long term deals.

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