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11-01-2011, 04:03 PM
  #126
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Your opinion: Sweden - Sweden - Sweden - Sweden

Facts:

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Old
11-01-2011, 04:06 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course i knew that KHL/NHL politics has lessened the total Russian draft pick count. Do you ever bother to read? It's a shame your reading isn't as good as your writing.

I've stated time and time again that the political environment is the major factor for the dwindling numbers. But instead you decide to make as many asinine interpretations as possible.

I don't need a lecture on what the Russian factor is. You aren't enlightening me on the subject. I personally believe the NHL is not wise with the "Russian factor" policy, because any major or significant Russia talent has as of yet, failed not to make the journey to North America. If the Russian prospects are good enough and talented enough, generally they will come to North America. The bigger issue at hand is patently A) The flight factor, which is heavily linked with B) Ability to manage and develop talent. Clearly teams like Columbus, Phoenix and Nashville either can't develop players, or can't manage them, thus the flight factor becomes significant. This is where IMO the true issue with drafting Russian players actually is. A team like Columbus under current management shouldn't bother drafting Russian players ; it will fail.





Reading comprehension. I have countless times said that it has been a major factor. Yet instead you pretend you didn't see the text so your little argument makes apparent "sense". All i have said, is that outside of the major reason, i think it is slightly naive to suggest a very large and obvious statistical trend can be based upon one single event/cause. I assume you will all ignore this point in venture to feel secure, but statistics mean many things, and every other national programme has the NHL draft as an excellent measurement for the healt of their youth system. Russia is patently different, yet we cannot decide to create an exclusive set fo rules that completely alienate Russia from common measurements of analysis. To me, Sweden has produced greater depth in prospects in the past 4-5 years, and i'd venture to say that even if Russia had the same political stance with the NHL as Sweden, they would have few draft totals. In my opinion, the Swedish draft classes have simply been deeper.

Sometimes it can appear like that because more swedes get drafted, there are a lot of very talented Russians who no one ever hears of.

The past world junior team has shown this.

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Old
11-01-2011, 05:55 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bure View Post
Sometimes it can appear like that because more swedes get drafted, there are a lot of very talented Russians who no one ever hears of.

The past world junior team has shown this.
I'd be intrigued to see a list of the Top 15-20 Russian Forwards forwards from the last draft and compare it to Sweden. What i suspect is Russia has the slight edge at the very top, but Sweden wins easily as the list goes on.

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11-01-2011, 05:58 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Your opinion: Sweden - Sweden - Sweden - Sweden

Facts:
Skills.

Seems you are transcending into a Ego-centrict Canadian poster. Good for you.

Haha gotta love of the state of denial and lack of willingess to engage in any self-critical conversation. "WE WON THE EVENT, THEREFORE, THERE IS NO WEAKNESS!!!!"

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11-01-2011, 07:23 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course i knew that KHL/NHL politics has lessened the total Russian draft pick count. Do you ever bother to read? It's a shame your reading isn't as good as your writing.

I've stated time and time again that the political environment is the major factor for the dwindling numbers. But instead you decide to make as many asinine interpretations as possible.

I don't need a lecture on what the Russian factor is. You aren't enlightening me on the subject. I personally believe the NHL is not wise with the "Russian factor" policy, because any major or significant Russia talent has as of yet, failed not to make the journey to North America. If the Russian prospects are good enough and talented enough, generally they will come to North America. The bigger issue at hand is patently A) The flight factor, which is heavily linked with B) Ability to manage and develop talent. Clearly teams like Columbus, Phoenix and Nashville either can't develop players, or can't manage them, thus the flight factor becomes significant. This is where IMO the true issue with drafting Russian players actually is. A team like Columbus under current management shouldn't bother drafting Russian players ; it will fail.





Reading comprehension. I have countless times said that it has been a major factor. Yet instead you pretend you didn't see the text so your little argument makes apparent "sense". All i have said, is that outside of the major reason, i think it is slightly naive to suggest a very large and obvious statistical trend can be based upon one single event/cause. I assume you will all ignore this point in venture to feel secure, but statistics mean many things, and every other national programme has the NHL draft as an excellent measurement for the healt of their youth system. Russia is patently different, yet we cannot decide to create an exclusive set fo rules that completely alienate Russia from common measurements of analysis. To me, Sweden has produced greater depth in prospects in the past 4-5 years, and i'd venture to say that even if Russia had the same political stance with the NHL as Sweden, they would have few draft totals. In my opinion, the Swedish draft classes have simply been deeper.
As you find yourself painted into a corner, with your shallow arguments exposed, you seem to have reverted to personal attacks and emotionalism. You are entitled to your opinions, such as they are, so there seems to be little to gain from beating a dead pony! Feel free to continue to believe that Sweden, a nation of 8 million people, has managed to develop a vast and endless array of great talents on ice. Few here will buy that argument.

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Old
11-02-2011, 03:32 AM
  #131
Alessandro Seren Rosso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Skills.

Seems you are transcending into a Ego-centrict Canadian poster. Good for you.

Haha gotta love of the state of denial and lack of willingess to engage in any self-critical conversation. "WE WON THE EVENT, THEREFORE, THERE IS NO WEAKNESS!!!!"
Lol, I was tired yesterday night.
However, I never said "there is no weakness", if you search my posts you can find I always criticized our way to deal with junior hockey and still it has many problems, even if it's getting better and we're rebounding back from the '90s crisis.
I explained you all the reasons why I didn't agree with you about the WJC and your supposed drain of hockey talent from Russia. With that being said, in the mean time we won a WJC in Canada with an epic final game, two things that your superior Sweden couldn't do. Facts do go against your theory and the pic I posted proves that.

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11-02-2011, 05:03 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Of course i knew that KHL/NHL politics has lessened the total Russian draft pick count. Do you ever bother to read? It's a shame your reading isn't as good as your writing.

I've stated time and time again that the political environment is the major factor for the dwindling numbers. But instead you decide to make as many asinine interpretations as possible.

I don't need a lecture on what the Russian factor is. You aren't enlightening me on the subject. I personally believe the NHL is not wise with the "Russian factor" policy, because any major or significant Russia talent has as of yet, failed not to make the journey to North America. If the Russian prospects are good enough and talented enough, generally they will come to North America. The bigger issue at hand is patently A) The flight factor, which is heavily linked with B) Ability to manage and develop talent. Clearly teams like Columbus, Phoenix and Nashville either can't develop players, or can't manage them, thus the flight factor becomes significant. This is where IMO the true issue with drafting Russian players actually is. A team like Columbus under current management shouldn't bother drafting Russian players ; it will fail.





Reading comprehension. I have countless times said that it has been a major factor. Yet instead you pretend you didn't see the text so your little argument makes apparent "sense". All i have said, is that outside of the major reason, i think it is slightly naive to suggest a very large and obvious statistical trend can be based upon one single event/cause. I assume you will all ignore this point in venture to feel secure, but statistics mean many things, and every other national programme has the NHL draft as an excellent measurement for the healt of their youth system. Russia is patently different, yet we cannot decide to create an exclusive set fo rules that completely alienate Russia from common measurements of analysis. To me, Sweden has produced greater depth in prospects in the past 4-5 years, and i'd venture to say that even if Russia had the same political stance with the NHL as Sweden, they would have few draft totals. In my opinion, the Swedish draft classes have simply been deeper.
Can we also then deduct that Canada, US, Sweden, Finland, Czech republic have significantly less depth than Russia - Based on KHL Draft?? Mind you, KHL being the 2nd best league in the world, there has to be merit, if what you're saying makes any sense.

As Russian fans, we'll readily acknowledge that our development program had major setbacks. The difference is, those setback come from being 1st or sometimes 2nd best in the world for many decades, thus lowering our standard to 2nd,3rd sometime 4th can seem like a big deal.

Last year's win also highlights a trend that Russian hockey is picking up. That is a fact, proven by results since 2007(ish). The trend is: returning to the wealth of good depth players, which have helped leaders like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko win the WJC.

This year's WJC team looks to be even deeper than last years, although younger. We'll see how that turns out.

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11-02-2011, 09:30 AM
  #133
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Can we also then deduct that Canada, US, Sweden, Finland, Czech republic have significantly less depth than Russia - Based on KHL Draft?? Mind you, KHL being the 2nd best league in the world, there has to be merit, if what you're saying makes any sense.
Thanks for this words.. I agree with you. NHL, KHL, Elitserien, SM-Liiga etc are private senior leagues so they can not be objective. They are always biased. Only IIHF can judge develeping programme of countries (via a study or WC) not NHL or KHL draft. I understand why many fans believe that NHL draft is authoritative.. you know NHL PR for many years.

Btw I drafted 15 Brasilians into my street hockey team yesterday.. does it mean that Brasil has great developing programme in ice hockey? Of course not.

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Old
11-02-2011, 10:18 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Lol, I was tired yesterday night.
However, I never said "there is no weakness", if you search my posts you can find I always criticized our way to deal with junior hockey and still it has many problems, even if it's getting better and we're rebounding back from the '90s crisis.
I explained you all the reasons why I didn't agree with you about the WJC and your supposed drain of hockey talent from Russia. With that being said, in the mean time we won a WJC in Canada with an epic final game, two things that your superior Sweden couldn't do. Facts do go against your theory and the pic I posted proves that.
Well said, Alessandro! It is easy for people to lose sight of how well Russia has rebuilt the hockey program after the complete loss of funding and the absence of any support that was experienced in the 90's. The 90's were devastating for all Russian sport, not just hockey, but Russian hockey is more visible in many ways than other sports. It's just hard to understand how someone could criticize the depth and quality of Russian junior hockey while looking at a photograph of the Russian team celebrating with Gold Medals draped around their necks.

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11-02-2011, 10:26 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Can we also then deduct that Canada, US, Sweden, Finland, Czech republic have significantly less depth than Russia - Based on KHL Draft?? Mind you, KHL being the 2nd best league in the world, there has to be merit, if what you're saying makes any sense.

As Russian fans, we'll readily acknowledge that our development program had major setbacks. The difference is, those setback come from being 1st or sometimes 2nd best in the world for many decades, thus lowering our standard to 2nd,3rd sometime 4th can seem like a big deal.

Last year's win also highlights a trend that Russian hockey is picking up. That is a fact, proven by results since 2007(ish). The trend is: returning to the wealth of good depth players, which have helped leaders like Kuznetsov and Tarasenko win the WJC.

This year's WJC team looks to be even deeper than last years, although younger. We'll see how that turns out.
Great post, Fulcrum! It is easy for a "Russian decline" to be overestimated in someone's mind based on the fact that in the 70's, 80's and early 90's, Russia was at the top of the heap along with Canada, vying for Gold in youth tournaments between the two teams. Teams like Sweden, the Czechs and Finland rarely even challenged Canada and Russia for top rankings. So when the quality of youth hockey began to decline in the 90's based on huge poverty and the loss of all financial support for hockey, it seemed like a much bigger change than it really was for Russia to drop to 3rd or 4th place. The talent has always been there - its just that there have been times when the support systems were missing to permit development. Thankfully, it seems as though the support systems are better than ever now. It may take time to show it, but the system is in place.

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11-02-2011, 12:14 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
I'd be intrigued to see a list of the Top 15-20 Russian Forwards forwards from the last draft and compare it to Sweden. What i suspect is Russia has the slight edge at the very top, but Sweden wins easily as the list goes on.
My opinion is at the moment Sweden has one of the best development programs if not the best. This is shown by the large number of quality prospects they produce with such a small population.

I also believe that Russia has made great strides into improving their junior system and it as shown recently.

Like I said before many talented Russians are completely unknown because the Russian system is not as closely followed by other countries such as Canada, USA, Sweden etc.

The only prospects that are recognized are the very talented ones so there is no baisis comparing both propect pools in a whole.

The only way to really compare prospect pools IMO is international tournaments.

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11-02-2011, 12:44 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
As you find yourself painted into a corner, with your shallow arguments exposed, you seem to have reverted to personal attacks and emotionalism. You are entitled to your opinions, such as they are, so there seems to be little to gain from beating a dead pony! Feel free to continue to believe that Sweden, a nation of 8 million people, has managed to develop a vast and endless array of great talents on ice. Few here will buy that argument.
I still respect many of the opinions in this thread. Certainly Bure or Alessandro do have something to add to the subject and have solid reading comprehension.

It's ironic you state my arguments are shallow, when what is patently clear is that you decide to avoid the original point and over and over again, and instead descend into personal attacks yourself (My origin, i love sweden, you love Russia etc etc etc). Ignore reason, statistics and follow in line with nationalism and hope. If it pleases you, who am i to stand in the way. All i can do is literally laugh at you (I am actually laughing as i write this text). I just hope you aren't heavily involved in the Education sector (for many reasons).

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11-02-2011, 12:50 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Lol, I was tired yesterday night.
However, I never said "there is no weakness", if you search my posts you can find I always criticized our way to deal with junior hockey and still it has many problems, even if it's getting better and we're rebounding back from the '90s crisis.
I explained you all the reasons why I didn't agree with you about the WJC and your supposed drain of hockey talent from Russia. With that being said, in the mean time we won a WJC in Canada with an epic final game, two things that your superior Sweden couldn't do. Facts do go against your theory and the pic I posted proves that.
Winning an event doesn't prove anything as fact. We are discussing deth and talent analysis. One event proves nothing, because numerous outcomes are possible in one event.

I should firstly say that i think Russia is actually my favourite international national team (although who i root for does change regularly). I am not Swedish (and i was using Sweden as an example, if you wish, i will also state US/Canada has much superior depth in my opinion). I am not nationalistic (I regularly laugh when the England national football team loses) and have no specific agenda towards or against any national ice hockey teams, outside of Canada, who i unfortunately loathe.

I never stated that there has been a drain of hockey talent. What i do believe is the depth hasn't been particularly strong (which one World Junior event doesn't disprove). I think there are exceptional talents there, but the depth in my opinion hasn't really matched the other Big 3 in the past 3-4 years. If we could discuss this instead (and the argument of a recent WJ event win is not a strong supporting argument for reasons stated in the 1st paragraph) of misunderstand my agenda.

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11-02-2011, 12:57 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Bure View Post
My opinion is at the moment Sweden has one of the best development programs if not the best. This is shown by the large number of quality prospects they produce with such a small population.

I also believe that Russia has made great strides into improving their junior system and it as shown recently.

Like I said before many talented Russians are completely unknown because the Russian system is not as closely followed by other countries such as Canada, USA, Sweden etc.

The only prospects that are recognized are the very talented ones so there is no baisis comparing both propect pools in a whole.

The only way to really compare prospect pools IMO is international tournaments.
All valid points and some decent reasoning. I also would certainly agree Russia appears to be improving in a number of areas and one hopes it continues.

For those directly involved in Russian junior hockey, are the young players who show early promise all guided into becoming Forwards? Whilst some exceptional Forwards are developed, the level of Defenseman produced is vastly inferior to the other "Big three". This becomes very apparent at the Junior level where natural tendancies and development flaws in a system are more heavily prenounced. Seems a major issue.

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11-02-2011, 03:39 PM
  #140
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I do agree that Russia not produce quality defensemen at a pace that Sweden, Canada and USA does.

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11-02-2011, 07:14 PM
  #141
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I do agree that Russia not produce quality defensemen at a pace that Sweden, Canada and USA does.
This, last couple of years only high end talent from Russia on defense are Kulikov, Orlov and Voinov. Hopefully young players like Marchenko and Nesterov will grown into star player but the depth isn good as other top nations. On forward side Russia has produce alot of good talents last years..

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11-02-2011, 07:23 PM
  #142
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I don't agree. IMO main reason why players leave Latvia is because most of our youth coaches are gash. Our players are OK until the age of,say 14-15, but then they drop of the map because of their lack of physical strenght and work ethic. Our hockey system still have the soviet mindset which undervalues physical side of the game. I fully support the players like Girgensons and Egle when they leave for North America. Spending few years in NA hockey environment will help them round out their game, making them better players and eventually help them make a living out of hockey.
How many of these talents have suceeded abroad?
Out of 91 class there are only two players that show some future (in the context of the NT) at the moment, Upītis in BOL (today first KHL game for Dinamo Rīga and first goal) and Ķēniņš in NLA... well, maybe Zabis in Liepāja too. And Ķēniņš was also, pretty much, discovered by his team's coaches when Znaroks decided to take him to the WC as we lack centers catastrophically...

I refuse to believe that coaches who coached Skrastiņš, Skudra, Irbe, Ozoliņš, Žoltoks... and before that,, gave the world of hockey Balderis... who made these players into NHL prospects on 1 rink in Riga don't know anything about coaching...

I'm not saying that NA is bad... Not at all. Just the fact that these players, knowing that they are no 1st class talents, end up in Canadian/US junior "beer'' leagues like GMHL etc. where the quality of coaches is much lower... If you have all opporrtunities at home to train with decent coaches, play in MHL etc. why should you go to the D-class NA junior league??? I don't get it...

For lack of physical strength you do exercises every day, for bad attitude... a Canadian won't change the fact that you care about partying more than hockey. You know why Girgensons is where he is... because he doesn't need extra motivation to do what he does and train as hard as he does, he is not selfish and also has a bit of talent... and that will make him, at the end, top 10-15 pick, imho...

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11-02-2011, 07:27 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Winning an event doesn't prove anything as fact. We are discussing deth and talent analysis. One event proves nothing, because numerous outcomes are possible in one event.

I should firstly say that i think Russia is actually my favourite international national team (although who i root for does change regularly). I am not Swedish (and i was using Sweden as an example, if you wish, i will also state US/Canada has much superior depth in my opinion). I am not nationalistic (I regularly laugh when the England national football team loses) and have no specific agenda towards or against any national ice hockey teams, outside of Canada, who i unfortunately loathe.

I never stated that there has been a drain of hockey talent. What i do believe is the depth hasn't been particularly strong (which one World Junior event doesn't disprove). I think there are exceptional talents there, but the depth in my opinion hasn't really matched the other Big 3 in the past 3-4 years. If we could discuss this instead (and the argument of a recent WJ event win is not a strong supporting argument for reasons stated in the 1st paragraph) of misunderstand my agenda.
I can't imagine anything more subjective and totally reliant on personal opinion and impressions than an assessment of depth. By what measure do you say that Sweden has greater depth of hockey talent than Russia? At the youth level, I would certainly concede that Canada has greater depth than Russia, based on the fact that the CHL has 60 high quality teams that play in a fiercely competitive environment. But both the United States and Sweden rely more on a national team format for their youth teams in international competition. The United States has junior leagues that are well below the caliber of the CHL, and they use some players from college and university teams, who have a far shorter season than the CHL. The US National Team Development Program drives their participation in youth tournaments.

My understanding of the Swedish system is that it relies on a few major league club teams to supply talent for youth national teams, and then the youth teams are trained intensively for competition. Every Swedish WJC team has 3 to 5 players who stand out and are excellent pro prospects - the rest are just good players who fill out the roster. The same is true of the United States, Russia, and even Canada, although sometimes Canadian teams are really loaded with talent. You keep talking about Swedish depth (as you tend to couch it in discussion of the "Big 3"), but to most of us, we just don't have a memory of Swedish youth teams with 15 fantastic talents dominating all over the ice. This appears to be just a figment of your fandom! If the Swedish teams were that good, they would win a Gold Medal every now and then!

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11-02-2011, 08:48 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
It's easier to get them? Teams are drafting from Sweden because their is a large surplus of talent there. That's the main reason. Yes, there is no political issues so drafting is made easier, but they don't draft Swedes because "He will for sure come over", they draft them because they are producing many good players.

Looking at the depth last year, players like Johan Larsson, Fasth, Cehlin, Lander, Friberg, Lindberg, Rakell, Klingberg are all prospects who have prospects of either playing in the NHL or playing for the national team one day. I look at Russia and frankly a player like Burdasov doesn't really compare that well with the above. I like Panarin and agree he certainly should talent wise should be drafted. The totals of drafted Russians is artificially low, but i still look at the bottom of the Swedish rosters and see that those players are better players than the bottom of the Russian roster. Russia was far more top heavy than Sweden.
I still can't see how they are better. Burdasov is stuck on a team full of great players, top 3 team in Europe at the moment... the same can be said about other talents who simply cannot get on KHL roster.

There's also Tochitsky on Vityaz roster... not drafted, not even at U20 last year, 20g 8pts, what about Kabanov in QMJHL (also not playing last year).

If you're giving Rakell, what about this guy http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=58562 who wasn't drafted even from QMJHL...

I'm not a big fan of Russia (excluding hockey, I am a fan in hockey though ). But when you claim that depth-wise Russia is behind top 3 then... so is the USA and Sweden, as Canada has and will have more good players. But it seems to me like they draft any Swede that they can find in the SuperElit...

I mean, what's so special about that Michael Schumacher guy that I remember from draft?? Now he was 13g 13pts in OHL but before that 22g 7pts in Superelit... and you put Prokhorkin (undrafted) from CSKA in OHL and he'll put up better numbers I bet...

What's so great about Westerholm, Blomstrand, Nermark.... just looking at last rounds of draft.... some guys with 10 on so Elitserien games and so so Superelit stats....

That just shows that SuperElit and Elitserien are better scouted than KHL/MHL... Now, KHL might be scouted good as Slepyshev is in round 1 predictions for this year but... the problem is that all the better underage kids are still in MHL... If Friberg and my mentioned Blomstrands and Westerholms were Russian they'd never even smell KHL at their age and skill level....

MHL is ignored by scouts = players ignore MHL and leave Russia.

And it's very easy to prove that MHL is ignored.... just look at where was Kucherov before U18 in draft rankings and after the tournament.... If he wasn't with U18 team, they would probably have never drafted him too.

On the one hand you can blame KHL clubs for not giving young players a chance. On the other hand, MHL is a damn good junior league and KHL has money so it's first prerogative won't always be to put a youngster on on of top 3 lines like in Elitserien etc. and if scouts want to see young players in action, MHL is a good place where to do it...

I can also point you to Nikita Kucherov, Nikita Gusev... they're not playing in the KHL because they lack talent but because Shupler had already bought 4 lines of players for CSKA before the season started (and because of moronic "youngster line'' idea that harms Russian hockey... I can't imagine how putting a line consisting of MHL players in KHL can make them play good in that level- imagine Oilers creating a line of Nugent Hopkins with his major junior team linemates, or Oilers 2nd and 3rd round picks in NHL). They are putting 2 points per game in the MHL and stuck in that level because somebody thought that a guy who didn't work with youth in Riga for three years will work with youth in CSKA... All due respect to good years with coach Shupler and I dunno whom he has raised before but he's never let youngsters play while he was in Latvia and never going to let in CSKA.... should've rented both and Marchenko to Avtomobilist and we'd have another competitive team.


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11-02-2011, 09:17 PM
  #145
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The last post brings me to other bothering issue of Russian hockey... the "youngster'' lines. I don't know how many clubs practice this kind of sh** but under Shupler, at least, Dinamo Rīga and CSKA has done that....

It basically consists of putting 3 very young forwards together, to play in the 4th line for 7-8 minutes ice time, so that you could call it ''giving young players chance to prove themselves"...

The problem is - how can you prove yourself in 8 minutes, playing in the 2nd league in the world, on a MHL level line... as I already mention, it would be the equivalent of putting Nugent-Hopkins on the same line with Oilers later rounds' draft picks and giving them a chance in the NHL.

In the NHL that kind of sh** can't happen because you need to earn money... giving an obviously talented player limited ice time and bad partners won't help to sell your jerseys and merchandise.... in Elitserien and other European leagues you have to give a talent place on good lines because you need a cost effective way how to stay competitive... that way you don't need to spend money on buying another player for your, say, LW in the 3rd line... and you can show a potencial star for possible buyers in NHL or KHL... that would pay you good compensations.

In KHL none of that exists- you don't need to sell anything, you have enough money to buy at least somebody and, well, nobody in Europe can afford to pay more for your players and nobody in NHL has to pay compensations for them..... The only obstacle are fans who want local talents... but that's easy to overcome, just make a "youngster'' line, after a few games they'll eventually make mistakes, fans will start to complain and you can sack the trio and buy Yashin... and fans will be happy that you're barely holding on to the play-off spot...

What do you think of that??


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11-02-2011, 09:43 PM
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I think you are forgetting how 90% of Russian stars started in professional hockey. That is - 7 to 8 minutes of ice time, AT FIRST. Kucherov and Gusev still get plenty of puck time and game time in MHL. At the same time they're practicing with the pro team and getting a feel for the game in the 7-8 minutes.

They are not expected to score hat tricks. They are expected to continously progress under the coaches guidance (game tasks, assignments). They improve skills and mastery in practice and MHL games..

Think Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Ovechkin - they all started like that. The idea is that those who work hard will force their way into the squad and within 1-2 years will become with what we're seeing in Kuznetsov this year, for example.

It works- it's not for the masses, but it develops elite talent. Some of these players then go to WJC and look more Mature than other players because they're game is much more mature than CHL players for example.

two sides to every coin...

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11-03-2011, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
I still respect many of the opinions in this thread. Certainly Bure or Alessandro do have something to add to the subject and have solid reading comprehension.

It's ironic you state my arguments are shallow, when what is patently clear is that you decide to avoid the original point and over and over again, and instead descend into personal attacks yourself (My origin, i love sweden, you love Russia etc etc etc). Ignore reason, statistics and follow in line with nationalism and hope. If it pleases you, who am i to stand in the way. All i can do is literally laugh at you (I am actually laughing as i write this text). I just hope you aren't heavily involved in the Education sector (for many reasons).
look whos talking

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11-03-2011, 03:22 AM
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MHL is ignored
I dont know how about scouts. About players, yes, a few top prospects prefers CHL (wants to show he really desire to play NHL, nothing else). On other hand you can see Shalunov, Nesterov, Timirev, Malenkich, Osnovin and many top russians here. Number of top russian prospects in MHL has increased every year. Unfortunatelly MHL teams dont attract top non-russians like CHL does.

Supler and CSKA
I dont agree with you. He has given chance to young guys in CSKA. Look at TOI of Marchenko Is cca 12:00 TOI low in your eyes? Next Barbashev, is cca 12-13 minutes low? Last game he played 2nd line with Zubov and Kugryshev. D Sergeyes and cca 14-15 minutes. Ok, Gusev and Kucherov has TOI below 10 minutes. You have to consider that CSKA has young squad and not everyone can play 15 minutes. Why did Gusev, Prokhorkin and Kucherov play at same line? They played in MHL at the same line, why should we destroy this chemistry in KHL? Do these kids play PP in KHL this season? I watched CSKA at summer tourney in Kosice. Gusev, Prokhorkin and Kucherov played a huge TOI, power plays. They destroyed slovak champion ok, it is not KHL ..

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11-03-2011, 03:23 AM
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I still respect many of the opinions in this thread.
and your opinion are based on NHL draft lottery

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11-03-2011, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
I still can't see how they are better. Burdasov is stuck on a team full of great players, top 3 team in Europe at the moment... the same can be said about other talents who simply cannot get on KHL roster.

There's also Tochitsky on Vityaz roster... not drafted, not even at U20 last year, 20g 8pts, what about Kabanov in QMJHL (also not playing last year).
I don't particularly think Burdasov is anything out of the ordinary. I wasn't impressed by him at the World Juniors. Sure, he has nice hands and a big body, but thats about it for me.

Kabanov whilst obviously incredibly gifted, will not develop into a world class player IMO. Obviously attitude concerns still exist and his production in the Q isn't really anything too impressive. I will be intrigued to see where his future lies, but i think he is one of the more glorified prospects of the past few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
If you're giving Rakell, what about this guy http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=58562 who wasn't drafted even from QMJHL...
Rakell and Zlobin are very different players. I was suprised Zlobin wasn't drafted last year, but considering he played in the CHL, i don't think the Russian factor is the main reason he didn't get drafted. I've heard he has been a healthy scratch this year (even though he is scoring at a very impressive rate) and that consistency and work ethic are two things holding him back along with the physical aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
I'm not a big fan of Russia (excluding hockey, I am a fan in hockey though ). But when you claim that depth-wise Russia is behind top 3 then... so is the USA and Sweden, as Canada has and will have more good players. But it seems to me like they draft any Swede that they can find in the SuperElit...
Obviously Canada is #1 with US being #2 for depth. Sweden is #3 IMO right now. The reason they keep drafting from the SuperElit is because it keeps producing very good players. No other reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
I mean, what's so special about that Michael Schumacher guy that I remember from draft?? Now he was 13g 13pts in OHL but before that 22g 7pts in Superelit... and you put Prokhorkin (undrafted) from CSKA in OHL and he'll put up better numbers I bet...
Not sure i understand the point of this comparison. Schumacher has already been drafted, whilst Prokhorkin has yet to be draft eligible. If and when Prokhorkin gets drafted (and i agree, he is a superior prospect to Schumacher) then we can compare. It's also an odd comparison because Prokhorkin is one of the best players of his age class, whilst Schumacher is a little further down the depth chart for his age group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
What's so great about Westerholm, Blomstrand, Nermark.... just looking at last rounds of draft.... some guys with 10 on so Elitserien games and so so Superelit stats....
Nemark has long been considered a very good talent, and fell in his draft year. Going into the year he was considered one of the best forwards of his age group. I can't comment on Blomstrand. Westerholm is an overage draftee who has produced very well in SEL-2 and has shown very nice Offensive abilities. Certainly a long-term project, but at the very worst he'll be a high class European league player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
That just shows that SuperElit and Elitserien are better scouted than KHL/MHL... Now, KHL might be scouted good as Slepyshev is in round 1 predictions for this year but... the problem is that all the better underage kids are still in MHL... If Friberg and my mentioned Blomstrands and Westerholms were Russian they'd never even smell KHL at their age and skill level....

MHL is ignored by scouts = players ignore MHL and leave Russia.
Slepyshev is not predicted as a 1st round pick at the moment. He's a possible candidate, but he certainly isn't viewed as a concensus 1st round pick at this time. I imagine the KHL is very well scouted, and that certain teams will scout the MHL very well, whilst others (who have specific strategies to avoid Russians in the draft) will not scout it very much. The MHL will be underscouted by some, and known by others i suspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
And it's very easy to prove that MHL is ignored.... just look at where was Kucherov before U18 in draft rankings and after the tournament.... If he wasn't with U18 team, they would probably have never drafted him too.

Kucherov was known long before the U-18. The U-18 helped his draft stock (because he was exceptional) but he would have been drafted without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
On the one hand you can blame KHL clubs for not giving young players a chance. On the other hand, MHL is a damn good junior league and KHL has money so it's first prerogative won't always be to put a youngster on on of top 3 lines like in Elitserien etc. and if scouts want to see young players in action, MHL is a good place where to do it...
I think the MHL is a wonderful step. It helps create a visible structure and line of development within the system and can only help and develop more young players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
I can also point you to Nikita Kucherov, Nikita Gusev... they're not playing in the KHL because they lack talent but because Shupler had already bought 4 lines of players for CSKA before the season started (and because of moronic "youngster line'' idea that harms Russian hockey... I can't imagine how putting a line consisting of MHL players in KHL can make them play good in that level- imagine Oilers creating a line of Nugent Hopkins with his major junior team linemates, or Oilers 2nd and 3rd round picks in NHL). They are putting 2 points per game in the MHL and stuck in that level because somebody thought that a guy who didn't work with youth in Riga for three years will work with youth in CSKA... All due respect to good years with coach Shupler and I dunno whom he has raised before but he's never let youngsters play while he was in Latvia and never going to let in CSKA.... should've rented both and Marchenko to Avtomobilist and we'd have another competitive team.
Interesting. I've heard they would be served better by playing in the VHL, but CSKA has no direct affliate to the league. Im looking forward to seeing Gusev play alot. In football young players are often loaned out and it helps many players develop. Clearly Gusev and Kucherov need a new challenge.

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