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Is it too early to say we need a new coach?

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Old
11-03-2011, 11:36 AM
  #26
AlexanderMogilny89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omglolnub View Post
even with the new faces, the defense first, goals by committee philosophy/strategy of the team (Ruff) and the player selection of mainly undersized forwards (Regier) hasn't changed in well over a decade. Yeah, it got the one finals appearance, but that's cause a legendary goalie basically dragged them there (and still lost, and Miller is a level or two below that guy), but since then, mostly first round bounces.

the organization has had its change of scenery and new way of thinking in the front office with Pegula coming to town. The team plays well enough in the regular season with their strategy, but are never built for the grind of the playoffs. I guess that was alright under the old, cost cutting owner, but I thought the team's moved on from that line of thinking. It's time for the team makeup and coaching strategy to do the same, especially when it hasn't been working that well.

note: the play of Vanek and Pommers so far this year is an abherration from the usual everyone scores 15 goals approach. I'm mainly talking about the last 15 years, in general.
I agree with this totally. >>>>> the player selection of mainly undersized forwards (Regier) hasn't changed in well over a decade.

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11-03-2011, 12:23 PM
  #27
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omglolnub View Post
even with the new faces, the defense first, goals by committee philosophy/strategy of the team (Ruff)
What?

They haven't had a goals by committee approach since the Hasek years and also haven't played a defense first approach since then either.

Quote:
and the player selection of mainly undersized forwards (Regier) hasn't changed in well over a decade.
Thats simple not true


Guys that are still here
Vanek ----> 6'2" 205lbs
Stafford --> 6'2" 214bs
Adam -----> 6'2" 205lbs
Goose ----> 6'5" 212lbs
Kaleta ----> 6' 200lbslbs

In the system
Kassian ---> 6'3" 214lbs
Foligno ---> 6'2" 215lbs
Armia ----> 6'3" 195lbs
Sundher --> 6' 192lbs


No longer here
Paille ----> 6'1" 200lbs
Thorburn --> 6'3" 220lbs
Novotny ---> 6'3" 210lbs
Kotalik -----> 6'3" 215lbs
Mancari ----> 6'3" 225lbs
Peters -----> 6'4" 240lbs



We have drafted 5 "undersized" forwards of which 3 are still here. Two of whom are actually pretty solid/well built for their height (Roy and Gerbe).

Roy ------> 5'8" 188lbs
Ennis ----> 5'9" 163lbs
Gerbe ----> 5'5" 176lbs
Kennedy --> 5'10" 175lbs
Byron -----> 5'9" 170bs (was 135lbs when drafted)


You can argue how good the Sabres are at drafting. But its false assertion that they draft mainly undersized forwards.

Quote:
Yeah, it got the one finals appearance, but that's cause a legendary goalie basically dragged them there (and still lost, and Miller is a level or two below that guy), but since then, mostly first round bounces.
and two Conference Finals after the lockout. In the summers of 2006 and 2007 the guts of the team was ripped out. Something like that isn't rebuilt overnight.

Quote:
the organization has had its change of scenery and new way of thinking in the front office with Pegula coming to town. The team plays well enough in the regular season with their strategy, but are never built for the grind of the playoffs. I guess that was alright under the old, cost cutting owner, but I thought the team's moved on from that line of thinking. It's time for the team makeup and coaching strategy to do the same, especially when it hasn't been working that well.
an entire season is a proper evaluation time for how well they've done with new tools at their disposal.
Quote:
note: the play of Vanek and Pommers so far this year is an abherration from the usual everyone scores 15 goals approach. I'm mainly talking about the last 15 years, in general
What in the world are you talking about? They have not had a everyone scores 15g appraoch since the Hasek years.

Vanek is a 30-40g scorer
Pommer and Roy are 25+ goal scorers
Stafford is a 20+ goal scorer that was on a 4og pace last year.

Before that Briere and Drury scoring 30+ goals


We have several players that can score 25+ goals and some that can score 30+. I have no idea why you keep asserting that are "usualy is evryone scores 15g). We also haven't played a trapping defensive style in quite some time.

You can want a new coach but at least get the facts straight when attacking Regier/Ruff.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-03-2011 at 12:30 PM.
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Old
11-03-2011, 12:39 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barcs View Post
I wouldn't say it's too soon. 2nd longest tenured coach in American major pro sports and he's delivered a whopping 1 finals appearance.
Though I am a Lindy fan, that is just amazing considering the company he is/was in:

MLB - Tony LaRussa (until recently) - Cardinals 1996-2011 - 2 Championships
NBA - Greg Popovish - Spurs 1996 - present - 4 Championships
NFL - Andy Reid - Eagles - 1999 - present - 0 Championships (1 SB appearance)

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Old
11-03-2011, 12:42 PM
  #29
AlexanderMogilny89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
What?

They haven't had a goals by committee approach since the Hasek years and also haven't played a defense first approach since then either.



Thats simple not true


Guys that are still here
Vanek ----> 6'2" 205lbs
Stafford --> 6'2" 214bs
Adam -----> 6'2" 205lbs
Goose ----> 6'5" 212lbs
Kaleta ----> 6' 200lbslbs

In the system
Kassian ---> 6'3" 214lbs
Foligno ---> 6'2" 215lbs
Armia ----> 6'3" 195lbs
Sundher --> 6' 192lbs


No longer here
Paille ----> 6'1" 200lbs
Thorburn --> 6'3" 220lbs
Novotny ---> 6'3" 210lbs
Kotalik -----> 6'3" 215lbs
Mancari ----> 6'3" 225lbs
Peters -----> 6'4" 240lbs



We have drafted 5 "undersized" forwards of which 3 are still here. Two of whom are actually pretty solid/well built for their height (Roy and Gerbe).

Roy ------> 5'8" 188lbs
Ennis ----> 5'9" 163lbs
Gerbe ----> 5'5" 176lbs
Kennedy --> 5'10" 175lbs
Byron -----> 5'9" 170bs (was 135lbs when drafted)


You can argue how good the Sabres are at drafting. But its false assertion that they draft mainly undersized forwards.



and two Conference Finals after the lockout. In the summers of 2006 and 2007 the guts of the team was ripped out. Something like that isn't rebuilt overnight.



an entire season is a proper evaluation time for how well they've done with new tools at their disposal.


What in the world are you talking about? They have not had a everyone scores 15g appraoch since the Hasek years.

Vanek is a 30-40g scorer
Pommer and Roy are 25+ goal scorers
Stafford is a 20+ goal scorer that was on a 4og pace last year.

Before that Briere and Drury scoring 30+ goals


We have several players that can score 25+ goals and some that can score 30+. I have no idea why you keep asserting that are "usualy is evryone scores 15g). We also haven't played a trapping defensive style in quite some time.

You can want a new coach but at least get the facts straight when attacking Regier/Ruff.

Let me know when them several players score them goals.

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Old
11-03-2011, 12:47 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barcs View Post
I wouldn't say it's too soon. 2nd longest tenured coach in American major pro sports and he's delivered a whopping 1 finals appearance.
I'd have to agree. I do think it's too early in the season to be making coaching changes, but yeah. Lindy's had some time.

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11-03-2011, 12:48 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderMogilny89 View Post
Let me know when them several players score them goals.
OT, but you need to stop deleting any of the closing "[/QUOTE]" tag when you quote people. It messes the formatting up.

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11-03-2011, 12:51 PM
  #32
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It is NEVER too early to have this topic. Frankly, I'm surprised we made it about 10 games into the season before someone suggested firing Lindy.

Ruff is a great coach. He hasn't "lost" the team. Firing him won't accomplish anything. Don't forget how much the roster has turned over over the off season. The way I see it it is largely the fact that the new faces are not 100% comfortable in their new positions yet. They will get it together, but it will take some time. There's no need to make any knee jerk reactions. Especially when any cup dreams this year were realistically just that dreams.


Last edited by barnell: 11-03-2011 at 12:57 PM.
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11-03-2011, 01:48 PM
  #33
Ted Black
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I love Lindy and the day he leaves I will be saddened, no question.

With that said, I hate the way he changes lines every shift. He's always done this and I just don't get it.

I am extremely curious to know how this team would perform with a new coach.

That is all.

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11-03-2011, 01:55 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Black View Post
I love Lindy and the day he leaves I will be saddened, no question.

With that said, I hate the way he changes lines every shift. He's always done this and I just don't get it.

I am extremely curious to know how this team would perform with a new coach.

That is all.
That is simply not true. Particularly the underlined. He usually keeps successful lines or combos together. Thats why it took Roy getting hurt to get the best combo we've had up front together in awhile (Vanek/Pommer). Because Ruff always like Hecht/Pommer together.

This year has been a tough one with the forwards. He's trying to put together more than two combos that work.

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11-03-2011, 01:59 PM
  #35
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Lindy is a great coach in a vacuum. That doesn't mean he's necessarily the right one for this job.

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11-03-2011, 02:08 PM
  #36
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It's been 14 years without a Cup, so I don't think it's "too early" to judge anybody in the bringing the Cup to Buffalo department.

Having said that, he has struggled to push the right buttons THIS season. Which to the best of my knowledge is an abnormality. It's not his fault that Leino looks lost out there, not entirely. The Sabres are in the midst of an identity crisis, but Vanek, Pomminville, Regehr, and Enroth have really shown the way. More guys just need to follow.

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11-03-2011, 02:10 PM
  #37
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Ruff is NOT a great coach.32 playoff victories in the last TEN seasons is anything but mediocre.But wrong venue to bring this up, the fans here and in Buffalo think Lindy can do no wrong.Pegula practically anointed him coach for life

I mean how many more first round choke jobs is he going to lead us to?What has he done that is so deserving of 15 years of no cups?!He couldn't win a cup with best goalie in NHL history or the most talented team from 05-07.

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11-03-2011, 02:27 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Ruff is NOT a great coach.32 playoff victories in the last TEN seasons is anything but mediocre.But wrong venue to bring this up, the fans here and in Buffalo think Lindy can do no wrong.Pegula practically anointed him coach for life

I mean how many more first round choke jobs is he going to lead us to?What has he done that is so deserving of 15 years of no cups?!He couldn't win a cup with best goalie in NHL history or the most talented team from 05-07.
He also said that the Sabres reason for existence is to win the Cup. So I think he would do whatever he feels is necessary.

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11-03-2011, 02:28 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Ruff is NOT a great coach.32 playoff victories in the last TEN seasons is anything but mediocre.
And 3 of those seasons were bottom barrel teams run by a bankrupt Adelphia, and the NHL. That slightly important fact never seems to be mentioned.

Ruff is 14th all-tme in playoff wins.

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11-03-2011, 03:35 PM
  #40
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Ponder this........

The sabes couldnt win with the great french connection. The 75' team having one of the highest scoring teams in hockey, although they came close and put Buffalo on the map of the hockey world, along with Punch.

The great Scotty Bowman, who won everywhere else but here.

And like Freddie said, we couldnt win with the best goalie in the solar system.

So maybe its not the coach or the players fault.

Theres something much deeper going on here.

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Old
11-03-2011, 03:35 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Ruff is NOT a great coach.32 playoff victories in the last TEN seasons is anything but mediocre.But wrong venue to bring this up, the fans here and in Buffalo think Lindy can do no wrong.Pegula practically anointed him coach for life

I mean how many more first round choke jobs is he going to lead us to?What has he done that is so deserving of 15 years of no cups?!He couldn't win a cup with best goalie in NHL history or the most talented team from 05-07.
His Jack Adams says differently. Lindy isn't the problem, not at all.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-04-2011 at 12:58 PM.
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11-03-2011, 03:50 PM
  #42
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Yes. The day Ruff gets fired is "Ruff Hired By ____ Eve".

Stop. Ruff can't move Leino's feet for him when he has the puck. Ruff isn't going to keep pucks out of the net that should be stopped. Ruff isn't going to help other forwards create scoring opportunities aside from those generated by the top line.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera

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11-03-2011, 03:53 PM
  #43
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Too early. Unless you have the greatest player of your generation on your team, firing a coach mid-season doesn't bode well. I don't want to hear the Pittsburgh example.

Give him the season.

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Old
11-03-2011, 04:36 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogoaltrop View Post
Ponder this........

The sabes couldnt win with the great french connection. The 75' team having one of the highest scoring teams in hockey, although they came close and put Buffalo on the map of the hockey world, along with Punch.

The great Scotty Bowman, who won everywhere else but here.

And like Freddie said, we couldnt win with the best goalie in the solar system.

So maybe its not the coach or the players fault.

Theres something much deeper going on here.
Yes. A realization that winning the cup is ridiculously difficult and requires luck as well as skill, grit, and good coaching to win.

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11-03-2011, 04:40 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Clock View Post
Yes. A realization that winning the cup is ridiculously difficult and requires luck as well as skill, grit, and good coaching to win.
I think you've got the best post in the thread Clock. Even with the best coach in hockey (which I'm not saying Ruff is, just running a hypothetical) and a great team, it's never a sure thing.


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11-03-2011, 05:25 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by barcs View Post
I wouldn't say it's too soon. 2nd longest tenured coach in American major pro sports and he's delivered a whopping 1 finals appearance.
Holy results oriented batman

There are 15 teams in the EC, your EV is 1 out of 15 years to appear in the SCF. He's at that win rate. Lindy also has 4 ECF appearances well above EV. He also has a Jack Adams award. Since the lockout only Detroit SJ and NJ have better records.

But ya, he's pretty much the worst ever.

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Old
11-03-2011, 05:40 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
Ruff is NOT a great coach.32 playoff victories in the last TEN seasons is anything but mediocre.But wrong venue to bring this up, the fans here and in Buffalo think Lindy can do no wrong.Pegula practically anointed him coach for life

I mean how many more first round choke jobs is he going to lead us to?What has he done that is so deserving of 15 years of no cups?!He couldn't win a cup with best goalie in NHL history or the most talented team from 05-07.
Wow this is just insane. First off great job picking almost the most favorable time span possible. Even over that time frame he's 32-28 so that's a winning record.

But over his entire coaching career with the Sabres in the post season he has a very respectable 57-44 record for 56%.

Out of 8 trips to the post season only 3 have ended in the first round. Now this might seem very noticeable to you since the last two seasons ended quickly.

Everyone's favorite Ted Nolan made the playoffs twice in 4 years, winning 1 series and going 6-11.

If the Sabres miss the playoffs this year then yes you can have the discussion without looking completely out of your element.

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Old
11-03-2011, 05:56 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Identify one SPECIFIC coaching strategy or decision that you feel Ruff is doing wrong. Don't give me 'not getting them ready to play', because that's 100% on the players.

Go ahead. I'll wait.
is that a fact? because buried somewhere in the interviews on sabres.com you will find a clip of lindy himself saying the exact opposite of that.


Last edited by joshjull: 11-04-2011 at 01:04 PM.
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Old
11-03-2011, 05:58 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Gnuguy View Post

If the Sabres miss the playoffs this year then yes you can have the discussion without looking completely out of your element.
LOL you cant say it now because youre wrong, but once its proven youre right, you can say it, because youll be right then.

siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

not saying theyll miss the playoffs, just funny how you said it. i think its been a valid discussion since he became coach. idk why people are so offended by this discussion. 29 other teams have managed to have this discussion, and actually act on it MANY times since ruff became coach.. in some cases, having it work out GREAT (penguins).. yet, around here, you get sent to time out for even bringing it up

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11-03-2011, 07:36 PM
  #50
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3 years ago wasn't soon enough.

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