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Will a Vikings Relocation Affect the Wild?

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Old
11-03-2011, 11:54 AM
  #26
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The thing is, you allow two places that already offer gambling slot machines and bam, there's your money. No taxpayers lose a dime. Build a Block E venue and there's significantly more money to put into the state as well. But again, the tribes have the money and therefore the backing to make sure that never happens. So they'll have to try to make something work with E-Pull Tabs ( ) and some sort of tax.

I just can't see it.

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11-03-2011, 11:54 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Patp14 View Post
I just did a review of literature on research that has been done regarding the economic impact of sports facilities. I am hoping to submit a grant proposal on a topic that will focus on the problem here in Minnesota.

It is quite interesting to know that just about every academic research done on this subject finds the construction of new facilities never actually promote economic development. Basically the benefits never justify the costs. Especially with the large amount of public financing that is involved.

I attached my Review of Lit if anyone wants to check her out. Squidz might like it at least.
That was an interesting read and quick overview of it, but to draw conclusions of that nature from only 3 sources(2 of which you discounted in the end as not being very helpful) might be flawed. The substitution effect makes sense, but I don't think you can say a very complex economy like the state of Minnesota just has the substitution effect. I'm sure there are plenty of people who gain more utility from going to the Vikings game rather than going to a comedy club. Also, they might spend more money simply because they are near the game, maybe it's a tradition to go get a bite to eat after the game, or helping the local bars/restaurants, which is undoubtedly does.

I think people will always find something to do, but on a Sunday, maybe that person becomes a fan of a different team and instead of going out and putting $100 into the local economy, we might see that decrease because they only spend $50 at the grocery store for a whole's week worth of food. The value of a stadium economically is hard to measure since we would have to measure the economies before and after a team came, and most of the time, it's hard to find a lot of things constant in an economic setting to compare the economic impact across different cities. If we're talking from an economics perspective also, we have to consider each person has a different utility function. How many people would prefer going to the Vikings game over going wherever else they could go for that dollar? That's why I don't think the substitution effect works in this case because I don't think the Vikings game and going to an alternative solution (maybe a comedy show, can't think of much else right now) on the same indifference curve because they will get less utility. I think it makes the people worse off.

I'd love to see more research on this topic done strictly from economic perspective.

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11-03-2011, 11:55 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Any chance of a .doc instead of .docx? My comp at work doesn't have the compatibility pack to open it.
I changed the saving settings to the doc version but for some reason every time I upload it I says docx .... me confused.

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11-03-2011, 11:57 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Engebretson View Post
I hear that all the time, and while I agree with you to a certain extent, I feel there are many people just use that as a lazy excuse. When they sit down and actualy watch the game, it's a not that much of a problem.
For the older generation, eyesight tends to go and it's harder to follow where the play is going, I'm only 21 (too much beer maybe?) and I sometimes don't even see where the puck goes, so I can understand this argument a little bit.

Also, the casual folk would much rather see HUGE numbers in a game rather than 3-1 games. What? There's only 4 points scored!?!?!?!? I can go watch some college football teams put up 63 and 60 points instead.

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11-03-2011, 12:05 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by mnwildgophers View Post
That was an interesting read and quick overview of it, but to draw conclusions of that nature from only 3 sources(2 of which you discounted in the end as not being very helpful) might be flawed. The substitution effect makes sense, but I don't think you can say a very complex economy like the state of Minnesota just has the substitution effect. I'm sure there are plenty of people who gain more utility from going to the Vikings game rather than going to a comedy club. Also, they might spend more money simply because they are near the game, maybe it's a tradition to go get a bite to eat after the game, or helping the local bars/restaurants, which is undoubtedly does.

I think people will always find something to do, but on a Sunday, maybe that person becomes a fan of a different team and instead of going out and putting $100 into the local economy, we might see that decrease because they only spend $50 at the grocery store for a whole's week worth of food. The value of a stadium economically is hard to measure since we would have to measure the economies before and after a team came, and most of the time, it's hard to find a lot of things constant in an economic setting to compare the economic impact across different cities. If we're talking from an economics perspective also, we have to consider each person has a different utility function. How many people would prefer going to the Vikings game over going wherever else they could go for that dollar? That's why I don't think the substitution effect works in this case because I don't think the Vikings game and going to an alternative solution (maybe a comedy show, can't think of much else right now) on the same indifference curve because they will get less utility. I think it makes the people worse off.

I'd love to see more research on this topic done strictly from economic perspective.
Yes I know it isn't the most thorough analysis of literature on the subject. My class required a minimum of 3 sources and it needed to be 5-10 pages, therefore my paper has 3 sources and 10 pages and I wrote in about 5 hours after watching the Wild on Tuesday night because it was due Wednesday... I'm a slacker to the fullest degree.

It is a review of some literature on the subject not a true analysis of the problem. The point of this paper is to gain greater knowledge of what other people have done on the subject so as to improve my research in the future that is why I critique the sources at the end. I am just pointing out the most common themes in my sources and analyzing these themes. There could be many more factors into the sports facility problem, these are just a few major ones I noticed the sources reference a lot.

There are tons of sources on the subject. One place I would look would be the sources from the Zimbalist article i cited. He has tons of sources that look like they would help a lot in researching the topic way more in depth.

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11-03-2011, 12:11 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Patp14 View Post
Yes I know it isn't the most thorough analysis of literature on the subject. My class required a minimum of 3 sources and it needed to be 5-10 pages, therefore my paper has 3 sources and 10 pages and I wrote in about 5 hours after watching the Wild on Tuesday night because it was due Wednesday... I'm a slacker to the fullest degree.

It is a review of some literature on the subject not a true analysis of the problem. The point of this paper is to gain greater knowledge of what other people have done on the subject so as to improve my research in the future that is why I critique the sources at the end. I am just pointing out the most common themes in my sources and analyzing these themes. There could be many more factors into the sports facility problem, these are just a few major ones I noticed the sources reference a lot.

There are tons of sources on the subject. One place I would look would be the sources from the Zimbalist article i cited. He has tons of sources that look like they would help a lot in researching the topic way more in depth.
Ah, I got ya. Still interesting nonetheless. I figured that's why there were 3 sources and had a 10 page thing, but figured I'd answer to combat some points anyway. I'll have to check that article a bit then.

And procrastination is probably the coolest thing to do in the world. It's really something I should get better about, but oh well.

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11-03-2011, 12:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Patp14 View Post
Yes I know it isn't the most thorough analysis of literature on the subject. My class required a minimum of 3 sources and it needed to be 5-10 pages, therefore my paper has 3 sources and 10 pages and I wrote in about 5 hours after watching the Wild on Tuesday night because it was due Wednesday... I'm a slacker to the fullest degree.

It is a review of some literature on the subject not a true analysis of the problem. The point of this paper is to gain greater knowledge of what other people have done on the subject so as to improve my research in the future that is why I critique the sources at the end. I am just pointing out the most common themes in my sources and analyzing these themes. There could be many more factors into the sports facility problem, these are just a few major ones I noticed the sources reference a lot.

There are tons of sources on the subject. One place I would look would be the sources from the Zimbalist article i cited. He has tons of sources that look like they would help a lot in researching the topic way more in depth.
Which class is it for? Who's the prof?

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11-03-2011, 12:37 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by mnwildgophers View Post
Ah, I got ya. Still interesting nonetheless. I figured that's why there were 3 sources and had a 10 page thing, but figured I'd answer to combat some points anyway. I'll have to check that article a bit then.

And procrastination is probably the coolest thing to do in the world. It's really something I should get better about, but oh well.
I'd love to procrastinate at work this afternoon, but I doubt I'll get around to it.

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11-03-2011, 12:37 PM
  #34
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Well I don't think that the government necessarily has to be bullied by or cater to the reservations. It's a huge source of tax revenue stadium or not.

On a slightly related note, I wonder if Block E will ever amount to anything. Same with the Metrodome location if they don't end up doing something with it. Theoretically good places but man not a lot happening.

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11-03-2011, 12:51 PM
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If I recall correctly, of the four major pro sports, hockey has the fewest rules. Football has by far the most rules, and is easily the most complicated of the pro sports.
Trying to convince people that hockey is simpler than they think is like trying to convince someone to learn a new language. It's like saying "Spanish is much easier to learn than English! English is the toughest to learn" but they already know & understand english so it's a moot point to them. haha

As for the topic at hand, Hockey is my #1 sport but I would be sad to watch the vikings leave.. It just doesnt seem right.. But I would have to agree that hockey (the Wild) would start getting much more attention, Especially if the influx of these young rookies really does make us a Stanley Cup contender in a few years..

I just cant imagine alot of people not jumping on the Wild bandwagon if Wild success starts coming on the heals of a Vikings departure. After 50+ years with no super bowl wins I would think that if the Wild really started showing promise of bringing a cup home many people would start to get on board & embrace this whole "state of hockey" thing we're going for..

just my opinion of coarse = )

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11-03-2011, 01:08 PM
  #36
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Condolences.

I'd have to agree that for the most part these stadium deals are a kind of corporate welfare, but the reality is that the horse is out of the barn now and you HAVE to do it to keep a team. It's just a matter of whether or not taxpayers are willing to spend $500m or whatever to have a new NFL stadium now, or are they going to want to spend $1b+ to try and get a new NFL team in 10 years.
Honestly, if you ask me, I wouldn't want to do either. But I'm one of the few people who just don't care about football.

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11-03-2011, 01:10 PM
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Trying to convince people that hockey is simpler than they think is like trying to convince someone to learn a new language. It's like saying "Spanish is much easier to learn than English! English is the toughest to learn" but they already know & understand english so it's a moot point to them. haha

As for the topic at hand, Hockey is my #1 sport but I would be sad to watch the vikings leave.. It just doesnt seem right.. But I would have to agree that hockey (the Wild) would start getting much more attention, Especially if the influx of these young rookies really does make us a Stanley Cup contender in a few years..

I just cant imagine alot of people not jumping on the Wild bandwagon if Wild success starts coming on the heals of a Vikings departure. After 50+ years with no super bowl wins I would think that if the Wild really started showing promise of bringing a cup home many people would start to get on board & embrace this whole "state of hockey" thing we're going for..

just my opinion of coarse = )
And also, I completely agree with all of this.

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11-03-2011, 01:12 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by mnwildgophers View Post
For the older generation, eyesight tends to go and it's harder to follow where the play is going, I'm only 21 (too much beer maybe?) and I sometimes don't even see where the puck goes, so I can understand this argument a little bit.

Also, the casual folk would much rather see HUGE numbers in a game rather than 3-1 games. What? There's only 4 points scored!?!?!?!? I can go watch some college football teams put up 63 and 60 points instead.
The eyesight thing is the part that I agree with you on, but for as many times as I have heard that excuse, it has never come from someone with bad eyesight.

As far as casual folk, you're exactly right, they want to see scoring all the time. This is why a lot of people I know like basketball over hockey, because there is scoring every 5 seconds.

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11-03-2011, 01:14 PM
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That's a very valid opinion IMO. How I felt about the Twins stadium.

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11-03-2011, 01:37 PM
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Ya, ya Hamline smarty pants. I'm a U of North Dakota alum. Only real education we get is alcohol consumption.
You said it.

And as for the Vikings moving, I have to think a lot of the corporate money goes to Gophers football. That's not saying the Wild won't get some benefit but the NFL runs this country and people look down to college football after.

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11-03-2011, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Engebretson View Post
I grew up in Mankato and I have so many members of my family down there who hardly even acknowledge the Wild as a Minnesota sports team because hockey just doesn't mean as much down there.

It's hard to get people to like hockey when niether East or West have had a good high school hockey team in yeeeaaaars
/Owatonna

As a Colts fan, I don't really care if the Vikings leave the state. It'll suck because it's always been here as a franchise, and I grew up watching them a lot, simply because they were always on TV. Viking fans are NOT going to go to the Pack or the Bears, IMO. If anything, the Lions'll get a bunch of new fans, and then the U will get more attention.

I can see the Wild getting some more support from fans of both the NFL and NHL who chose the NFL over the NHL in the past and no longer hvae that option, but not anything significant in casual/new fans until the Wild make the playoffs next season(guaranteed, amirite?)

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11-03-2011, 02:03 PM
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It's hard to get people to like hockey when niether East or West have had a good high school hockey team in yeeeaaaars
/Owatonna
Being originally from an area with good high school hockey teams and plenty of reason to look to the NHL (Cloquet) it was strange when I learned there were people in the state who actually cared about the Vikings more than than [insert form of hockey here]. I guess having a good program can make a huge difference towards awareness. That said, there's probably as many Devils and Stars fans in Cloquet as there are Wild fans (because of Jamie, not the North Stars).

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11-03-2011, 03:04 PM
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Which class is it for? Who's the prof?
It is for an advanced writing course. any social science type major has to take. i go to umd, her name is avessa rockwell, but ive had just about every econ teacher here if thats what u were thinkin.

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11-03-2011, 03:36 PM
  #44
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It is for an advanced writing course. any social science type major has to take. i go to umd, her name is avessa rockwell, but ive had just about every econ teacher here if thats what u were thinkin.
I ended up not needing to take any of that at UMD. Had freshman comp in high school (Cloquet has college-in-the-schools courses for UMD, so it was the actual course, but taught at my school) as well as "UMD Humanities" (CS 1010 iirc) with Bacig.

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11-03-2011, 11:54 PM
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I just think they would want them in LA more than Minnesota.
I don't think the NFL is in any hurry to axe a top-15, affluent, Fortune-500 ridden market from its portfolio. Especially one with a storied history and a regional identity.

That's not to say they're going to blockade a move if the state gives them the shaft. But I think the NFL would be more than happy to see the Vikes get a deal done in Minnesota, hold LA over the heads of the last handful of markets that haven't erected football palaces, and then top everything off with a Jags/Rams/Raiders move to LA (or possibly another round of multi-billion dollar expansion fees).

If the Vikings move, I have a feeling the league will require ownership to keep the name (and hopefully history) in Minnesota for the reincarnate, much like what they did with the Browns. The name has too much equity in this region. I'm not sure why this didn't happen with Houston, but I think it was a mistake. That franchise deals with the same "when are we going to change our name back..." question that the Wild have been unable to shake after 11 years.

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11-04-2011, 01:24 AM
  #46
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The thing is, you allow two places that already offer gambling slot machines and bam, there's your money. No taxpayers lose a dime. Build a Block E venue and there's significantly more money to put into the state as well. But again, the tribes have the money and therefore the backing to make sure that never happens. So they'll have to try to make something work with E-Pull Tabs ( ) and some sort of tax.

I just can't see it.
I will never step foot in another casino if the Vikings move over this. Build a casino in Block E. Maybe one of the tribes can redirect lobbying funds towards a competitive bid on a premium downtown casino.

The argument against the expansion of gambling isn't completely insignificant, but people who gamble are going to gamble and it's time the state gets a cut. I think an MOA site would be the ideal location to maximize the percentage of out-of-state coin. But whatever, LRT access from the airport, get some people downtown, sounds good to me. You're not exactly ruining the fabric of the community in this part of downtown.

Keep it classy, appeal to the right demographic, don't cut corners, get a share to education and infrastructure. I will not forget the name of any politician who gets this done.

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11-04-2011, 01:51 AM
  #47
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It is for an advanced writing course. any social science type major has to take. i go to umd, her name is avessa rockwell, but ive had just about every econ teacher here if thats what u were thinkin.
Im really not looking forward to taking that writing class next semester at umd. Not much of writer

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11-04-2011, 02:17 AM
  #48
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The thing is, you allow two places that already offer gambling slot machines and bam, there's your money. No taxpayers lose a dime. Build a Block E venue and there's significantly more money to put into the state as well. But again, the tribes have the money and therefore the backing to make sure that never happens. So they'll have to try to make something work with E-Pull Tabs ( ) and some sort of tax.

I just can't see it.
Do the tribes pay anything in the way of taxes to the state as it is?

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11-04-2011, 05:26 AM
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Here is the question though....if the Vikings leave and the Metrodome is demolished...what are the odds that Minneapolis builds a new hockey arena in its place within the next 9 years? That area is PRIME for a sports venue I don't care what way you look at it. By 2020, the Xcel is 20 years old....do we go the way of Detroit and keep the Joe for all eternity or do we go State of the Art and put in our more popular and vibrant city??


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11-04-2011, 05:30 AM
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Do the tribes pay anything in the way of taxes to the state as it is?
They contribute a lot of money to political interests to my knowledge. US Constitution states:

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Article I, Section 2, Clause 3 states that "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States ... excluding Indians not taxed."[1]
You guys have to remember that Reservation land is essentially a sovereign nation. Hence why if something happens there, the FBI investigates it...not PD. They are a VERY large employer to the state (6th overall) as well.

http://www.mnindiangamingassoc.com/i...aming_101.html

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