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Fraser: A Tough Call Against Islanders On Saturday

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Old
11-01-2011, 04:09 PM
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Fraser: A Tough Call Against Islanders On Saturday

My Letter gets answered by Fraser

http://tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=379410

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11-01-2011, 04:30 PM
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Great response, I love that he does this, it's a different view to look from.

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11-01-2011, 04:31 PM
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Nice work! Glad to get his opinion on the matter.

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11-01-2011, 06:25 PM
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Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by kevin27NYI View Post
Great response, I love that he does this, it's a different view to look from.
To be honest, as long-winded as his response is, Fraser totally sidesteps the actual issue, which is: How can four guys meet and decide that something that was fact actually WASN'T fact (namely, that the puck hit the glass before going out). There was NO WAY any of them could have been so certain of that. None whatsoever. They simply HAD to give Hamonic the benefit of the doubt. That was the only one decision to be made here - and they clearly had some doubts, otherwise they would not have met to discuss the issue. A simple face-off should have ensued in the middle and 4-on-4 should have continued.

Basta!

When uncertain, you cannot - you ethically cannot - decide to give one team such an advantage and clearly there was noooooooooo certainty in this call. Not a one of those guys could have been 110%, as Fraser alludes to.

This wasn't just an honest mistake and that's what really, really bugs me. This was a borderline intentful disregard for giving a harmless play the benefit of the doubt, which should always be the case, especially at any point in the game deemed critical - which includes all 5 minutes of OT.

Also, that the young linesman threw Nielsen out of the ensuing faceoff, damn well knowing that he was the only forward out there, was a DISGRACE.

Don Cherry has hit on this topic a number of times - the audacity that some of these linesmen have, particularly the new ones, to be throwing out guys left and right on a single whim.

I don't how many folks here have noticed this in the first nine games, but Nielsen is getting thrown out ALL THE TIME! I think Okposo has ended up taking about 70% of the faceoffs that Nielsen has lined up for. This is just ridiculous, as certain players on every team are darn-well known for being a teams better face-off guys - and Nielsen is the guy on the Isle. This skill of Nielsen's has been turned into a non-factor for whatever reason these guys are determining that his style deserves to see him sent out. Have you noticed that he isn't doing that thing anymore where he lunges in there and goes on one knee???

Wanna guess why???

Let's just hope Fraser's praise of Capuano (who I feel is too kind, but which at least avoids penalties, which the league seems to be dishing out any time someone says something about the refs) doesn't go unnoticed in the refs' guild, and that it is also 'honored' at some point.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 11-01-2011 at 06:32 PM.
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11-01-2011, 06:30 PM
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kerry did say this was a ROOKIE linesman who was doing that drop.. probably the same one who muffed up the 2 icing calls in the game where there was a whistle for it when it wasnt icing forcing a neutral zone faceoff...

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11-01-2011, 08:17 PM
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All my years of coaching I finally got a reff to talk to me....
I do like the coaches challenge Idea but any new rule will bring aches and pains.

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11-01-2011, 08:22 PM
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Good job!

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11-01-2011, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
Good job!
Like Chapin said lets hope Cappys post game puts him in a better light with officiating crews.

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11-02-2011, 12:30 AM
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If the Islanders miss the last playoff spot by one point, that "Alexander Pope Divinity Award" will be a lovely consolation prize.

Also, it's ironic that Fraser quotes Alexander Pope, who interpreted the Iliad (tragic drama, more irony) into English when the four blind officials couldn't interpret a simple Delay of Game call.

Nice that he had the cojones to answer, but the answer was as satisfying as a marriage to Kim Kardashian.

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11-02-2011, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
To be honest, as long-winded as his response is, Fraser totally sidesteps the actual issue, which is: How can four guys meet and decide that something that was fact actually WASN'T fact (namely, that the puck hit the glass before going out). There was NO WAY any of them could have been so certain of that. None whatsoever. They simply HAD to give Hamonic the benefit of the doubt. That was the only one decision to be made here - and they clearly had some doubts, otherwise they would not have met to discuss the issue. A simple face-off should have ensued in the middle and 4-on-4 should have continued.

Basta!

When uncertain, you cannot - you ethically cannot - decide to give one team such an advantage and clearly there was noooooooooo certainty in this call. Not a one of those guys could have been 110%, as Fraser alludes to.

This wasn't just an honest mistake and that's what really, really bugs me. This was a borderline intentful disregard for giving a harmless play the benefit of the doubt, which should always be the case, especially at any point in the game deemed critical - which includes all 5 minutes of OT.

Also, that the young linesman threw Nielsen out of the ensuing faceoff, damn well knowing that he was the only forward out there, was a DISGRACE.

Don Cherry has hit on this topic a number of times - the audacity that some of these linesmen have, particularly the new ones, to be throwing out guys left and right on a single whim.

I don't how many folks here have noticed this in the first nine games, but Nielsen is getting thrown out ALL THE TIME! I think Okposo has ended up taking about 70% of the faceoffs that Nielsen has lined up for. This is just ridiculous, as certain players on every team are darn-well known for being a teams better face-off guys - and Nielsen is the guy on the Isle. This skill of Nielsen's has been turned into a non-factor for whatever reason these guys are determining that his style deserves to see him sent out. Have you noticed that he isn't doing that thing anymore where he lunges in there and goes on one knee???

Wanna guess why???

Let's just hope Fraser's praise of Capuano (who I feel is too kind, but which at least avoids penalties, which the league seems to be dishing out any time someone says something about the refs) doesn't go unnoticed in the refs' guild, and that it is also 'honored' at some point.
The officiating guard has changed, and not for the better. I don't like Steve Walkom, Don Van Massenhoven used to be really good, but even before his injury, he was getting worse. Chris Rooney is kind of a punk. And with the face shields and he numbers, many of them are unidentifiable.

Here's what I noticed tonight in the Detroit game, and I only saw overtime. There was a penalty called against Franzen for goaltender interference, which I really think was the right call. But after the ensuing face-off, there was some positioning going on in front of the Red Wing net and the puck was behind the ref in the corner. Rather than follow the play, the ref is addressing the players in front of the net who were trying to gain position. Meanwhile, Mikko Koivu pretty much puts a Van Damme type sneaky backwards check into Nik Kronwall (essentially interference), but because the ref wasn't watching the play, it was missed, Minnesota scores, and the game's over.

I think that the refs are worrying about all the wrong crap. And it's across the board, from kids' rec league right through the NHL. But sticking with the NHL, like I said, these guys are unidentifiable now. In general, like Don Cherry says, there's no line of communication, and their attitude seems to be, "tough crap, it's my call. I'm in control of this game, and you can't tell me." - Also, and this may seem meaningless to some, but they all wear visors now, and that makes all of them look the same, and it also breaks eye contact, whether they're talking with the coaches or the players.

I don't know if it's that I'm older now, or what, but there was a time that I would watch any game that was on. Now I just watch the Islanders, and I don't really have much interest in watching the rest of the league. I'm not necessarily going to blame that on the refs, but there's a real purity missing from the game in general. There are no real strong characters. Everything is pretty much no-frills. Too many black and white rules. Too many rules period. There are a lot of changes that I'd like to see in the game, but I'm probably never going to see them. And some of what I'd like to see would shock many. But ultimately, it doesn't matter.

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11-02-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bauer Warrior View Post
The officiating guard has changed, and not for the better. I don't like Steve Walkom, Don Van Massenhoven used to be really good, but even before his injury, he was getting worse. Chris Rooney is kind of a punk. And with the face shields and he numbers, many of them are unidentifiable.

Here's what I noticed tonight in the Detroit game, and I only saw overtime. There was a penalty called against Franzen for goaltender interference, which I really think was the right call. But after the ensuing face-off, there was some positioning going on in front of the Red Wing net and the puck was behind the ref in the corner. Rather than follow the play, the ref is addressing the players in front of the net who were trying to gain position. Meanwhile, Mikko Koivu pretty much puts a Van Damme type sneaky backwards check into Nik Kronwall (essentially interference), but because the ref wasn't watching the play, it was missed, Minnesota scores, and the game's over.

I think that the refs are worrying about all the wrong crap. And it's across the board, from kids' rec league right through the NHL. But sticking with the NHL, like I said, these guys are unidentifiable now. In general, like Don Cherry says, there's no line of communication, and their attitude seems to be, "tough crap, it's my call. I'm in control of this game, and you can't tell me." - Also, and this may seem meaningless to some, but they all wear visors now, and that makes all of them look the same, and it also breaks eye contact, whether they're talking with the coaches or the players.

I don't know if it's that I'm older now, or what, but there was a time that I would watch any game that was on. Now I just watch the Islanders, and I don't really have much interest in watching the rest of the league. I'm not necessarily going to blame that on the refs, but there's a real purity missing from the game in general. There are no real strong characters. Everything is pretty much no-frills. Too many black and white rules. Too many rules period. There are a lot of changes that I'd like to see in the game, but I'm probably never going to see them. And some of what I'd like to see would shock many. But ultimately, it doesn't matter.
In parts of last season, but really now in this season, I feel my game has been taken. Watching the Eurohockey is one thing, where the guys simply can't hit a guy anymore, but even the NHL game is losing so much, because - like you say - there are no frills and too many rules.

Some things I've noticed:
- Dmen are regularly pushing forwards into their own goalies and the forwards are being given 'Goaltending interference' calls
- Far too many players are being sent out of the faceoff circles without even being consulted.
- There have been a number of elbow penalties, namely to the head, where the replay shows that a guy clearly hit his opponent with his shoulder and that opponent's head was not the contact point, but rather was 'shoved' in the process of his shoulder/chest being contacted.
- Amongst the players, almost any time there's a big hit, someone goes in and fights. It's getting ridiculous.

In addition, this line is one that is hard to hold between the refs.

The worries about headshots are a concern, but it seems like a penalty is given anytime a guy who puts himself into a poor position is checked, even if the check is absolutely fair.

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11-02-2011, 09:18 AM
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The parts that stood out for me was his admission that the call was blown. It was compounded further by the linesman dismissing Neilsen from the faceoff circle as well.

I can understand in the heat of the moment with all going on that you can have trouble seeing the puck clear the playing surface clean or clipping the glass as it did.

I also am pleased to see advocacy to have a coaches challenge rule put in place. It would be greatly welcome to the game, and I think it could help improve the game.

We got hosed on the call — but we also need to move on. Thursday's game is important. A win will ease a lot of the tension on the team, its fans, etc.

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11-02-2011, 10:46 AM
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I never even thought about Nielsen getting kicked out of the face off. Was still fuming about the penalty.

But if you also add the in zone face off after the Isles elected not to touch the handpass wirh about 15 seconds left then that is 3 incidents where an officials decision almost cost the Isles.

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11-02-2011, 12:01 PM
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EVERY SINGLE TEAM GETS A BAD CALL EVERY TEAM.
they balance out over the course of a season

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11-02-2011, 12:09 PM
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Tough is the wrong word. maybe he should have used the word brutal.

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Old
11-02-2011, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
In parts of last season, but really now in this season, I feel my game has been taken. Watching the Eurohockey is one thing, where the guys simply can't hit a guy anymore, but even the NHL game is losing so much, because - like you say - there are no frills and too many rules.

Some things I've noticed:
- Dmen are regularly pushing forwards into their own goalies and the forwards are being given 'Goaltending interference' calls
- Far too many players are being sent out of the faceoff circles without even being consulted.
- There have been a number of elbow penalties, namely to the head, where the replay shows that a guy clearly hit his opponent with his shoulder and that opponent's head was not the contact point, but rather was 'shoved' in the process of his shoulder/chest being contacted.
- Amongst the players, almost any time there's a big hit, someone goes in and fights. It's getting ridiculous.

In addition, this line is one that is hard to hold between the refs.

The worries about headshots are a concern, but it seems like a penalty is given anytime a guy who puts himself into a poor position is checked, even if the check is absolutely fair.
I agree. It's pretty much an XBOX game out there. Fankly, I'm concerned about it.

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11-02-2011, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
EVERY SINGLE TEAM GETS A BAD CALL EVERY TEAM.
they balance out over the course of a season
Obviously the Islanders will get a bad call in their favor at some point, but that might have been the worst penalty called in years. I dont think you will see one equally pathetic for or against all season. The sharks were granted an overtime PP for absolutely no reason. Its not like a bad tripping call, or a weak hooking call where the player has to give the official a reason ro making a call. Its a black and white rule. Puck hits glass, no penalty, and it was called correctly, and then out of nowhere a referee conference grants a powerplay for a play that never happened. It was astonishingly awful.

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11-02-2011, 03:38 PM
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Go back and look at everything he said. He never answered the question. His answer is no different than if you asked a judge if a cop who shot the wrong guy F'd up and the judge's answer was, "Son, being a policeman is a hard job."

It's not an answer, it is a cop out. If anything you should feel annoyed he dodged the issue.

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11-03-2011, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
...the judge's answer was, "Son, being a policeman is a hard job."

It's not an answer, it is a cop out.
No pun intended of course, eh?

And yes, he dodged the issue.

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11-03-2011, 08:17 AM
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what irks me most about this call was that the original call was that it hit the glass made by the lineman to the far right in front of the play.... to over turn that one of the other officials must have been pretty certain that it went over... If you look at the replay the was a ref stairing right at the play.... he did seem to make any motion.... the linesman who ducked did make any either .... that leaves the ref who was to the right of DP... the one guy who is in the worst postion to see what happened makes this call??? where were the other 3 guys says "how could you be certain seeing it from that angle"?

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11-03-2011, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Islander102 View Post
Obviously the Islanders will get a bad call in their favor at some point, but that might have been the worst penalty called in years. I dont think you will see one equally pathetic for or against all season. The sharks were granted an overtime PP for absolutely no reason. Its not like a bad tripping call, or a weak hooking call where the player has to give the official a reason ro making a call. Its a black and white rule. Puck hits glass, no penalty, and it was called correctly, and then out of nowhere a referee conference grants a powerplay for a play that never happened. It was astonishingly awful.
I disagree with your 100%. there will be some call that will go in our favor that some other teams fan base will feel the same way you feel right now about this bad call.
it will even it self out it always does. there has been games won and lost do to bad calls since the start of hockey.
This is one of those times. It sounds like every tesm fan base "refs" hate us blah blah blah.

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11-03-2011, 10:59 AM
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I disagree with your 100%. there will be some call that will go in our favor that some other teams fan base will feel the same way you feel right now about this bad call.
it will even it self out it always does. there has been games won and lost do to bad calls since the start of hockey.
This is one of those times. It sounds like every tesm fan base "refs" hate us blah blah blah.
I dont think the referees hate us, or have a biased agenda or any of that crap. I just think its incredibly hard to come up with a call worse than that one. Like I said, its the only penalty in the rulebook that requires NO INTERPRETATION whatsoever, and it was called correctly, conferenced, and then called incorrectly. In overtime no less.

More bad calls will happen but I have my doubts that they can be that bad. The only thing worse would be messing up a goal call, but we have video review for that.

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11-03-2011, 12:42 PM
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I dont think the referees hate us, or have a biased agenda or any of that crap. I just think its incredibly hard to come up with a call worse than that one. Like I said, its the only penalty in the rulebook that requires NO INTERPRETATION whatsoever, and it was called correctly, conferenced, and then called incorrectly. In overtime no less.

More bad calls will happen but I have my doubts that they can be that bad. The only thing worse would be messing up a goal call, but we have video review for that.
Maybe Fraser can work this bad call into the excuse for the next one.

KF: Listen, when we screwed up in the Isles-Sharks game, everyone thought that was going to be untoppable, you know, the pièce de résistance.... the Mount Everest of bad officiating. Now this call last night, I don't want to say we did it JUST to top ourselves, but you know, our guys can't sit back on their past bad calls, they really need to keep striving. Plus, we really want the fans on Long Island to understand they have not been singled out. Look at the bright side, we will probably outdo ourselves in the weeks and months to come again. It's a tough job. By the way, we are considering a new technology, we call it the penalty roulette. When the on-ice personnel really didn't see the play they can go over to the bench and retrieve a board with an arrow -- you remember that thing from Twister? The referee will then flick the arrow into a spinning motion, and when it stops it will land on one of 8 random penalties or 2 "no penalty" spaces on the board, kinda like roulette. We don't really think this is fair or accurate either, but at least it will be more transparent to the fans as to what really happened.... One other thing - we have received many inquiries from Davis Vision and various local ophthalmologists to officially sponsor these moments, so there's a win in there too.

KF: Wait, did I answer your question?

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11-03-2011, 06:11 PM
  #24
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EVERY SINGLE TEAM GETS A BAD CALL EVERY TEAM.
they balance out over the course of a season
You are right about this sentence. What you are neglecting to add is that not every team will get fleeced on a call that obviously costs them a point. TOTALLY different story. We aren't talking about a trivial 2nd period hand pass.

As far as those of you criticizing Fraser's response. He said the refs blew it? What else did you want him to say. He explained it perfectly. He even said that with all refs getting together they should have been 110% sure it hit the glass or they needed to eat a no call. I don't know why anyone can say he sidestepped it. Not only did he say they blew it he brought up a second glaring mistake made by a rookie linesman. What did you want him to protest the game and pickett out side Bettman's office?

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