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Enroth again superb but Miller's # 1

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11-03-2011, 01:57 PM
  #201
bfloMatt
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Just don't understand the seemingly unconditional love for Miller around here. Sorry, I just don't get it. More so, I don't understand why everyone seems to jump on the minority for saying that perhaps this team would be better without him in the resources were spent adequately. That's a big "perhaps", because this team has a lot more problems than Miller and anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves.

I'd give Enroth the start regardless of if it was planned or not, and then give Miller Ottawa. It's not time to push the panic button, but I will say if Miller shows no signs of life in the next 10 games then you have to ride the hot hand, whether it's Enroth or Miller at times until otherwise necessary.

This guy is not above anyone on the team and should be treated as such. Boudreau sat Ovechkin for the last 2 minutes the other night. I was there and watched that exchange. I give credit to the guy for sticking to his guns and riding the hot line which got them the win. I'd expect similar treatment for Miller if he doesn't turn it around.

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11-03-2011, 02:00 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloMatt View Post
Just don't understand the seemingly unconditional love for Miller around here. Sorry, I just don't get it. More so, I don't understand why everyone seems to jump on the minority for saying that perhaps this team would be better without him in the resources were spent adequately. That's a big "perhaps", because this team has a lot more problems than Miller and anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves.

I'd give Enroth the start regardless of if it was planned or not, and then give Miller Ottawa. It's not time to push the panic button, but I will say if Miller shows no signs of life in the next 10 games then you have to ride the hot hand, whether it's Enroth or Miller at times until otherwise necessary.

Because that arguement is nonsense, always has been.


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This guy is not above anyone on the team and should be treated as such. Boudreau sat Ovechkin for the last 2 minutes the other night. I was there and watched that exchange. I give credit to the guy for sticking to his guns and riding the hot line which got them the win. I'd expect similar treatment for Miller if he doesn't turn it around.
I case you missed it, Miller was pulled last night.

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11-03-2011, 02:08 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by bfloMatt View Post
Just don't understand the seemingly unconditional love for Miller around here...
I stopped reading there when you pointed out to everyone that you've put your head in the sand, and your fingers in your ears.

Have you read these boards in the last week? Unconditional love for Miller? What?

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11-03-2011, 02:15 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Because that arguement is nonsense, always has been.




I case you missed it, Miller was pulled last night.
You have no proof of this. I'd rather have spent Miller's cap hit on a guy like Brad Richards and then roll out Enroth and a journeyman backup. It really depends what they do with the money.

There's just not enough separation between good and great goaltenders in this league, and Enroth can certainly still be a great goaltender. He's done nothing but win and make big saves since he's been in the league.

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11-03-2011, 02:17 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Because that arguement is nonsense, always has been.
It's hardly nonsense. What is nonsense is complacency with the status quo. If anyone on this team could be packaged in a deal to make this team better, you look at it every time. If there ever came a time to where it made sense for both the Sabres and club X to work a trade around Miller for a #1 or very good 1b center (who plays a power game, not this perimeter crap), you look at it.

It's all about valuation. When you have limited resources (salary cap), you judge every asset based on its current and future value and attempt to find a way to optimize those assets by "importing/exporting".

Any argument that any player is above a trade is pure nonsense, period.


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I case you missed it, Miller was pulled last night.
You guys are brutal. He was pulled 6 minutes in after both he and the team looked awful. I've played hockey my entire life and I know many of you all have too, so I'm sure we can agree him getting pulled was not just because he let in 2 goals that probably shouldn't have gone in, but was also used as a tactic to try and wake the team up.

Last night was a combination. If you want to see something that is solely a shot at Miller, it's riding Enroth for even a 2 game stretch.

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11-03-2011, 02:19 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I stopped reading there when you pointed out to everyone that you've put your head in the sand, and your fingers in your ears.

Have you read these boards in the last week? Unconditional love for Miller? What?
Again, you guys are brutal. Yes, I have read the boards. What I continue to see is the same 3-4 people who question Miller's past / present play, and have brought up the question of whether or not a new direction is needed now or in the future. The response from the majority is that these people are crazy and need to step back from the ledge.

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11-03-2011, 02:22 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by kpatterson14206 View Post
You have no proof of this. I'd rather have spent Miller's cap hit on a guy like Brad Richards and then roll out Enroth and a journeyman backup. It really depends what they do with the money.

There's just not enough separation between good and great goaltenders in this league, and Enroth can certainly still be a great goaltender. He's done nothing but win and make big saves since he's been in the league.
How does this statement work? Miller signed years ago, Richards signed this offseason. Did we trade Miller for only prospects and picks, and have no salary coming back? Am I being too literal?

I would've rather they signed Richards instead of Leino, and then traded Boyes for a pick. At least that makes some chronological sense and works with our current cap situation.

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11-03-2011, 03:05 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloMatt View Post
Again, you guys are brutal. Yes, I have read the boards. What I continue to see is the same 3-4 people who question Miller's past / present play, and have brought up the question of whether or not a new direction is needed now or in the future. The response from the majority is that these people are crazy and need to step back from the ledge.
There's a huge disconnect here.

"Unconditional love for Miller" is NOT the same as not wanting to trade/bench him.

Don't go down that road.

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11-03-2011, 03:16 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
How does this statement work? Miller signed years ago, Richards signed this offseason. Did we trade Miller for only prospects and picks, and have no salary coming back? Am I being too literal?

I would've rather they signed Richards instead of Leino, and then traded Boyes for a pick. At least that makes some chronological sense and works with our current cap situation.
With how Adam has played so far, I'm even of the opinion that we perhaps should have waited on the center situation. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't want to deal with Richard's contract. The cap hit isn't terrible for his value, but the duration would worry me.

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11-03-2011, 03:21 PM
  #210
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A convenient little fact that seems to be lost on a few of you... Brad Richards wanted NOTHING to do with Buffalo NY. Nothing. So please stop trying to make an argument out of Brad freaking Richards. Wow.

How long has Miller been "bad"? Answer this objectively, not with your strong bias!

How long has Enroth been good in the NHL? Answer this objectively, not with your strong bias!

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11-03-2011, 05:45 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by bfloMatt View Post
Again, you guys are brutal. Yes, I have read the boards. What I continue to see is the same 3-4 people who question Miller's past / present play, and have brought up the question of whether or not a new direction is needed now or in the future. The response from the majority is that these people are crazy and need to step back from the ledge.
but just to make sure i "stay on topic", ill say that miller is a great goalie, and hes playing like ****. bench him for a few games, let enroth run his tank dry while miller applies the vaseline to his ring finger and gets his **** together. then put miller back in, let him prove hes not as soft as hes playing and get on with the season. maybe he can still salvage those vezina hopes. id love to see it!


Last edited by vcv: 11-03-2011 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Yeah, "stay on topic"
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11-03-2011, 06:23 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
A convenient little fact that seems to be lost on a few of you... Brad Richards wanted NOTHING to do with Buffalo NY. Nothing. So please stop trying to make an argument out of Brad freaking Richards. Wow.

How long has Miller been "bad"? Answer this objectively, not with your strong bias!

How long has Enroth been good in the NHL? Answer this objectively, not with your strong bias!
Brad Richards wanted to go to New York and drive up his price in the process. That's pretty clear at this point.

Nothing to do with Buffalo.

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11-03-2011, 06:47 PM
  #213
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Brad Richards wanted to go to New York and drive up his price in the process. That's pretty clear at this point.

Nothing to do with Buffalo.
I don't know if this is at all true. All that we learned about that process is that the Sabres would have had to wait until too late in the afternoon to talk to him, because the company running his contracts was fielding so many offers, and were going to take their sweet time about it. Obviously, the Sabres weren't his top choice, or he'd had put us at the front of the line, but if we'd waited around and pitched him the best offer, I see no real evidence that says he would've said no.

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11-03-2011, 08:12 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I don't know if this is at all true. All that we learned about that process is that the Sabres would have had to wait until too late in the afternoon to talk to him, because the company running his contracts was fielding so many offers, and were going to take their sweet time about it. Obviously, the Sabres weren't his top choice, or he'd had put us at the front of the line, but if we'd waited around and pitched him the best offer, I see no real evidence that says he would've said no.
Funny, how I remember it, and if I'm wrong I am sure I'll get corrected.

Pegula and Regier were told to NOT EVEN COME to the agents office because there is no use. Brad Richards simply is not interested in living in the Buffalo area, let alone playing for the Sabres. So it was stopped before it began. So to even bring up Brad Richards like he was a player we could of got if only we "played our cards better" is
Flat.Out.Wrong.

We had just as much of a chance of convincing Mario Lemieux to play for us. Zero.


But hey, I might be wrong

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11-03-2011, 09:19 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Funny, how I remember it, and if I'm wrong I am sure I'll get corrected.

Pegula and Regier were told to NOT EVEN COME to the agents office because there is no use. Brad Richards simply is not interested in living in the Buffalo area, let alone playing for the Sabres. So it was stopped before it began. So to even bring up Brad Richards like he was a player we could of got if only we "played our cards better" is
Flat.Out.Wrong.

We had just as much of a chance of convincing Mario Lemieux to play for us. Zero.


But hey, I might be wrong
Do you have a source? All I heard reported was the Sabres dropping out, in part because they had to wait so long that they were afraid of missing out on "plan B".

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11-03-2011, 09:31 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by volatile View Post
Do you have a source? All I heard reported was the Sabres dropping out, in part because they had to wait so long that they were afraid of missing out on "plan B".
I'd have to look back at HFBoards a few months ago. But I remember posters talking about a report of Pegula and Regier not leaving Buffalo because they were told Richards wasn't interested in Buffalo at all. Maybe someone can help out with this too. Again, I could be wrong.

Volatile check this out...

http://www.wgr550.com/pages/10257785.php?

Oh well I tried googling HFBoards buffalo Sabres brad Richards and came up with "mission impossible: landing brad Richards" which ended with Clock closing the thread and suggesting to continue the talk on the UFA thread. But I couldn't find that thread.


Last edited by ZZamboni: 11-03-2011 at 09:59 PM.
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11-03-2011, 10:32 PM
  #217
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Save percentages of the top goaltenders in the league over the last three seasons (min. 4000 saves)

Thomas .9301
Vokoun .9240
Miller .9211
Hiller .9201
Rinne .9200
Luongo .9199
Lundqvist: .9199
Ward .9185
Bryzgalov .9159
Price .9149
Backstrom .9145
Quick .9123

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11-03-2011, 11:09 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Save percentages of the top goaltenders in the league over the last three seasons (min. 4000 saves)

Thomas .9301
Vokoun .9240
Miller .9211
Hiller .9201
Rinne .9200
Luongo .9199
Lundqvist: .9199
Ward .9185
Bryzgalov .9159
Price .9149
Backstrom .9145
Quick .9123
First, I'll preface my post by saying I want Miller to be the #1 goalie.

Second, that is a flawed stat you are putting up. Why only three years? Why not four or five? Maybe because Miller's great year a couple seasons ago wouldn't make those stats look so brilliant?

Miller has only had 1 NHL season with a save % over .920. His career save percentage is .915

Now, lets compare that to the goalies you listed:

Tim Thomas has had 3. (.922 career)
Tomas Vokoun has had 4. (.917 career)
Jonas Hiller has had 2. (.920 career)
Pekka Rinne has had 1. (.920 career)
Roberto Luongo has had 5. (.919 career)
Henrik Lundqvist has had 3. (.919 career)
Cam Ward has had 1. (.910 career)
Ilya Bryzgalov has had 3. (.915 career)
Carey Price has had 2. (.915 career)
Niklas Backstrom has had 3. (.917 career)
Jonathan Quick has 0. (.913 career)

11 of the above mentioned goalies have more seasons of .920 or higher and 2 have the same, and 1 has less than Miller.

7 have a higher career save percentage, 2 the same and 2 below.

Those are more accurate.

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11-03-2011, 11:26 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Second, that is a flawed stat you are putting up. Why only three years? Why not four or five? Maybe because Miller's great year a couple seasons ago wouldn't make those stats look so brilliant?
I always go back three seasons. I find it to be the most representative sample size, because it's large enough, takes into account recent history, and will usually include at least one good season and one not as good season. I do this for offense, as well. If you're implying I cherrypicked seasons, you're wrong. If I wanted to do that, I would've stopped at his Vezina season; instead, I went back to 2008-09.

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Miller has only had 1 NHL season with a save % over .920. His career save percentage is .915
What's your point? Are we to consider what Ryan Miller's numbers were in the two seasons after the lockout to determine whether he should lose his starting job now, or be traded now? I want to know what the guy has done more recently, and I'm not talking about the last two weeks.

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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Now, lets compare that to the goalies you listed:

Tim Thomas has had 3. (.922 career)
Tomas Vokoun has had 4. (.917 career)
Jonas Hiller has had 2. (.920 career)
Pekka Rinne has had 1. (.920 career)
Roberto Luongo has had 5. (.919 career)
Henrik Lundqvist has had 3. (.919 career)
Cam Ward has had 1. (.910 career)
Ilya Bryzgalov has had 3. (.915 career)
Carey Price has had 2. (.915 career)
Niklas Backstrom has had 3. (.917 career)
Jonathan Quick has 0. (.913 career)
This cuts both ways. This also means that in the recent seasons where they weren't above .920, they had bad seasons. Again, I don't care what their career SV%'s are. I want to know what they've done lately. I don't care what Marty Brodeur did in 2005 if I'm trying to make a decision today--which is more or less what this thread is about: what we should do now.

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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
11 of the above mentioned goalies have more seasons of .920 or higher and 2 have the same, and 1 has less than Miller.

7 have a higher career save percentage, 2 the same and 2 below.

Those are more accurate.
Not really. They're just different. I want to know what goaltenders have done recently and in a representative sample size. Career SV% satisfies the latter, but not really the former.

Over the past three years, Miller has been a top-5 goaltender. That's why you don't dump him or demote him to backup over 2.5 bad games.

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11-03-2011, 11:35 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I always go back three seasons. I find it to be the most representative sample size, because it's large enough, takes into account recent history, and will usually include at least one good season and one not as good season. I do this for offense, as well. If you're implying I cherrypicked seasons, you're wrong. If I wanted to do that, I would've stopped at his Vezina season; instead, I went back to 2008-09.



What's your point? Are we to consider what Ryan Miller's numbers were in the two seasons after the lockout to determine whether he should lose his starting job now, or be traded now? I want to know what the guy has done more recently, and I'm not talking about the last two weeks.



This cuts both ways. This also means that in the recent seasons where they weren't above .920, they had bad seasons. Again, I don't care what their career SV%'s are. I want to know what they've done lately. I don't care what Marty Brodeur did in 2005 if I'm trying to make a decision today--which is more or less what this thread is about: what we should do now.



Not really. They're just different. I want to know what goaltenders have done recently and in a representative sample size. Career SV% satisfies the latter, but not really the former.

Over the past three years, Miller has been a top-5 goaltender. That's why you don't dump him or demote him to backup over 2.5 bad games.
Pretty much any goalie that has that great of a year is going to have inflated numbers over a three year period.

That year so inflated his numbers that the three year period you mention pushes his save percentage to .922 over that time. We all know that isn't representative of the way Ryan Miller plays goal. He has only reached that number 1 time in his whole career.


Last edited by vcv: 11-04-2011 at 06:39 AM. Reason: Don't tell someone they are a liar
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11-04-2011, 10:34 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by 5 Minute Major View Post
Pretty much any goalie that has that great of a year is going to have inflated numbers over a three year period.

That year so inflated his numbers that the three year period you mention pushes his save percentage to .922 over that time. We all know that isn't representative of the way Ryan Miller plays goal. He has only reached that number 1 time in his whole career.
On the other hand, he is capable of being that goalie. Our defense that year was good but not stellar (in fact other than Tallinder-Myers turning out to be a great top pair, I'd say our other pairings were pretty weak). He's not injured or anything, he's 31 years old - no reason he can't return to that form again, even if it is unsustainable for long periods.

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