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Old
11-03-2011, 02:10 PM
  #1
TheMadHatTrick
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Trade Proposal: Predators & Leafs

Hey guys Leafs fan here in peace. Just curious about what the situation is with you guys and your big 3 (Weber, Rinne, Suter). Is there any chance either of them gets traded. If so, who is more likely to go, and what would it take to acquire them?

The Leafs have a lot of young talent both on the roster, in the AHL, and in Junior, as well as all of their picks next year. Our best young players are probably D- Gunnarson, Schenn, Gardiner, Franson, Aulie, Blacker, Percy. F- Kadri, Colbourne, Frattin , Mckegg, Ross, Biggs, Leivo. G- Scrivens, Rynnas.

See HF

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/toronto_maple_leafs

How would this look like as a proposal for Weber:

Shea Weber for Luke Schenn, Jesse Blacker, Nazem Kadri, and a 1st rounder.

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11-03-2011, 02:15 PM
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Roman Yoshi
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Pass.

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11-03-2011, 02:19 PM
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The only player that makes sense is Kessel, and that's not happening. Just like Montreal, I don't think we make very good partners.

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11-03-2011, 02:35 PM
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The only player that makes sense is Kessel, and that's not happening. Just like Montreal, I don't think we make very good partners.
Agreed.

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11-03-2011, 05:46 PM
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glenngineer
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While others say pass, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I would've done it just for Schenn and Kadri. Schenn and Suter would form a great top pairing. Kadri gives us some forward depth with a lot of upside. The 1st is a bonus. Not sure who the other kid is. At that point it's gravy.

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11-03-2011, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
While others say pass, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I would've done it just for Schenn and Kadri. Schenn and Suter would form a great top pairing. Kadri gives us some forward depth with a lot of upside. The 1st is a bonus. Not sure who the other kid is. At that point it's gravy.
I see Schenn as a Hamhuis type guy, and I don't see Kadri being a significant upgrade over any of our forward prospects. I don't think it'd be worth it.

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11-03-2011, 05:59 PM
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I'd rather keep Weber, but if we traded him....

Schenn+Grabo/Kulemin+pick/prospect?

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11-03-2011, 07:40 PM
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For you guys who don't ever watch the leafs, schenn has alot of adam foote type qualities. That should be more your projection. I'd take the deal if a deal couldn't be reached

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11-03-2011, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
While others say pass, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I would've done it just for Schenn and Kadri. Schenn and Suter would form a great top pairing. Kadri gives us some forward depth with a lot of upside. The 1st is a bonus. Not sure who the other kid is. At that point it's gravy.
My thoughts as well, with a couple qualifiers:

1.) If Weber was willing to re-sign, that should be the preference, unless signing Weber, Suter and with Rinne's new contract that meant that the team would be hard up against an internal cap, then I'd keep Rinne and Suter and trade Weber for a better balance.

Kadri adds forward depth (which is needed) and Schenn is a solid defenseman (and from what I know has some leadership potential) to help fill Weber's spot in the top four, and leaves some cap space to improve the team elsewhere. Don't know the Jesse guy, but a 1st would be nice as well.

2.) While this deal seems fine if Weber is not looking to stay, there'll be other deals that it would have to be measured against. Vancouver could offer something like Ballard/Edler (if Edler was in there then something would be needed on Nashville's end to balance out, probably pick/prospect as we would already be having trouble making salary work) + Raymond (once he proved healthy) + Schroeder + 1st, on the Edmonton board there's equivalent offers and Philly has some attractive assets, maybe Parise for a Weber type thing...

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11-04-2011, 02:16 AM
  #10
TheMadHatTrick
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Originally Posted by MarkMM View Post
My thoughts as well, with a couple qualifiers:

1.) If Weber was willing to re-sign, that should be the preference, unless signing Weber, Suter and with Rinne's new contract that meant that the team would be hard up against an internal cap, then I'd keep Rinne and Suter and trade Weber for a better balance.

Kadri adds forward depth (which is needed) and Schenn is a solid defenseman (and from what I know has some leadership potential) to help fill Weber's spot in the top four, and leaves some cap space to improve the team elsewhere. Don't know the Jesse guy, but a 1st would be nice as well.

2.) While this deal seems fine if Weber is not looking to stay, there'll be other deals that it would have to be measured against. Vancouver could offer something like Ballard/Edler (if Edler was in there then something would be needed on Nashville's end to balance out, probably pick/prospect as we would already be having trouble making salary work) + Raymond (once he proved healthy) + Schroeder + 1st, on the Edmonton board there's equivalent offers and Philly has some attractive assets, maybe Parise for a Weber type thing...
I think a Weber for Parise deal would give you guys the best value, but at the same time Parise is a highly coveted UFA this summer, and as arguably a top 5 player in the NHL, he might make way more than Weber would command, and a year earlier to boot.

I don't think anyone believes the Predators want to trade Weber, but if it reaches the point that they have to for salary implications, you guys are going to want young, controllable players with upside.

As far as the players I proposed. I'll be candid, Schenn has been by far our worst defenceman this year, but he's a former top 5 pick, is only 21, is signed for 5 more years at 3.5 per, and was arguably our best defenceman just last season.

Kadri is a former 7th overall pick, he's a left winger with lots of offensive upside, and pretty good grit. He's smallish, and will need to bulk up, but he's only 20, so that should happen with time. I thought he's looked really good this year, but some Leafs fans aren't happy with him. He's a future top line forward but he doesn't fit into our top 6 right now.

Blacker is one of our top D prospects. A former second round pick currently in the AHL. Played for the OHL champ Owen Sound Attack last year. A gritty, all-aroubd defenceman, who loves to hit, and has a solid offensive game.

Right now the prospects/young players I would be most reluctant to trade are Gunnarson, Gardiner (both D-men) and Colbourne (a potential top line centre).

As for the guy who wanted Grabovski and Kulemin, dude, that's like 2/3 of our second line which accounted for 60% of our points last year.

Also Ballard sucks. Just saying.

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11-04-2011, 02:27 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopreds9 View Post
I'd rather keep Weber, but if we traded him....

Schenn+Grabo/Kulemin+pick/prospect?
Wow thats all it would take?

I wouldnt tradeRyan for that and Weber has more value then Ryan IMO.

Sbisa+Etem+1st

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Old
11-04-2011, 01:43 PM
  #12
TheMadHatTrick
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
Wow thats all it would take?

I wouldnt tradeRyan for that and Weber has more value then Ryan IMO.

Sbisa+Etem+1st
LOL. No offense man but Kulemin scored 30 goals last year with 57 points, while Grabovski had 29 goals with 58 points. Kulemin is only 25 and Grabovski is 27. Then you add in Schenn who's only 21 and has probably the same upside as Suter, a pick , and a prospect, and you want Sbisa, Etam, and 1st instead.

First of all that would not only be a huge rip off from the Leafs perspective, but that Anaheim trade doesn't even come close to matching it, unless you add Smith-Pelley and Peter Holland/Kyle Palmieri.

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11-04-2011, 01:51 PM
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triggrman
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Yeah, that Toronto deal doesn't look bad at all....

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11-04-2011, 01:59 PM
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ThirdManIn
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So, gliff, you would trade Ryan for Sbisa, Etem, and a 1st?

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11-04-2011, 02:37 PM
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Gliff
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So, gliff, you would trade Ryan for Sbisa, Etem, and a 1st?
No thats my point. If you are gonna get railed from behind atleast let the Ducks do the railing

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11-04-2011, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TheMadHatTrick View Post
LOL. No offense man but Kulemin scored 30 goals last year with 57 points, while Grabovski had 29 goals with 58 points. Kulemin is only 25 and Grabovski is 27. Then you add in Schenn who's only 21 and has probably the same upside as Suter, a pick , and a prospect, and you want Sbisa, Etam, and 1st instead.

First of all that would not only be a huge rip off from the Leafs perspective, but that Anaheim trade doesn't even come close to matching it, unless you add Smith-Pelley and Peter Holland/Kyle Palmieri.
At first I thought you were a Preds fan and I was awestruck. Then I saw you were a leafs fan and all was right in the world.

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Old
11-04-2011, 03:42 PM
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TheMadHatTrick
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
At first I thought you were a Preds fan and I was awestruck. Then I saw you were a leafs fan and all was right in the world.
I don't know how good you think Suter is (yes we know he's good), or anything at all about Luke Schenn, but from your comments, I very much doubt the latter.

When Luke Schenn was drafted, Bob Mackenzie said he was the best Defensive Defenceman prospect he'd seen in ten years. There's a reason Schenn was taken 5th overall, two spots higher than Suter. Does that mean Luke is going to be the same type of player as Suter? No. (the Adam Foote comparison's probably the best). Does that mean he'll be as good as Suter? No again.

Now at only 21 yearsold, does he have the potential, given his pedigree to be as good or better than Suter? Absolutely. So does any prospect.

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11-04-2011, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadHatTrick View Post
I don't know how good you think Suter is (yes we know he's good), or anything at all about Luke Schenn, but from your comments, I very much doubt the latter.

When Luke Schenn was drafted, Bob Mackenzie said he was the best Defensive Defenceman prospect he'd seen in ten years. There's a reason Schenn was taken 5th overall, two spots higher than Suter. Does that mean Luke is going to be the same type of player as Suter? No. (the Adam Foote comparison's probably the best). Does that mean he'll be as good as Suter? No again.

Now at only 21 yearsold, does he have the potential, given his pedigree to be as good or better than Suter? Absolutely. So does any prospect.
Believe me, I know how good Schenn can be.

Fowler-Schenn 5 years from now :drool:

but do you think Fowler-Schenn will be better then Weber-Suter is right now?

I dont

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11-04-2011, 08:58 PM
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I have no real problem with the original proposal, but if I had to poke a hole in it I'd like a more experienced offensive threat. Call me crazy here but I'm thinking that we should do more of a straight-up deal for a bonafide star. I'm not going to name any names Zach Parise but if we have some cap issues from the standpoint of what we can and can't afford, are we better off getting a few solid players and taking on their salaries, or essentially just maybe getting a forward who makes Weber-type money? Hypothetically, say Parise goes off and makes 8-9 million a year for us that's around what Weber would've wanted anyway so we basically keep it even, except we trade excellent defense for a (gasp) great scorer.

On the other hand what if we were to make a deal where we shipped Weber somewhere for a return cap hit of, say, 12 million a season, that could get a little inconvenient. If we traded for a single 8-9 mil/year player we could save a few million a year and still afford to hit the free agency market and try to re-sign our upcoming free agents without quite the strain on the wallet.

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Old
11-06-2011, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadHatTrick View Post
I don't know how good you think Suter is (yes we know he's good), or anything at all about Luke Schenn, but from your comments, I very much doubt the latter.

When Luke Schenn was drafted, Bob Mackenzie said he was the best Defensive Defenceman prospect he'd seen in ten years. There's a reason Schenn was taken 5th overall, two spots higher than Suter. Does that mean Luke is going to be the same type of player as Suter? No. (the Adam Foote comparison's probably the best). Does that mean he'll be as good as Suter? No again.

Now at only 21 yearsold, does he have the potential, given his pedigree to be as good or better than Suter? Absolutely. So does any prospect.
Patrick Stefan is gonna be a hall of famer too. I like Schenn, but wasn't he a scratch in favor of cody franson?


I do not think it is really fair to compare where they were drafted as it was two seperate drafts, and the draft suter came out in may have been the strongest draft (at least the first round) ever.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 11-06-2011 at 12:59 PM. Reason: merged posts
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Old
11-06-2011, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadHatTrick View Post
I don't know how good you think Suter is (yes we know he's good), or anything at all about Luke Schenn, but from your comments, I very much doubt the latter.

When Luke Schenn was drafted, Bob Mackenzie said he was the best Defensive Defenceman prospect he'd seen in ten years. There's a reason Schenn was taken 5th overall, two spots higher than Suter. Does that mean Luke is going to be the same type of player as Suter? No. (the Adam Foote comparison's probably the best). Does that mean he'll be as good as Suter? No again.

Now at only 21 yearsold, does he have the potential, given his pedigree to be as good or better than Suter? Absolutely. So does any prospect.
Suter was 4th in Norris voting and is a top 5 defensemen in his own right at 26. He doesn't need a potential mantle to hang his hat on. He is elite, young, and way better than Luke Schenn.

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11-06-2011, 03:22 PM
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If they're a leaf, they're a hall of famer.

until they hit the ice.

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Old
11-06-2011, 04:11 PM
  #23
ThirdManIn
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Suter was 4th in Norris voting and is a top 5 defensemen in his own right at 26. He doesn't need a potential mantle to hang his hat on. He is elite, young, and way better than Luke Schenn.
I agree that Suter is better than Schenn, regardless of potential, but Suter was actually 15th in Norris voting in 2011 (I'm assuming you meant 4th for the most recent Norris) with 2 fifth place votes. There was a bit of misinformation spread around the boards and Twitter back in June/July.

OT Fun Facts: Pekka Rinne was not only 2nd in Vezina voting (a mere 20 points behind Thomas after an historic season), but was also fourth in Hart voting (Weber was 25th in Hart voting). Trotz was third in Jack Adams voting. Martin Erat, Jerred Smithson, and David Legwand were T-40, T-40, and 50, respectively, for Selke (each with 3 points. Erat and Smithson had 1 fourth place vote each, and Legwand had 3 fifth place votes.) Mike Fisher was 53rd in Selke voting.

source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/58516192/2...Awards-Summary

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11-06-2011, 06:19 PM
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Wow. I could have swore I read suter was 4th. This isn't the first time I have made that mistake. Thanks for the correction!

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11-06-2011, 07:45 PM
  #25
TheMadHatTrick
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Suter was 4th in Norris voting and is a top 5 defensemen in his own right at 26. He doesn't need a potential mantle to hang his hat on. He is elite, young, and way better than Luke Schenn.
Well if you could trade Ryan Suter for Ryan Suter (except younger, signed to a team friendly deal for 5 years) I'm sure you would. But that was never the point was it. No one is going to trade you Ryan Suter for "Ryan Suter" in a manner of speaking. LOL

You'd be trading for potential obviously.

Also, Ryan Suter never finished 4th in Norris Trophy voting. Show me the link from a reputable source that says otherwise, cause I haven't seen this even suggested anywhere other than this board.

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