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Old
11-06-2011, 08:56 PM
  #1
sobrien
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CBJ-PHI proposals

I posted this over on the CBJ board, I watched a lot of them the passed few years while at school, and even went to the Flyers game last year at Nationwide Arena. Figure I'd post it here for our fans to comment on as well, perhaps I'm willing to give up far too much.

Quote:
I disagree with a lot of the people ("experts") who've said that the entire team is just not skilled enough. That's crap. The offense has the potential to be fantastic. Defensively...yeah pretty bad, and Mason is difficult to watch.

I've also seen a lot of "no one is untouchable" comments, and I'm not sure if everyone agrees with that, but I may push my luck with that

I'd like to base the deal around Bobrovsky and Carle/Coburn, and move spare parts around where needed (prospects, picks, lower tier players). So something like:

Bob
Carle
2nd

for

Umberger
4th

orrr press it a little and go with:

Bob
Schenn/two 1sts/JvR
Carle
mid-level prospect(s)

for

Nash
mid/late round pick(s)
mid-level prospect(s)

Flame away, lock it up, counter, or discuss...whatever you'd like. Just some thoughts that have been stewing in my brain since last night.


Last edited by sobrien: 11-06-2011 at 09:08 PM.
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Old
11-06-2011, 08:57 PM
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Hope the OP has got plenty of lube ready.

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Old
11-06-2011, 09:01 PM
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Whaaaaat Umby is worth HOW much? I don't think I'd do Bob for Umby straight up.

And there's no way I want Nash for that much either.

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11-06-2011, 09:03 PM
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I like Nash but he is getting older and I personally like the youth movement we have depth does that mean it needs to be consolidated?

Umberger doesn't fix our Defense. He's a good peice but where does he fit in the lineup when everyone is healthy?

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11-06-2011, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I posted this over on the CBJ board, I watched a lot of them the passed few years while at school, and even went to the Flyers game last year at Nationwide Arena. Figure I'd post it here for our fans to comment on as well, perhaps I'm willing to give up far too much.
My first thought is "Why?!?"

Where does Umberger fit on this team?

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr (not taking one of their spots)

JVR-Briere-Simmonds (nope, not here either)

Voracek-Couturier-Read (Nothing here either)

And then we have the problem of what to do w/ Schenn when he gets back...

Are we seriously giving Carle + Bob up for someone to play on our 4th line?!? We're leading the NHL in goals... we don't need more offense, we need more defense. The defense has been terrible.

There are certain deals that just don't make much sense @ all... this is probably one of them.

EDIT: As far as Nash goes... no, just no. We aren't taking a $7.8M cap hit on as a luxury. We don't have weakness on offense right now, it's the defense we need help w/. Nash does nothing there.

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11-06-2011, 09:06 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I like Nash but he is getting older and I personally like the youth movement we have depth does that mean it needs to be consolidated?

Umberger doesn't fix our Defense. He's a good peice but where does he fit in the lineup when everyone is healthy?
Nobody on that team will fix our defense. Maybe if we snag a couple prospects like Goboulef, Savard or Moore we might salvage something. But they're in a worse spot than we are defensively.

Quote:
My first thought is "Why?!?"

Where does Umberger fit on this team?

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr (not taking one of their spots)

JVR-Briere-Simmonds (nope, not here either)

Voracek-Couturier-Read (Nothing here either)

And then we have the problem of what to do w/ Schenn when he gets back...

Are we seriously giving Carle + Bob up for someone to play on our 4th line?!? We're leading the NHL in goals... we don't need more offense, we need more defense. The defense has been terrible.

There are certain deals that just don't make much sense @ all... this is probably one of them.

EDIT: As far as Nash goes... no, just no. We aren't taking a $7.8M cap hit on as a luxury. We don't have weakness on offense right now, it's the defense we need help w/. Nash does nothing there.
I'd put Umberger over Simmonds on our 2nd line and Read on our 3rd pretty quickly. I meant to have these as pretty open ended so they can be adjusted (like the 2nd one) work in Goboulef instead of a 4th to go with Umberger, does that make it better?

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11-06-2011, 09:07 PM
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Old
11-06-2011, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Nobody on that team will fix our defense. Maybe if we snag a couple prospects like Goboulef, Savard or Moore we might salvage something. But they're in a worse spot than we are defensively.
Thats what I mean, if we are moving peices like that we need to adress defense, not upgrade our already solid forwards

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11-06-2011, 09:13 PM
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I don't think either trade makes sense for us.

Nash is basically a more expensive Jeff Carter at this point. I wan't no part of his contract.

The Flyers also don't need any more forwards and they don't need to be trading away defense at this point.

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11-06-2011, 09:18 PM
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Nash doesnt fit this team... I want no part of him, our forward core is solid and probably should not be touched.

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11-06-2011, 09:19 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I'd put Umberger over Simmonds on our 2nd line and Read on our 3rd pretty quickly. I meant to have these as pretty open ended so they can be adjusted (like the 2nd one) work in Goboulef instead of a 4th to go with Umberger, does that make it better?
Not really... You're giving away our weakness (defense) to trade for our strength (forwards). It makes no sense.

Trading Carle and getting no defenseman back in return means Lilja is playing regular minutes every night. That makes me puke.

And then you're using one of our top-9 forwards like a scrub on the 4th line. It's not an efficient use of resources. Ideally, you want 9 top-9 forwards. Your trade would leave us w/ 11 players for 9 spots (Jagr, G, Harts, Briere, JVR, Voracek, Read, Cooter, Simmonds, Schenn, Umberger) and would leave us shorthanded on D w/ our final pairing being Gustafsson-Lilja.

It makes zero sense. If Umberger is even an upgrade over Simmonds or Read, it's a very slight one. While Lilja is a tremendous downgrade over Carle. And meanwhile, you're trading away Bob too. It's honestly really, really bad.

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11-06-2011, 09:19 PM
  #12
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Don't want to even bother getting into the second one but the first one would force recall waivers on Leighton... teams willing to take him at half Salary/Cap would totally screw the Flyers and leave them with the alternate problem... obtaining a capable back-up goalie that would be pressed at being the number one if Bryz would get (Heaven forbid) injured for an extended period.

Also, Carle leaving would mean the Flyers need a top four D-man -- top five if you factor in Mesz -- or hope for an accelerated maturation of Gus and a serious drop in D depth... or they could risk recall of Walker and pray he suddenly could fill the bill this time around after failing earlier this season.

... And all this to gain a player in a position we really have no urgent need for... forward... and a mid round selection?


Needless to say, I'll pass without a second's consideration.


Last edited by Sawdalite: 11-06-2011 at 09:46 PM.
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11-06-2011, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Not really... You're giving away our weakness (defense) to trade for our strength (forwards). It makes no sense.

Trading Carle and getting no defenseman back in return means Lilja is playing regular minutes every night. That makes me puke.

And then you're using one of our top-9 forwards like a scrub on the 4th line. It's not an efficient use of resources. Ideally, you want 9 top-9 forwards. Your trade would leave us w/ 11 players for 9 spots (Jagr, G, Harts, Briere, JVR, Voracek, Read, Cooter, Simmonds, Schenn, Umberger) and would leave us shorthanded on D w/ our final pairing being Gustafsson-Lilja.

It makes zero sense. If Umberger is even an upgrade over Simmonds or Read, it's a very slight one. While Lilja is a tremendous downgrade over Carle. And meanwhile, you're trading away Bob too. It's honestly really, really bad.
Dont feel like looking it up but I would imagine umberger makes quite a bit more money than simmonds . For what simmonds gives you and what umberger gives you I would rather have simmonds at this point (younger, still hasnt peaked, more versatile)

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11-06-2011, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Not really... You're giving away our weakness (defense) to trade for our strength (forwards). It makes no sense.

Trading Carle and getting no defenseman back in return means Lilja is playing regular minutes every night. That makes me puke.

And then you're using one of our top-9 forwards like a scrub on the 4th line. It's not an efficient use of resources. Ideally, you want 9 top-9 forwards. Your trade would leave us w/ 11 players for 9 spots (Jagr, G, Harts, Briere, JVR, Voracek, Read, Cooter, Simmonds, Schenn, Umberger) and would leave us shorthanded on D w/ our final pairing being Gustafsson-Lilja.

It makes zero sense. If Umberger is even an upgrade over Simmonds or Read, it's a very slight one. While Lilja is a tremendous downgrade over Carle. And meanwhile, you're trading away Bob too. It's honestly really, really bad.
I know it puts us in a tough spot at forward, but we'd be able to roll 4 excellent lines. Assuming everyone's healthy:

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JvR-Briere-Umberger
Voracek-Schenn-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read

Pronger-Coburn
Timonen-Gustafsson
Meszaros-Lilja

Bryz
Leights

That's still an excellent lineup. We move our seemingly disgruntled backup goalie, our turnover prone offensive-defenseman, and a pick for a good two-way forward who knows how to play for this team, and a good prospect (Goboulef, Savard, Moore). To call it really really bad is an overreaction.

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11-06-2011, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
Dont feel like looking it up but I would imagine umberger makes quite a bit more money than simmonds . For what simmonds gives you and what umberger gives you I would rather have simmonds at this point (younger, still hasnt peaked, more versatile)
I wouldnt go that far Umberger can still play any position on the ice, and will give you PK as well as PP time he is definitely a better player and worth more but everything previous to that is still valid and I agree

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11-06-2011, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I know it puts us in a tough spot at forward, but we'd be able to roll 4 excellent lines. Assuming everyone's healthy:

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JvR-Briere-Umberger
Voracek-Schenn-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read

Pronger-Coburn
Timonen-Gustafsson
Meszaros-Lilja

Bryz
Leights

That's still an excellent lineup. We move our seemingly disgruntled backup goalie, our turnover prone offensive-defenseman, and a pick for a good two-way forward who knows how to play for this team, and a good prospect (Goboulef, Savard, Moore). To call it really really bad is an overreaction.
The Flyers are first in the league with a 4.00 goals per game average. Why on earth do they need Umberger and his large contract? We already have too many forwards fighting for ice time.

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11-06-2011, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Don't want to even bother getting into the second one but the firs one would force recall waivers on Leighton... teams willing to take him at half Salary/Cap would totally screw the Flyers and leave them with the alternate problem... obtaining or a capable back-up goalie that would be pressed at being the number one if Bryz would get (Heaven forbid) injured for an extended period.

Also, Carle leaving would mean the Flyers need a top four D-man -- top five if you factor in Mesz -- or hope for an accelerated maturation of Gus and a serious drop in D depth... or they could risk recall of Walker and pray he suddenly could fill the bill this time around after failing earlier this season.

... And all this to gain a player in a position we really have no urgent need for... forward... and a mid round selection?


Needless to say, I'll pass without a second's consideration.
All great points, aside from the mid-round selection. I addressed that in an earlier post.

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Old
11-06-2011, 09:36 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I know it puts us in a tough spot at forward, but we'd be able to roll 4 excellent lines. Assuming everyone's healthy:

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JvR-Briere-Umberger
Voracek-Schenn-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read

Pronger-Coburn
Timonen-Gustafsson
Meszaros-Lilja

Bryz
Leights

That's still an excellent lineup. We move our seemingly disgruntled backup goalie, our turnover prone offensive-defenseman, and a pick for a good two-way forward who knows how to play for this team, and a good prospect (Goboulef, Savard, Moore). To call it really really bad is an overreaction.
No, it's honestly not an overreaction... it's really really bad.

There's no huge advantage in rolling 4 good lines. I want my 4th line to have lower minutes so that my 1st line, which has been absolutely dominating teams, gets more shifts. There's a reason why nobody's 4th line makes $10M... it's not because you're smarter than everyone else, it's because there's only so many minutes to go around and paying $10M for guys who will see the ice 10 min / game is ludicrous.

Meanwhile, you've managed to make our 3rd pairing (which sees the ice a lot more than our 4th line does) absolutely abominable. Lilja is terrible. Have you been watching at all this year? He is so bad it's not even funny and you want him to be seeing consistent ice time for us?

I can't say anymore than I already have... it's a significant downgrade for our team and serves no purpose. You're trading a necessity for us (a top-4 defenseman), a position that actually needs to be upgraded, not downgraded, and you're doing it all so we can have the luxury of rolling 4 lines?!?

I don't think you'll find a single flyers fan who says yes to this. It is terrible. Flat out terrible.

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11-06-2011, 09:43 PM
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what's with fans and wanting to re-acquire ex-flyers?

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11-06-2011, 09:43 PM
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Next season Umby will be making $4.6M ($3.75 his season) while Simmonds makes $1.75M both this and next season.

Nash is at $7.8M


Do we want to go into how these screw up he Flyers Cap worse than it already is?

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11-06-2011, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
No, it's honestly not an overreaction... it's really really bad.

There's no huge advantage in rolling 4 good lines. I want my 4th line to have lower minutes so that my 1st line, which has been absolutely dominating teams, gets more shifts. There's a reason why nobody's 4th line makes $10M... it's not because you're smarter than everyone else, it's because there's only so many minutes to go around and paying $10M for guys who will see the ice 10 min / game is ludicrous.

Meanwhile, you've managed to make our 3rd pairing (which sees the ice a lot more than our 4th line does) absolutely abominable. Lilja is terrible. Have you been watching at all this year? He is so bad it's not even funny and you want him to be seeing consistent ice time for us?

I can't say anymore than I already have... it's a significant downgrade for our team and serves no purpose. You're trading a necessity for us (a top-4 defenseman), a position that actually needs to be upgraded, not downgraded, and you're doing it all so we can have the luxury of rolling 4 lines?!?

I don't think you'll find a single flyers fan who says yes to this. It is terrible. Flat out terrible.
How does that make our 3rd pairing abominable?! It's been our 3rd pairing all season! Lilja is serviceable, not ideal, and far from terrible. You continue to overreact. He's already seeing consistent ice time. He see 13:30 a game on average. He's a plus player so far, and staying out of the box (in comparison to his alternative). You just seem to overreact more and more as you type, it's quite hilarious.

Either way, I've seen the light. We clearly aren't good trade partners with them. Thanks for your comments

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11-06-2011, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
what's with fans and wanting to re-acquire ex-flyers?
Umby was a good young soldier who was moved almost solely based on the new Cap Era forcing it due to other young talented players such as Richards and Carter being firmly in their long term plans -- yeah, huh... really -- I would say that most Flyers fans have fond memories of him and wouldn't mind seeing him one day returning.

That said, IMO, his ship has sailed and he is no longer as needed as when he was moved... I'd rather see him come back later on in his career when he is a more affordable journeyman who can help the team win a Cup without braking the bank in the process... and the Flyers won't have to move good young players to obtain him.

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11-06-2011, 09:58 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
How does that make our 3rd pairing abominable?! It's been our 3rd pairing all season! Lilja is serviceable, not ideal, and far from terrible. You continue to overreact. He's already seeing consistent ice time. He see 13:30 a game on average. He's a plus player so far, and staying out of the box (in comparison to his alternative). You just seem to overreact more and more as you type, it's quite hilarious.

Either way, I've seen the light. We clearly aren't good trade partners with them. Thanks for your comments
When Pronger returns my guess is his ice-time will drop dramatically... and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Gus pushes him to 7th D-man. I have not been impressed with him except in a limited role.

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11-06-2011, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
How does that make our 3rd pairing abominable?! It's been our 3rd pairing all season! Lilja is serviceable, not ideal, and far from terrible. You continue to overreact. He's already seeing consistent ice time. He see 13:30 a game on average. He's a plus player so far, and staying out of the box (in comparison to his alternative). You just seem to overreact more and more as you type, it's quite hilarious.

Either way, I've seen the light. We clearly aren't good trade partners with them. Thanks for your comments
Yes, Lilja is currently seeing a good deal of ice time, but that is because Pronger is out. With our current defense, when Pronger returns, our defensive pairings would be:

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Gustafsson
Lilja as the 7th and a healthy scratch every night

If we went w/ your trade, they'd be:
Pronger-Meszaros
Timonen-Coburn
Gustafsson-Lilja
no 7th defenseman

Not only does your trade leave us w/ Lilja starting every night, it leaves us incredibly thin in the case of injury. If one of our guys goes down, do we recall Matt Walker? If we do, one of our rivals could claim him on re-entry waivers and put us in a serious bind.

I apologize for overreacting, but I just didn't see what was so fascinating about Umberger. He's not a world-beater by any stretch of the word, he has a pretty hefty cap hit, and we are already leading the NHL in goals. The forwards have been fine... we're good there.

Again, I apologize for overreacting / borderline flaming. It was inappropriate of me. I should have tried to explain more calmly.

Honestly though, I don't think us and CBJ are good trade partners @ all.

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11-06-2011, 10:44 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Yes, Lilja is currently seeing a good deal of ice time, but that is because Pronger is out. With our current defense, when Pronger returns, our defensive pairings would be:

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Gustafsson
Lilja as the 7th and a healthy scratch every night

If we went w/ your trade, they'd be:
Pronger-Meszaros
Timonen-Coburn
Gustafsson-Lilja
no 7th defenseman

Not only does your trade leave us w/ Lilja starting every night, it leaves us incredibly thin in the case of injury. If one of our guys goes down, do we recall Matt Walker? If we do, one of our rivals could claim him on re-entry waivers and put us in a serious bind.

I apologize for overreacting, but I just didn't see what was so fascinating about Umberger. He's not a world-beater by any stretch of the word, he has a pretty hefty cap hit, and we are already leading the NHL in goals. The forwards have been fine... we're good there.

Again, I apologize for overreacting / borderline flaming. It was inappropriate of me. I should have tried to explain more calmly.

Honestly though, I don't think us and CBJ are good trade partners @ all.
I agree, and it's cool, I expected for some interesting commentary I just figured of all their forwards aside from Johanson, Umberger made the most sense. We should be pursuing trade options with teams like StL, Van, and Nsh...teams with fairly deep defensive groups/defensive prospects.

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