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Old
11-06-2011, 10:13 PM
  #26
WeekendAtBernies
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush28 View Post
More often then not players want to play in philly for all of the obvious reasons but doesnt mean it is a sure thing, I mean hamuis should be a prime example.
Like I said... it should be pretty obvious we'd want a window to negotiate before completing the deal.

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Old
11-06-2011, 10:15 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Weber wouldn't re-sign. It's Philadelphia we're talking about here... free agents want to be here. The only reason Weber won't sign in Nashville (yet) is b/c he wants the team to prove to him they're willing to spend to produce a winning team.

What more could he want than playing in Philly next to Pronger? And obviously the deal would be contingent upon a window to negotiate w/ Weber.

Btw, Weber is a RFA @ the end of the season. Not a UFA. Meaning we keep his rights no matter what. There's literally zero risk of Weber leaving.
Remember Hamhuis? We traded a former 1st round pick for him and got squat out of it. Sure yes he's an RFA, and yes this does seem like an ideal situation. But players have their own perogatives, you can't say there's no risk. Maybe he decides he doesn't want to play 2nd fiddle to a guy like Pronger. Maybe he thinks he has better oppurtunities elsewhere. He's no longer eligible for arbitration because he went to arbitration this year.

I'm not going to act like I know what happens if a non elgible player holds out but I have a feeling its not good for the team who owns his rights. You are not trading for Weber signed you are trading for the rest of this season and the rights to negotiate with him before Free Agency thats it.

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Old
11-06-2011, 10:15 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Weber wouldn't re-sign. It's Philadelphia we're talking about here... free agents want to be here. The only reason Weber won't sign in Nashville (yet) is b/c he wants the team to prove to him they're willing to spend to produce a winning team.

What more could he want than playing in Philly next to Pronger? And obviously the deal would be contingent upon a window to negotiate w/ Weber.

Btw, Weber is a RFA @ the end of the season. Not a UFA. Meaning we keep his rights no matter what. There's literally zero risk of Weber leaving.
Ask Dan Hamhuis why he didn't sign here. In fact, Weber might. I'm sure they stay in contact.

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Old
11-06-2011, 10:17 PM
  #29
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This is like a fantasy hockey deal. Way too many moving pieces. The Flyers don't need to blow their team up already for a deal that included a forward who may not even want to play for the team.

Weber is the only piece that makes sense, but they'd have to move too much salary this season to fit him in. I'd rather go for Suter and then work out the cap in the summer.

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11-06-2011, 10:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
This is like a fantasy hockey deal. Way too many moving pieces. The Flyers don't need to blow their team up already for a deal that included a forward who may not even want to play for the team.

Weber is the only piece that makes sense, but they'd have to move too much salary this season to fit him in. I'd rather go for Suter and then work out the cap in the summer.
Not opposed to that either (Suter), but I honestly don't think this defense can win a cup. Their play in their own zone has been terrible this year. They need something.

As to your comments about it being like a fantasy deal, I'd dispute that... there are actually very few moving pieces. Schenn isn't yet a regular part of this lineup... he's played in all of 5 games and wasn't that great in them (not saying he doesn't have a bright future, just saying he wasn't some huge contributor for us that will be immediately missed). Shelley is a goon that plays minimally. He wouldn't be missed.

In terms of players teams would actually miss this year, it's a 2 for 1 deal for the Flyers... they'd miss Voracek's impact and they'd miss Carle's impact, but they'd get back Weber's impact.

----------------------------------

The reason I included Radulov in the deal is to balance it for the Flyers. The Predators need an immediate impact forward in any deal for Weber, they also need a top-4 defenseman to lessen the blow of losing him, and they need a pretty high-ceiling prospect. For some teams, perhaps they could trade a budding young star and fulfill the 1st and the 3rd categories... the Flyers can't. Schenn is too young to be counted on for an immediate impact and Voracek's ceiling isn't high enough to be the high-ceiling guy.

And at the same time, trading Voracek + Carle + Schenn is too much for Weber. Since NSH doesn't really have any other players of value to us, I included Radulov as it gives us the chance to make out well on the trade. Even if Radulov doesn't come back, you're left w/ a pretty formidable team.

Top 3 lines of Harts-G-Jagr, JVR-Briere-Simmonds, Wellwood-Couturier-Read is still a really, really deep top-9.

And a top-4 defensively of Pronger-Weber and Timonen-Coburn would be the best in the league.

And in the playoffs, games are won and lost w/ your top-4 defensemen and your top-9 forwards (and obviously your goalie... but we already addressed that problem).

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Old
11-06-2011, 10:35 PM
  #31
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I'm not opposed to moving peices for Weber, I think either Weber or Suter or both are in O&B by next season. But, Schenn Voracek and Carle is too much to move for Weber alone. You said they need a forward to make an impact immediately, a forward prospect with a high ceiling and a top 4 D. I'm ok moving those peices if something more significant is coming back, Ellis and a conditional pick based on if he resigns.

Schenn is both a high end prospect and a player that is ready to emerge on the scene on NSH hes immediatly in their top 6 if not their top line C. He gets regular PP and PK time as well as top line minutes all the chance in the world to succeed which he doesn't get here or in LA. Voracek sees an increase in minutes and adds another boost to their offense while also getting a proven top 4 PMD.

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Old
11-06-2011, 10:39 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Not opposed to that either (Suter), but I honestly don't think this defense can win a cup. Their play in their own zone has been terrible this year. They need something.

As to your comments about it being like a fantasy deal, I'd dispute that... there are actually very few moving pieces. Schenn isn't yet a regular part of this lineup... he's played in all of 5 games and wasn't that great in them (not saying he doesn't have a bright future, just saying he wasn't some huge contributor for us that will be immediately missed). Shelley is a goon that plays minimally. He wouldn't be missed.

In terms of players teams would actually miss this year, it's a 2 for 1 deal for the Flyers... they'd miss Voracek's impact and they'd miss Carle's impact, but they'd get back Weber's impact.

----------------------------------

The reason I included Radulov in the deal is to balance it for the Flyers. The Predators need an immediate impact forward in any deal for Weber, they also need a top-4 defenseman to lessen the blow of losing him, and they need a pretty high-ceiling prospect. For some teams, perhaps they could trade a budding young star and fulfill the 1st and the 3rd categories... the Flyers can't. Schenn is too young to be counted on for an immediate impact and Voracek's ceiling isn't high enough to be the high-ceiling guy.

And at the same time, trading Voracek + Carle + Schenn is too much for Weber. Since NSH doesn't really have any other players of value to us, I included Radulov as it gives us the chance to make out well on the trade. Even if Radulov doesn't come back, you're left w/ a pretty formidable team.

Top 3 lines of Harts-G-Jagr, JVR-Briere-Simmonds, Wellwood-Couturier-Read is still a really, really deep top-9.

And a top-4 defensively of Pronger-Weber and Timonen-Coburn would be the best in the league.

And in the playoffs, games are won and lost w/ your top-4 defensemen and your top-9 forwards (and obviously your goalie... but we already addressed that problem).
Schenn may be injured, but he's a top 9 forward on this team. It's a fantasy deal when you're talking about trading 4 roster players, even if one is Shelley, when this team is currently 3 points out of 1st in the East with a game in hand. No GM is going to mess with a successful team that much at this point, especially coming off an offseason where they turned over much of the roster. I also don't think Holmgren would trade the two centerpieces of the Richards and Carter deals so soon.

Yes, the defense is a concern but we're 14 games into the season. It's far too early to make judgment calls like that especially considering they've been missing their #1 defender due to injury. The D shouldn't remain this bad if healthy. Wake me up if a healthy Flyers defense is still this bad in January.

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11-06-2011, 10:42 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I'm not opposed to moving peices for Weber, I think either Weber or Suter or both are in O&B by next season. But, Schenn Voracek and Carle is too much to move for Weber alone. You said they need a forward to make an impact immediately, a forward prospect with a high ceiling and a top 4 D. I'm ok moving those peices if something more significant is coming back, Ellis and a conditional pick based on if he resigns.

Schenn is both a high end prospect and a player that is ready to emerge on the scene on NSH hes immediatly in their top 6 if not their top line C. He gets regular PP and PK time as well as top line minutes all the chance in the world to succeed which he doesn't get here or in LA. Voracek sees an increase in minutes and adds another boost to their offense while also getting a proven top 4 PMD.
I'd love if Nashville would agree to your proposed deal... I just don't know if they'd agree to adding Ellis in there. Maybe they would.

I do think the vast majority of this board kind of undervalues Weber though... he's probably the best / 2nd best defenseman in the game right now if you consider age and future performance.

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Old
11-06-2011, 10:47 PM
  #34
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Radulov coming back to NA to make $900k?

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11-06-2011, 10:48 PM
  #35
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This trade sucks. You're gutting half the team to get Weber. Nashville has Weber and half our depth, look where they are.

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11-06-2011, 10:50 PM
  #36
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I don't know, if they wanted a deal revolving around Schenn for Weber I think I would do it. I mean Weber is one of the Premier d-men in this league. Schenn is supposed to be a great player but weber already is a top player. Schenn, Carle/Coburn and a 1st probably would be what takes to get him. Weber is still a RFA so it would cost a lot to get him probably. Pronger cost us a ton to get too but i don't see anyone complaining about that trade. And I know they are different but if it came down to something like the deal I said, I would do it in a heartbeat I think

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11-06-2011, 11:03 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
I'd love if Nashville would agree to your proposed deal... I just don't know if they'd agree to adding Ellis in there. Maybe they would.

I do think the vast majority of this board kind of undervalues Weber though... he's probably the best / 2nd best defenseman in the game right now if you consider age and future performance.
I agree with your 2nd statement he is probably the 2nd best or best defensemen in the game. He's also a Free Agent at the end of the year and that is where you are overvaluing him. He is not obligated to sign with any team he doesn't want to after the end of the year.

Ask yourself if you would give up Voracek, Schenn, and Carle for Radulov's rights, because thats what your left with if Weber walks after the year.

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Old
11-06-2011, 11:05 PM
  #38
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Ask Dan Hamhuis why he didn't sign here. In fact, Weber might. I'm sure they stay in contact.
bc he wanted to play in his hometown?

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11-06-2011, 11:08 PM
  #39
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bc he wanted to play in his hometown?
He had an agenda once he hit free agency he had 1 team targetted on his mind. Whose to say other players don't think the same way, is the point.

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11-06-2011, 11:16 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I agree with your 2nd statement he is probably the 2nd best or best defensemen in the game. He's also a Free Agent at the end of the year and that is where you are overvaluing him. He is not obligated to sign with any team he doesn't want to after the end of the year.

Ask yourself if you would give up Voracek, Schenn, and Carle for Radulov's rights, because thats what your left with if Weber walks after the year.
Weber is only a restricted free agent so he can't just walk. Suter is the UFA.

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11-06-2011, 11:26 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Weber is only a restricted free agent so he can't just walk. Suter is the UFA.
stop letting the facts get in the way of this lunacy.

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11-06-2011, 11:26 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Weber is only a restricted free agent so he can't just walk. Suter is the UFA.
No but if he holds out do you think we get anything remotely close to what we give up? Hes not able to be taken to arbitration as he has already been taken to team elected arbitration once in his career.

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Old
11-06-2011, 11:37 PM
  #43
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No but if he holds out do you think we get anything remotely close to what we give up? Hes not able to be taken to arbitration as he has already been taken to team elected arbitration once in his career.
See, but you're thinking worst case scenario.

Schenn could blame the Flyers trainers for his leg injury, say he doesn't like the way he was used in Philly during his first 5 games, pull an Eric Lindros for no reason, refuse to play for the Flyers and go home and play XBox all day in his boxers. What are the odds of that happening? Probably somewhere around your odds of winning powerball, but it could happen and we wouldn't get anything close to what we gave up for him in that scenario.

The Weber hold out scenario is just as unlikely as the one I've proposed above. Mainly because there's no reason for him to hold out. We would offer him top dollar, we would be a winning team that perennially makes the playoffs and contends, and above all else, he would need to holdout for a full year (not a week like Hamhuis did) to be a full free agent.

You keep comparing this to the Hamhuis situation, but it's totally different. Hamhuis was a UFA who had no ties to Philly and we acquired his rights. It was dumb. You don't ever trade for a player's rights a week before FA starts b/c there's no incentive for that player to sign unless you are his #1 destination or you're willing to massively overpay him. It's like me asking you "would you rather sell me that stock you own for $10 today, or would you rather wait a week and get a bunch of offers from 10 other people and oh btw, my $10 offer will still be good then too. Nobody in their right mind takes the $10 upfront.

It's the same w/ Hamhuis. He waited, received a lucrative offer from his hometown team, it was a nobrainer. W/ Weber, it's different. He would need to wait a full year. Nobody in their right mind that's being offered a long term deal @ $7+M per season by a perennial contender would hold out. It just wouldn't happen.

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11-06-2011, 11:57 PM
  #44
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11-07-2011, 12:28 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
This trade sucks. You're gutting half the team to get Weber. Nashville has Weber and half our depth, look where they are.
Arguably better than us?



Of course they also have Rinne, who is a god damn beast.

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11-07-2011, 12:47 AM
  #46
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Arguably better than us?



Of course they also have Rinne, who is a god damn beast.
Over the last couple seasons when they've had Shea Weber? Hardly. Come on.

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11-07-2011, 12:51 AM
  #47
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This trade sucks. You're gutting half the team to get Weber. Nashville has Weber and half our depth, look where they are.
Agreed.
Carle (a UFA who is unlikely to be brought back), Schenn (a guy who isn't even playing for us right now and has contributed 0 points and was -5 in 5 games), and Voracek (who has 8 pts in 14 games) is totally "gutting half the team".

What ever would this team do w/ lines of:
Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr,
JVR-Briere-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read
Nodl-Holmstrom-Wellwood
Rinaldo

And how would we get by w/ defensive pairings of:
Pronger-Weber
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Gustafsson

We would be terrible. Just like Nashville. There's absolutely no depth there. It's not like we have 5 or 6 players there that are likely to put up 60+ points... we would be just as bad as Nashville... a team that's leading scorer had 50 points last year.

Very good comparison there.

Edit: Just so nobody thinks I'm criticizing Schenn... I'M NOT CRITICIZING SCHENN. I'm simply saying this team is leading the league in goals w/o him right now. While he's obviously going to be a great player, he is a piece that we could trade and it wouldn't affect the team all that much this year. When I think of the word "gutting", it means you're losing significant pieces that are currently carrying the team. Schenn certainly doesn't qualify under that definition.

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11-07-2011, 12:57 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Agreed.
Carle (a UFA who is unlikely to be brought back), Schenn (a guy who isn't even playing for us right now and has contributed 0 points and was -5 in 5 games), and Voracek (who has 8 pts in 14 games) is totally "gutting half the team".

What ever would this team do w/ lines of:
Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr,
JVR-Briere-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read
Nodl-Holmstrom-Wellwood
Rinaldo

And how would we get by w/ defensive pairings of:
Pronger-Weber
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-Gustafsson

We would be terrible. Just like Nashville. There's absolutely no depth there. It's not like we have 5 or 6 players there that are likely to put up 60+ points... we would be just as bad as Nashville... a team that's leading scorer had 50 points last year.

Very good comparison there.
No, no you're right. I have been dying to see a line with Nodl, Homstrom and Wellwood on it. If you're really depending on Couturier and Read to keep up their point production and have that 4th line then... I don't know. Maybe we just think differently because I wouldn't be comfortable with that at all. Shea Weber is a tremendous player and I applaud your effort to try and get him, but let's face it. This offense isn't at all a given to be a consistent high scoring affair every game.

Flame me all you want, I'm just giving my two cents.

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11-07-2011, 01:38 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
No, no you're right. I have been dying to see a line with Nodl, Homstrom and Wellwood on it. If you're really depending on Couturier and Read to keep up their point production and have that 4th line then... I don't know. Maybe we just think differently because I wouldn't be comfortable with that at all. Shea Weber is a tremendous player and I applaud your effort to try and get him, but let's face it. This offense isn't at all a given to be a consistent high scoring affair every game.

Flame me all you want, I'm just giving my two cents.
I'm not trying to flame you, was just having a little fun. Your language ie. the use of "gutting" was a bit strong so I had some fun using hyperbole.

Honestly, a 4th line of Nodl-Holmstrom-Wellwood (or Rinaldo if you'd rather have him over Wellwood) obviously isn't an offensive juggernaut, but they are all excellent defensive forwards who can play on the PK. Our current 4th line is Nodl-Talbot-Rinaldo (or you can replace Rinaldo w/ Shelley certain nights)... and the two wingers (Rinaldo/Shelley and Nodl) average 5 mins / game and 8 mins / game respectively of even strength TOI... so they aren't really used in many offensive situations.

The only difference from our current team to the team I envision after a Weber trade is that instead of Talbot splitting time between the 3rd & 4th line, I'd have him full-time on the 3rd line, since I think he has shown some excellent chemistry @ times this season w/ Couturier as has Read.

I'd be pretty comfortable w/ those 3rd & 4th lines. I also think we'd pick up some offense from our defense Weber vs. Carle. And our powerplay would certainly be more dangerous (the PP has been terrible lately... especially the defensemen) because Weber has an excellent shot and is great on the PP.

It's a sacrifice I'd be willing to make in order to get Shea Weber.

Additionally, Nashville is pretty stocked w/ cheap good defensive forwards, so since many people have said they think my deal offers Nashville a little too much value, I'm sure we could get one of their surplus defensive forwards back in return... ie. Jerred Smithson, who is a good defensive center and was 54.9% in faceoffs in 09-10 and 57.4% in faceoffs last year.

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JVR-Briere-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read
Nodl-Smithson-Wellwood/Rinaldo

would be a pretty solid forward lineup in my personal opinion.

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Old
11-07-2011, 01:54 AM
  #50
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To the original offer, that is WAY too much to be paying for Weber and Rad isn't coming back to NA. This would be like trading Richards AND Carter for Weber, a 1st and a 3rd line player. Sorry but not even Weber is worth that much. I could see one of Schenn or Voracek + 1st for Weber (doubt they have any interest in Carle) but that's about it.

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