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Return for Carter vs. Return for Richards

View Poll Results: Which return is better?
Sean Couturier + Jakub Voracek + Nick Cousins (early 3rd 2011) 62 66.67%
Brayden Schenn + Wayne Simmonds + late 2nd 2012 31 33.33%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-05-2011, 08:01 PM
  #51
Beef Invictus
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It's still too early.

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11-05-2011, 09:55 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's still too early.
It's not too early to have an opinion. There's really no soul-scorching penalty for choosing the "wrong" poll answer.

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11-05-2011, 09:56 PM
  #53
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Couturier is going to be such a steal.

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11-05-2011, 09:59 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
It's not too early to have an opinion. There's really no soul-scorching penalty for choosing the "wrong" poll answer.
It's still too early for me to choose, I mean. I can't quite figure out which return is better yet because I haven't seen Schenn really get to play.

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11-05-2011, 10:00 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's still too early.
It is but my honest opinion Couturier is such a steal.

He will have a better career than Schenn.

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11-05-2011, 10:08 PM
  #56
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Schenn is probably going to be a better pure scorer but couturier is going to be a better all around hockey player imo, he looks like a 80 point type with selke type defense written all over him.

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11-06-2011, 12:51 AM
  #57
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My exact thoughts when we got Simmonds back:


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Old
11-07-2011, 12:33 AM
  #58
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I think the flyers made out like bandits long term in both cases

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11-07-2011, 08:59 AM
  #59
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I think a Simmonds vs Voracek comparison is better than Cout versus Schenn. Reason? The latter two are so young it'll be years before u can conclude anything.

Simmonds and Voracek have been around longer, so with them what u see this year may very well be what u get long term.

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11-07-2011, 10:29 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's still too early.
Too early for what?

Carter(3pts), Richards(10pts), Leino(3pts), and Carcillo(3pts) = 5 goals; 19pts

Talbot and Couturier both have 5 goals apiece; 16pts.

If you look at piece for piece, across the board...i.e- Carter/Voracek and Couturier, and Richards/Schenn and Simmonds, plus add in Jagr-Leino tradeoff, and Rinaldo-Carcillo trade off I think it is obvious to see that this team is a vastly deeper team.

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11-07-2011, 10:37 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ROTCphan View Post
Too early for what?

Carter(3pts), Richards(10pts), Leino(3pts), and Carcillo(3pts) = 5 goals; 19pts

Talbot and Couturier both have 5 goals apiece; 16pts.

If you look at piece for piece, across the board...i.e- Carter/Voracek and Couturier, and Richards/Schenn and Simmonds, plus add in Jagr-Leino tradeoff, and Rinaldo-Carcillo trade off I think it is obvious to see that this team is a vastly deeper team.
I don't think it is obvious at all. I see a Flyers team that is largely driven by luck right now. They've had 3 blowouts against AHL defenses. They have many players that are performing well above their norms. This team has all of the signs of a team that will struggle in the second half like last season.

Couturier and Talbot will be great, but neither will keep up their current production for a full season.

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11-07-2011, 11:08 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROTCphan View Post
Too early for what?

Carter(3pts), Richards(10pts), Leino(3pts), and Carcillo(3pts) = 5 goals; 19pts

Talbot and Couturier both have 5 goals apiece; 16pts.

If you look at piece for piece, across the board...i.e- Carter/Voracek and Couturier, and Richards/Schenn and Simmonds, plus add in Jagr-Leino tradeoff, and Rinaldo-Carcillo trade off I think it is obvious to see that this team is a vastly deeper team.
I don't think you understand what's being discussed. We're comparing which return is better than the other, not if either return is paying off. I think it's too early to compare which return is better, since we have yet to see how Schenn will pan out.

As for the other points...no, this team isn't deeper...which is why the majority of our offense comes from 1 line, unlike last year. Carcillo is a MUCH better overall hockey player than Rinaldo. Richards for Schenn and Simmonds has yet to pay off. On top of that, this team is pretty damned bad defensively, largely because we got rid of basically every one of our defensively responsible forwards without really replacing any of them. The team relies on rookies to do a LOT, and that's generally a recipe for disaster since rookies get tired. As others have pointed out, this team could easily have a very ugly second half.

Also, I have no idea why you threw Talbot in with Couturier and mentioned Leino and Carcillo, since none of them were part of the Richards or Carter trades.

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11-07-2011, 11:25 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I don't think it is obvious at all. I see a Flyers team that is largely driven by luck right now. They've had 3 blowouts against AHL defenses. They have many players that are performing well above their norms. This team has all of the signs of a team that will struggle in the second half like last season.

Couturier and Talbot will be great, but neither will keep up their current production for a full season.
So if the Flyers are being driven by luck how do you respond to the previous groups lack of luck? It is like two sides of a deal, one has grown stronger, while the other has weakened. I have a feeling we will be talking about this group for several years, but the group who left will all see declines in their careers.

:Just a hunch, but I have been right about these things before.

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11-07-2011, 11:27 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't think you understand what's being discussed. We're comparing which return is better than the other, not if either return is paying off. I think it's too early to compare which return is better, since we have yet to see how Schenn will pan out.

As for the other points...no, this team isn't deeper...which is why the majority of our offense comes from 1 line, unlike last year. Carcillo is a MUCH better overall hockey player than Rinaldo. Richards for Schenn and Simmonds has yet to pay off. On top of that, this team is pretty damned bad defensively, largely because we got rid of basically every one of our defensively responsible forwards without really replacing any of them. The team relies on rookies to do a LOT, and that's generally a recipe for disaster since rookies get tired. As others have pointed out, this team could easily have a very ugly second half.

Also, I have no idea why you threw Talbot in with Couturier and mentioned Leino and Carcillo, since none of them were part of the Richards or Carter trades.
I understand this clearly:

Voracek-Couturier-Simmonds-Schenn >>> Carter-Richards in value.

My Talbot-Couturier reference is two guys who have limited roles on this team, but yet have early on established themselves as being more productive than the two major pieces of last years squad, thus why this team is better and deeper than last season. But, hey, I am new here, don't want to stir the pot too much in regards to the dearly departed.

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Old
11-07-2011, 11:40 AM
  #65
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And let's take a look at that depth....because I know so many were concerned about losing the goal production.....Giroux-9, Jagr-6, JvR-6, Hartnell-5, Talbot-5, Couturier-5, Briere-4, Voracek/Simmonds/Read-each have 3.

Goals for, #1 in the league with 56 goals(4.00/G)....37 at 5v5

GAA, 24th, 42 g/a, 10 goals against on the PP.

They are outscoring teams 2-1 in the first period(resulting is 6W's when scoring first).

PK is 14th at @84%, PP is at 19.1, both improvements.

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11-07-2011, 12:23 PM
  #66
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Like I said, you clearly don't understand the discussion.

Is the return for Carter better than the return for Richards, or vice versa? As for the depth, it'll be MUCH more noticeable when the season grinds on and the young guys are getting tired...or if Jagr or Giroux get injured, in which case it'll be immediately noticeable.

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11-07-2011, 12:30 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Like I said, you clearly don't understand the discussion.

Is the return for Carter better than the return for Richards, or vice versa? As for the depth, it'll be MUCH more noticeable when the season grinds on and the young guys are getting tired...or if Jagr or Giroux get injured, in which case it'll be immediately noticeable.
The return of both was equal, each addressed the needs for the team and each brough back equal parts.

You could say that both were responsible for clearing cap space for Bryzgalov, but the bottom line is the organization needed wingers who could fill need of some size on the boards, and bring other peices of their game to the team(Simmonds in his toughness, Voracek in his good two-way play), the fact that in return they got back a 2nd line center and a 3rd line center who are 20 and 18 respectively makes both deals a steal considering what had transpired last season.

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11-07-2011, 12:36 PM
  #68
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The return of both isn't equal, that's a ridiculous statement. This thread serves to allow people to work out which return is better...and bye, I guess.

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11-07-2011, 12:42 PM
  #69
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Cartsiephan is back... with an asterisk?


ZOMBIE! Shoot it. In the head.

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11-07-2011, 01:08 PM
  #70
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I'm not so sure the head is a vital part of Cartsiephan

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11-07-2011, 02:42 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't think you understand what's being discussed. We're comparing which return is better than the other, not if either return is paying off. I think it's too early to compare which return is better, since we have yet to see how Schenn will pan out.

As for the other points...no, this team isn't deeper...which is why the majority of our offense comes from 1 line, unlike last year. Carcillo is a MUCH better overall hockey player than Rinaldo. Richards for Schenn and Simmonds has yet to pay off. On top of that, this team is pretty damned bad defensively, largely because we got rid of basically every one of our defensively responsible forwards without really replacing any of them. The team relies on rookies to do a LOT, and that's generally a recipe for disaster since rookies get tired. As others have pointed out, this team could easily have a very ugly second half.

Also, I have no idea why you threw Talbot in with Couturier and mentioned Leino and Carcillo, since none of them were part of the Richards or Carter trades.
Because all of the summer moves are inter- dependent of eachother?

The point he was making is that the team has improved in every facet. We killed it this offseason, everyone knows it, and Homer is being lauded for his brilliance

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11-07-2011, 02:44 PM
  #72
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Because all of the summer moves are inter- dependent of eachother?

The point he was making is that the team has improved in every facet. We killed it this offseason, everyone knows it, and Homer is being lauded for his brilliance
You and I are watching VERY different teams.

edit: Actually, I'm pretty sure fans all around the league as well as several media people have criticized the contract that Homer gave to Bryz. So..so much for lauded for brilliance, huh?

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11-07-2011, 02:58 PM
  #73
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The Bryz deal is bad, even if Bryz the player isnt. A lot of people have trouble understanding that, but at least you seem to Beef Invictus.

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11-07-2011, 03:05 PM
  #74
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I think in the second half we'll get a somewhat clearer picture as the smoke clears. Right now at least with the Carter trade given Cartatarsus' Forsbergesque like foot drama and Couturier's very promising performances thus far...that trade is looking pretty good. Jake also may round into form before too long. Just needs to be more assertive with his shooting decisions..bear down etc.

The Richards trade doesn't seem so great and wasn't for it necessarily and that one took us a step back given his role on the team but given that he wasn't all that happy with the coach (may be warranted), media (valid but worked both ways with his criticism of Lavy in public via the media) , situation in the locker room (which he's on record as saying was "little groups") and no doubt wouldn't have been happy once they moved Carter...it was going to be a problem going forward hence the move. It's just hard to judge that one given Schenn's absence.

This year is a transition year anyway. As Snider said with the both of them he felt he wasn't seeing growth (again..his words and a matter of public record) and didn't like the lack of consistency year in and year out although we're still seeing some of it but it might be a byproduct of all the new faces. Again..I think in the second half we'll get a better idea of their growth as a team as well as if Lavy himself is a problem which I have my concerns about...always have.

In short, I think ultimately we may win both trades but given Columbus' cursed situation I think the Carter trade is going to be one that really put them over the top with idiotic management only b/c Couturier might really be the steal of the draft even if he runs into a bit of a wall at some point. You can just see though that the dude is a legit prospect. I like Meltzer's commentary on Couts today. Going to be fun watching this guy develop into a possible Selke type player...

Quote:
Sean Couturier may hit the dreaded "rookie wall" at some point in the middle of the season, but he has already shown all of the elements of why many thought entering last year that he would be the top overall pick of the 2011 Entry Draft. He has hockey sense that is off-the-charts, making great reads at both ends of the ice.

As he matures and improves at faceoffs, Couturier really could become a serious Selke Trophy candidate. He also has nice hands around the net and makes good passes. His skating will never be pretty, but neither was Rod Brind'Amour's (although Roddy had the advantage of being the strongest pound-for-pound player in the NHL, quite possibly in the world).

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...11711/45/39518

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Old
11-07-2011, 04:01 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan* View Post
So if the Flyers are being driven by luck how do you respond to the previous groups lack of luck? It is like two sides of a deal, one has grown stronger, while the other has weakened. I have a feeling we will be talking about this group for several years, but the group who left will all see declines in their careers.

:Just a hunch, but I have been right about these things before.
You can tell they have grown stronger after 14 games, Bannedphan? 43% of their current goals have come against Ottawa, Winnipeg, and Columbus. Their offense isn't anywhere near as good as it appears currently. I have a feeling when the second half comes people like you will be whining and wondering why this team is still inconsistent. No doubt the coach will be the next in line to go under the bus.

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