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Old
11-07-2011, 04:38 PM
  #51
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Koivu was never offered a contract.

Komisarek wanted to cash in. He did and we're better off without his contract. Same thing happened with Wiz. If Andrei wants his 5 million elsewhere, that's fine, I wish him good luck. He's main value to this team is that he's an affordable contributor, similarly to Gorges. Once these types of players become overpaid, specially with our already expensive forwards, your team is worst for it.

Whatever the extent of this "dischord" with the coach is all hearsay and if they did happen, from the looks of it, has already passed. Martin is using him against tough opposition and hes responding well with strong play. He's also found chemistry with a maturing talented center.

I don't see how you can't find similarities with the aforementioned players. Home grown talent, drafted and developed for a good number of years. All are comfortable in the city and have expressed their desire to stay. Like Pleks, AK was also given a chance to perform on a UFA year.

I'm pretty confident we can lock up AK at 4 million tops.
oh, my bad, and here I thought that Koivu/Komi were drafted and developed in montreal


the discord with the coach isn't "hearsay", it's Kost's comments to a reporter... now of course, things change, people change, and reporters often manipulate stories/quotes, but during JM's first 2 years in MTL, it was pretty apparent that there wasn't a lot of mutual admiration btw the two (not that there needs to be).

I don't even really get what your point is.

there are several reasons, which i outlined, that make up a strong case for why A.Kost is likely to both test the market, and end up signing elsewhere (as you point out yourself, @ 5M). Nothing about that is "panic" or "doom/gloom", it just is what it is... and for our team, imo, it's a bit unfortunate.

where you would look at Kost or Gorges, and think we're better off without them if they get market value contracts, I look at them and think it's a damn shame we paid top-$$ market value for older vets that we didn't develop, that have no connection to the city/team, and who are truly just "gun's for hire" (and in our case, unfortunately, quite unproductive guns for hire).

If we didn't have Gio/Gomez/Cammy earning far more than they produce, we could afford to pay A.Kost his 4-5M$ first UFA contract, and allow him to hopefully continue developing towards his potential with us.

I mean seriously... you'd want to watch Gorges walk if he gets a significant raise, even after enduring 3 years of spacegoat on a bloated contract?


as with the Streit situation, and others (including Komi), by not properly dealing with contract extensions for home-grown talent already with the team, we end up forcibly overpaying in a massive way for UFA mercenaries, who quite often come in at a far worse cost/benefit value than the in-house player who, if treated well (i.e not made to sit an wait until July 1st to find out if an offer is coming), might very well take -if not a home town discount, an average market value as opposed to forcing us to match the highest bidder.


the bad UFA contracts we've given out (to replace players we lost in large part to a poor approach to contract negotiations), are precisely why we won't be able to afford Kost, even if he was inclined to return despite JM...

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Old
11-07-2011, 04:46 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post

I'm pretty confident we can lock up AK at 4 million tops.
A.Kost- 26yrs old

2010-2011 20g 25a 45pts
2011-2012 on pace for 31g 25 a 56pts

E.Cole- 33yrs old

2010-2011 26g 26a 52pts
2011-2012 on pace for 18g 12 a 30 pts


Cole signed a 4 year/4.5M$ deal with a NTC after his 2010-2011 campaign, 3rd best of his career, and coming off an injury plagued 09-10 season.


You really think in the summer of 2012, Kost (who even if he doesn't keep his current pace, is likely good for 45-50pt if he just stays healthy), won't get the same, if not greater offers than what we signed Cole for?

admittedly, we overpaid for Cole and no other team was offering as much... but even if 4M$ is the most Kost gets offered elsewhere, do you think he'd be happy to stay in Montreal for a 4M$ deal after watching Cole (and Gionta) cash in for more despite not producing any more than he does?


I hope you are right... but doesn't seem even remotely realistic to me barring a major injury...

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Old
11-07-2011, 04:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
A.Kost- 26yrs old

2010-2011 20g 25a 45pts
2011-2012 on pace for 31g 25 a 56pts

E.Cole- 33yrs old

2010-2011 26g 26a 52pts
2011-2012 on pace for 18g 12 a 30 pts


Cole signed a 4 year/4.5M$ deal with a NTC after his 2010-2011 campaign, 3rd best of his career, and coming off an injury plagued 09-10 season.


You really think in the summer of 2012, Kost (who even if he doesn't keep his current pace, is likely good for 45-50pt if he just stays healthy), won't get the same, if not greater offers than what we signed Cole for?

admittedly, we overpaid for Cole and no other team was offering as much... but even if 4M$ is the most Kost gets offered elsewhere, do you think he'd be happy to stay in Montreal for a 4M$ deal after watching Cole (and Gionta) cash in for more despite not producing any more than he does?


I hope you are right... but doesn't seem even remotely realistic to me barring a major injury...
Humm... AK is known to be a floater, contrary to Cole. Cole has won a cup, AK has won a place on our 3rd line...

AK won't get Cole money, not even close... You think that salary is only define by the number of points you score ?

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11-07-2011, 04:51 PM
  #54
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Did Gorges' or Markov's brother say they should get the hell out of Montreal?

I am sure Andrei will listen to his brother more than people on these boards when deciding where to play next year.
Pretty sure AK is tight with a lot of players on the team too though and would sign here if it were a fair deal.

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11-07-2011, 04:55 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Humm... AK is known to be a floater, contrary to Cole. Cole has won a cup, AK has won a place on our 3rd line...

AK won't get Cole money, not even close... You think that salary is only define by the number of points you score ?
Ah, you're a funny guy!

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11-07-2011, 05:00 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Humm... AK is known to be a floater, contrary to Cole. Cole has won a cup, AK has won a place on our 3rd line...

AK won't get Cole money, not even close... You think that salary is only define by the number of points you score ?
You fail right here.

He's wrongly accused of that just because of his nationality and comparison to Kovalev.

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11-07-2011, 05:06 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Humm... AK is known to be a floater, contrary to Cole. Cole has won a cup, AK has won a place on our 3rd line...

AK won't get Cole money, not even close... You think that salary is only define by the number of points you score ?
not the only, but a massive one.

do you really think Cole would have got the deal we gave him had he been coming off of an 18g/40pt season like he had in 08-09?


or from our own team, Cammalleri used 2 good seasons of pts to get a 6M$ contract from us.


no cup
no history of strong clutch/playoff performance (before mtl), in fact, quite the opposite...
1-dimensional

6 yrs/6M$... why? b/c we were desperate and he was coming off of a 39g/80pt season.



I'd gladly make a friendly wage with you if your so sure...

If Kost gets 4M$/season or more on his next contract, you add MILLER TIME to the tagline at the bottom of your posts.

If Kost gets less than 4M$/season, I'll add MTL-rules.

i won't even add anything about length of contract (so if he gets some ridiculous 10-year deal that keeps him under 4M$, you still win)

to be left on for the remainder of 2012.

you game?

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Old
11-07-2011, 05:18 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Humm... AK is known to be a floater, contrary to Cole. Cole has won a cup, AK has won a place on our 3rd line...

AK won't get Cole money, not even close... You think that salary is only define by the number of points you score ?
if that's the only unit of measure, what does that say about Plekanec or Gorges...

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11-07-2011, 05:18 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
if that's the only unit of measure, what does that say about Plekanec or Gorges...
Or dandenault.

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11-07-2011, 05:22 PM
  #60
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Or dandenault.
or Pat Traverse...



well, huh...

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11-07-2011, 05:23 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
or Pat Traverse...



well, huh...
Commiting this emoticon to memory. Thanks!

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11-07-2011, 05:43 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Humm... AK is known to be a floater, contrary to Cole. Cole has won a cup, AK has won a place on our 3rd line...

AK won't get Cole money, not even close... You think that salary is only define by the number of points you score ?
Why do people insist on including the comment that so and so won a cup, especially when it was years ago. It is almost totally irrelevant to what the player is going to contribute going forward.

As for Cole, his inconsistency frustrated his previous teams. It's what frustrates many when it comes to Kostitsyn. I can see a parallel.

Kosty a floater? Well he has been tagged with that label by some but it is less than obvious to me. He has lapses (see inconsistency) but other than Pleks who seems to go hard all of the time, who doesn't have lapses.

Having said all of that, I think Kosty could get more than $4m but less than $5m but that is just a guess.

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11-07-2011, 05:53 PM
  #63
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Why do people insist on including the comment that so and so won a cup, especially when it was years ago. It is almost totally irrelevant to what the player is going to contribute going forward.
That's BS. Stanley Cup experience is an asset, no doubt in my mind. It's not the "be-all end-all", but you're damn right GMs value a guy who has been there.

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11-07-2011, 06:22 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Humm... AK is known to be a floater, contrary to Cole. Cole has won a cup, AK has won a place on our 3rd line...

AK won't get Cole money, not even close... You think that salary is only define by the number of points you score ?
You do know that the year the Canes and Cole won the Cup, Cole was a non-factor as he played in a grand total of 2 games in the playoffs that year, games 6 and 7 of the Finals.

Cole got his salary this year cause of some good years on a return back to Carolina, he did bad in Edmonton and it looked to be the end for him. AK maybe on the 3rd line, but that 3rd line is getting almost the same minutes as the 1-2 lines cause of their play. AK can score, he can hit and he seems to have quite the chemistry with Eller. Going forward I would like to have him with Eller as it is the first time in years that we actually have more than not just 1 line, or 2 lines that can score...we have 3.

AK can be signed, and it won't cost Cole money unless he has a crazy year and hits the July 1st market and see's what the asking price is for him out there.

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11-07-2011, 07:01 PM
  #65
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If Michael Ryder can get 4mil a year after the season he had during his last year in Montreal, while the cap was lower, then I don't understand how Kostitsyn can't get more this summer. History says Kostitsyn is getting more this summer.

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11-07-2011, 09:25 PM
  #66
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i think akost will get between 4 and 4.5 mil/year. and honestly i'd pay him that. judging by last year's UFA crop, he could easily get 4.5 on the market and we'd be stupid to let him, another asset, walk away for nothing - especially an asset which has so far proved to be very important to us.

if we can't do it because the cap is tight, then something has to be done about the man responsible for making our cap tight... .... ya know?

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11-07-2011, 09:57 PM
  #67
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As of right now, Cole is better than AK. Pretty much sums up the whole story for me. Not to say I wouldn't keep AK, especially at anything under 4, but I also wouldn't get my expectations up.

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11-07-2011, 11:07 PM
  #68
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If Andrei Kosts signs a 4 year ($4mil/year) contract with us we will be in trouble.

He's thinking of that big contract and not a CUP (my gut instinct).

He will slack for 3 of the 4 years. If there was a way to give him the same $3,25 for ONE year then I would, since...it seems like he plays well (more consistent) only during a contract year.

Save the $$$$$ for Price, Subban, Gorges, Pacioretty, Eller, Moen...guys that want a CUP.

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11-07-2011, 11:33 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
oh, my bad, and here I thought that Koivu/Komi were drafted and developed in montreal

Why do you keep bringing up Koivu if we never even offered him a contract?

Quote:
the discord with the coach isn't "hearsay", it's Kost's comments to a reporter... now of course, things change, people change, and reporters often manipulate stories/quotes, but during JM's first 2 years in MTL, it was pretty apparent that there wasn't a lot of mutual admiration btw the two (not that there needs to be).
Even if it was apparent, how the hell do quantify this discord and predict how AK would react? For all you know, the rough patch has already passed and was never even that serious to begin with for AK to pack his bags and leave the comfort of a city he played for his entire NHL career.

Quote:
I don't even really get what your point is.


there are several reasons, which i outlined, that make up a strong case for why A.Kost is likely to both test the market, and end up signing elsewhere (as you point out yourself, @ 5M). Nothing about that is "panic" or "doom/gloom", it just is what it is... and for our team, imo, it's a bit unfortunate.
Weak case in my opinion. I don't believe JM is that big a factor and I think home city comfort, specially for a quiet type individual like AK, plays a much bigger role. Ultimately it's a question of $ and like I mentioned, if AK gets 5M somewhere else, there's nothing "unfortunate" about that.

Did you find it "unfortunate" that we didn't sign Komisarek at that price?

Quote:
where you would look at Kost or Gorges, and think we're better off without them if they get market value contracts, I look at them and think it's a damn shame we paid top-$$ market value for older vets that we didn't develop, that have no connection to the city/team, and who are truly just "gun's for hire" (and in our case, unfortunately, quite unproductive guns for hire).


If we didn't have Gio/Gomez/Cammy earning far more than they produce, we could afford to pay A.Kost his 4-5M$ first UFA contract, and allow him to hopefully continue developing towards his potential with us.

I mean seriously... you'd want to watch Gorges walk if he gets a significant raise, even after enduring 3 years of spacegoat on a bloated contract?

as with the Streit situation, and others (including Komi), by not properly dealing with contract extensions for home-grown talent already with the team, we end up forcibly overpaying in a massive way for UFA mercenaries, who quite often come in at a far worse cost/benefit value than the in-house player who, if treated well (i.e not made to sit an wait until July 1st to find out if an offer is coming), might very well take -if not a home town discount, an average market value as opposed to forcing us to match the highest bidder.the bad UFA contracts we've given out (to replace players we lost in large part to a poor approach to contract negotiations), are precisely why we won't be able to afford Kost, even if he was inclined to return despite JM...
Overpaid player is an overpaid player. If AK gets 5M, you really think this fanbase would say "Gee wilickers, he's overpaid but at least we developed him and connects with the city!"

They'll ask for his head regardless of where he came from.

Also don't understand the need to paint UFA in a bad light by calling them "mercenaries" and "hired guns" in a negative tone. Free agent signings are an important aspect of building a winning club.

I trust management will do what they need to do in order to sign who they need to sign. I haven't really seen anyone we wanted to resign walk because we couldn't afford him. Hammer maybe, but he wasn't in the core plans going forward. Komo, yeah...I'll leave that one alone. Streit we stupidly never offered a contract, that's a different blunder all together. But no one we planned to keep, lost out and regretted not paying market value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
A.Kost- 26yrs old

2010-2011 20g 25a 45pts
2011-2012 on pace for 31g 25 a 56pts

E.Cole- 33yrs old

2010-2011 26g 26a 52pts
2011-2012 on pace for 18g 12 a 30 pts


Cole signed a 4 year/4.5M$ deal with a NTC after his 2010-2011 campaign, 3rd best of his career, and coming off an injury plagued 09-10 season.


You really think in the summer of 2012, Kost (who even if he doesn't keep his current pace, is likely good for 45-50pt if he just stays healthy), won't get the same, if not greater offers than what we signed Cole for?


admittedly, we overpaid for Cole and no other team was offering as much... but even if 4M$ is the most Kost gets offered elsewhere, do you think he'd be happy to stay in Montreal for a 4M$ deal after watching Cole (and Gionta) cash in for more despite not producing any more than he does?


I hope you are right... but doesn't seem even remotely realistic to me barring a major injury...[/B]

Uhh No? lol. I'd actually be STUNNED if he got the same cash and would flat out laugh if he got more.

Cole is a proven vet, consistent producer, and a Stanley cup winner at that. AK is on pace for his 2nd 50 point season and already has lingering motivation issues surrounding him.


AK staying for 4M isn't even remotely realistic? That's rich. We pay him 3.25 M to produce like he's producing. Giving him a increase to account for free agency inflation is more than fair value.

The closest thing to a worst case scenario is the contract that Ville Leino got this summer and that was widely regarded as a ridiculous contract. I'd love to see another GM hand out something similar to AK just for kicks.

At his current pace:

Above 4.5 he'll NEVER get. 4.5 is stupid money. 4.25 is a generous offer. 4.0 is fair value and anything less is a home town discount.

Given that we're paying him 3.25 already, and increase of a million is not beyond our capacity.

Edit: Just to add, Pleka settled for less even after outproducing Gomez and Cammy so why is it inconceivable for AK to do the same?


Last edited by Habsfan18: 11-08-2011 at 11:56 AM. Reason: merge
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Old
11-08-2011, 12:46 AM
  #70
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Kostitsyn: very good shot, very good passer, can throw the body around, very good hands.

One dimensional.

Lol.

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11-08-2011, 01:50 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post

Above 4.5 he'll NEVER get. 4.5 is stupid money. 4.25 is a generous offer. 4.0 is fair value and anything less is a home town discount.

Given that we're paying him 3.25 already, and increase of a million is not beyond our capacity.
See above... Same offer I made Mtl-rules, but even easier for you.

Assuming kost stays relatively healthy (70+ games)

<4.25, Mooks as my quote until end of 2012

>4.25, miller time as your quote until end of 2012

You that sure? Cuz I am

Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post

Edit: Just to add, Pleka settled for less even after outproducing Gomez and Cammy so why is it inconceivable for AK to do the same?
Gomez-contract given by NYR, not Habs, completely irrelevant.



Cammy- coming off of career year gets 6M/6yrs as a UFA merc.

Pleks took 1M/year less, but as a returning UFA. I personally felt at the time, and continue to believe, that he took a hometown discount. If he had wanted top-dollar, I bet he could have gotten more... Heck Gionta, a far lesser player, got the same deal a year earlier (and if anything, that's the contract that really highlights Pleks commitment to the team... Could have easily, and accurately, argued that he was worth considerably more).

But if you can't see/appreciate why Kost and his situation makes it far less likely that he'll give the team a break, then we clearly see different things

And I had avoided, until now, mentioning the sibling influence, which would clearly play against the Habs getting any kind of favors from the Kost clan.

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11-08-2011, 02:03 AM
  #72
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Quote:
See above... Same offer I made Mtl-rules, but even easier for you.

Assuming kost stays relatively healthy (70+ games)

<4.25, Mooks as my quote until end of 2012

>4.25, miller time as your quote until end of 2012

You that sure? Cuz I am
Deal. = 4.25 and I still take it.

70+ games, same pace so roughly 55 points.

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11-08-2011, 02:22 AM
  #73
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Deal. = 4.25 and I still take it.

70+ games, same pace so roughly 55 points.
Not in the habit of accepting deals where otherwise adds a twist and then confirms, but sure, I'll give you "even" as well.

But no point caveat.

If he goes on fire, lucky for me...
If he goes into a bad slump and/or JM's doghouse, lucky for you...

Injury reasonable since it can dramatically change things far more than even a 15-20pt+ swing in either direction from his current pace

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11-08-2011, 04:48 AM
  #74
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Kostitsyn having a career year this season in a contract year. Wait having we seen this before? Circa his big year playing with Kovalev and Plekanec.

AK will no doubt get much more than he is worth on the open market. Always a GM will make a mistake. I would be looking to trade Kostitsny at deadline. Too much money for 3rd line minutes here. If no big trade return for him I would keep him to get 1 good playoff out of him. Kostitsny stopped working after hard for the team after he signed his last long term contract. I wouldn't offer Kostitsyn a big contract, just don't gamble like that after being burned on his 3 year deal following '08 season.

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11-08-2011, 05:25 AM
  #75
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There is zero chance AK hits the UFA market and signs for under 4million. It's not gonna happen and he's worth every penny of it.

He is better than every UFA we signed aside from maybe Cammy when he gets hot, but his hot streaks have been few and far between.

I'll jump in with millertime on this one if you allow me to get in on the bet. Only chance we have to sign AK at 4m is during the year, we've seen how that goes. At 4million, at this day and age, Andrei is a steal.

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