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Old
11-07-2011, 07:52 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
How much of the concern over defense is due to Pronger's injury? I don't get to watch any games, so I have no clue how they played before or after the injury. And if we acquire any defensemen, we'll have to get decently priced ones. I don't see any Webers in the future, more like steady 3 mil per season players.
Pronger's injuries would not be such a big deal if others could step up and perform at a very hi level in his absence. But they cant.

A 3 mil or even 4.5 mil Dman cant fill Pronger's shoes while he is off on his injuries. Nor can they replace the elderly Timo whne he retires.

SO no, a 3 or 4 mil Dman is no good. Need two Dmen each making 5-7 mil. One to fillin for Prongs and another to replace Timo, which will be requred soon.

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11-07-2011, 08:33 AM
  #27
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Pronger's injuries would not be such a big deal if others could step up and perform at a very hi level in his absence. But they cant.

A 3 mil or even 4.5 mil Dman cant fill Pronger's shoes while he is off on his injuries. Nor can they replace the elderly Timo whne he retires.

SO no, a 3 or 4 mil Dman is no good. Need two Dmen each making 5-7 mil. One to fillin for Prongs and another to replace Timo, which will be requred soon.
They need two Dmen performing like they are making 5-7 mil, not necessarily getting paid the big bucks yet!

It would be great to have multiple (potential) franchise players on the same team at different stages of their careers. Unfortunately, the prospect pool at D is very shallow right now.

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11-07-2011, 08:59 AM
  #28
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The Flyers defense will be fine going forward. They can sign one of Carle or Coburn this offseason fairly easily or sign them both and trade Mezzaros. The draft this year in loaded with defensemen, with many with 1st pairing potential. They have pieces to trade up if need be and grab one of the better ones as well as load up in the latter rounds. The following year when Timonen is up, the Flyers will have plenty of money to spend. They could sign Tobias Enstrom to replace him as a smaller first pair dman. I think that Holmgren will remake the defense depth this offseason as he did the past offseason for the forwards.

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11-07-2011, 09:14 AM
  #29
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All 3 being shipped out same year? That would be beyond extreme and disruptive. I can see it being staggered with mesz and carle but I would like to keep Coburn. I did read that somewhere that snider is a no crap mood and doesnt want the team stumbling into the playoffs or worse not making it so if there is any stumbling he wants to nip it in the bud..
Gustafsson is showing he could handle Carle's minutes, also give him a guy like Pronger to mentor him and he could be a viable d-man to keep around. He is not going to score a lot of goals, but he can create and will rack up the assists. Agree on keeping Coburn.

Expect maybe a minor move at the end of the season, possibly a deal like Carle and Bobrovsky for a legit d-man. Suter could possibly be out there, but Nashville has no need for a goalie. Not sure what it wuld take, but with Rinne getting his deal, Weber looking for his deal, Suter could be let go. Would Nashville consider a deal with Hartnell??? Simmonds and Hartnell are interchangeable, with Schenn coming back eventually a fwd is going to be expendable. Would Voracek be a piece of a deal? Not sure, but if I am Homer I am focusing on Suter now.

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11-07-2011, 09:19 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
If I can ask, why are you so opposed to moving the assets needed to get Weber?

Right now, this team is in excellent shape, our only huge need is a good young defenseman.

We have quite possibly the best top line in the league, we have some tremendous chemistry on the 2nd line between JVR and Briere starting to form and we have an excellent 3rd line too, complete w/ 2 rookies in the top 5 in rookie scoring, one of whom (Couturier) is 2nd in the whole NHL in +/- while playing on the 3rd / 4th line and often taking on some challenging defensive assignments.

And this is all w/ Brayden Schenn out w/ a broken foot.

My question is, where does Schenn fit, both now and going forward? Obviously you would need to find / make room for a player of his caliber, but if the right move comes along, isn't it easier / better to use him to acquire our long-term #1 shutdown defender? Right now we have 4 centers to fill 3 top-9 roles on our first 3 lines. Giroux isn't moving. And while we might like to move Briere, he has a NMC and is pretty much untouchable (plus he plays pretty darn well for us). That leaves Couturier and Schenn. And from what I've seen from Couturier so far, there's no chance I'm moving him.

That leaves Schenn. Either we move him or we have to play him @ wing and jumble the lines yet again.

So with that in mind, if you can move Schenn + one of the current defensemen (Carle or Coburn or Mesz) + picks for Weber, don't you have to consider it? Won't it make your team better both now and going forward?
Hey, just an FYI. All the love for Couturier is totally earned, but Schenn is a better player, period. When Schenn comes back someone else is moving to wing, not Schenn. Now, that being said, if you can get back a good d-man like Weber I would consider it, but he is currently making $7.5mill and is a RFA, whereas Suter is making $3.5 and is a UFA at end of season. If Nashville is looking like playoffs are a stretch Suter is going to be on the table.

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11-07-2011, 11:06 AM
  #31
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Hey, just an FYI. All the love for Couturier is totally earned, but Schenn is a better player, period. When Schenn comes back someone else is moving to wing, not Schenn.
FYI, posts like this crack me up. They are both great prospects, and I'm thrilled we have both--but on what objective basis is one clearly superior to the other, "period." Based on what would someone else move to wing? Schenn is a better skater than Couturier, so his speed would seem a better asset on the wing. Couturier seems a better defensive player, which again would suggest he is better suited long-term at C than Schenn.

Moving Briere to wing long-terms makes sense to me, but I wouldn't presume to treat that opinion as a well-established fact.

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11-07-2011, 11:39 AM
  #32
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FYI, posts like this crack me up. They are both great prospects, and I'm thrilled we have both--but on what objective basis is one clearly superior to the other, "period." Based on what would someone else move to wing? Schenn is a better skater than Couturier, so his speed would seem a better asset on the wing. Couturier seems a better defensive player, which again would suggest he is better suited long-term at C than Schenn.

Moving Briere to wing long-terms makes sense to me, but I wouldn't presume to treat that opinion as a well-established fact.
Both are good players, Schenn's upside is a bit higher, Couturier's two-way game is a bit better. Both can play on special teams, and both have been known to drop the gloves on occaison. Schenn has been a center, whereas Couturier has experience on the wing. Don't get me wrong, good flexibility to have.

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11-07-2011, 03:52 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan* View Post
Hey, just an FYI. All the love for Couturier is totally earned, but Schenn is a better player, period. When Schenn comes back someone else is moving to wing, not Schenn. Now, that being said, if you can get back a good d-man like Weber I would consider it, but he is currently making $7.5mill and is a RFA, whereas Suter is making $3.5 and is a UFA at end of season. If Nashville is looking like playoffs are a stretch Suter is going to be on the table.
Not saying we could realistically trade for and sign him but that 7.5 mil RFA contract of Weber's is a one year arbitrated deal. When he finally gets his multi-year deal, it will be more in the 6.5 to 7 mil cap hit. Kimmo makes 6.3 mil per season... just sayin, haha!

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11-07-2011, 05:02 PM
  #34
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Trading Meszaros

I don't get to watch Philly's games, so maybe I'm missing something. Why would you want to trade Meszaros, overall he seems to be your best defenseman. Last year he either led , or was only a few off of the leader, in every category for D-men: led hits (189), three off shots on goal (144), tied lead in +/- (30), led goals (8)... only assists was he far off the pace (24 to Carle's 39).

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11-08-2011, 01:33 AM
  #35
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It seems people are far to comfortable in believing that either Suter or Weber will absolutely be in orange and black next season. We're in for a rude awakening when NSH re-signs them both.

edit: Our issue is not with personnel. We have top a 3 defensive corp in the NHL on paper. Something isn't right about our defensive system. That needs to be fixed. Imagine how a coach like Lemaire or Tippett would do with our defensive corp?

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11-16-2011, 01:35 PM
  #36
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Is it just me or does anyone else think Jason Garrison is playing really well for the Panthers? According to CapGeek, he's being paid $675,000 and is an UFA next season. I don't know about you, but I'd definitely like to see someone like him in our line-up. I know he's not a defense centerpiece, but I can see him replacing, say, Carle.

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11-16-2011, 01:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Is it just me or does anyone else think Jason Garrison is playing really well for the Panthers? According to CapGeek, he's being paid $675,000 and is an UFA next season. I don't know about you, but I'd definitely like to see someone like him in our line-up. I know he's not a defense centerpiece, but I can see him replacing, say, Carle.
I think he's playing a bit over his head offensively, but both FLA and CAR have a bunch of solid "3" defenseman. As a Carle replacement sure...

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11-16-2011, 02:03 PM
  #38
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Is it just me or does anyone else think Jason Garrison is playing really well for the Panthers? According to CapGeek, he's being paid $675,000 and is an UFA next season. I don't know about you, but I'd definitely like to see someone like him in our line-up. I know he's not a defense centerpiece, but I can see him replacing, say, Carle.
He had a really good game when we faced them earlier this week. As a deal around trade deadline if Florida falls behind, then I would be interested for sure. Him and Weaver have been paired fairly often for the Cats I believe (at least they were last season), he's an upcoming UFA as well. I've always liked Weaver, he's a competitive little guy. That means that Garrison isn't just a big shot, but he's pretty solid defensively as well and has been up against the oppositions top lines regularly.

If he continues to score like he has so far (not that likely, he'd end up with about 35 goals if I got the math done right), his next contract will have a rather different cap hit however. I would be a bit wary of a guy like him when that time comes. Last season was the first year he was a regular NHLer after all. There have been a few players (especially on d) that have been rewarded big time for just one or two good seasons, but not being able to live up to their contracts.

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11-16-2011, 02:13 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Is it just me or does anyone else think Jason Garrison is playing really well for the Panthers? According to CapGeek, he's being paid $675,000 and is an UFA next season. I don't know about you, but I'd definitely like to see someone like him in our line-up. I know he's not a defense centerpiece, but I can see him replacing, say, Carle.
I think somebody is going to end up overpaying him on the basis that he can be an offensive weapon and I'm not sure he can consistently provide offense from the blueline. Personally I think they should target someone like Zach Bogosian, somebody who fits the typical "could use a change of scenery" mold.

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11-16-2011, 02:39 PM
  #40
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I think somebody is going to end up overpaying him on the basis that he can be an offensive weapon and I'm not sure he can consistently provide offense from the blueline. Personally I think they should target someone like Zach Bogosian, somebody who fits the typical "could use a change of scenery" mold.
Perhaps, but I think it's not only his offensive side that's good, it's also the actual defense. I do agree on possible overpayment, though.

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11-16-2011, 02:44 PM
  #41
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They need two Dmen performing like they are making 5-7 mil, not necessarily getting paid the big bucks yet!

.
Trouble is, any available Dmen playing like they deserve 5-7 mil ... will demand 5-7mil. What you want is an up n coming Dman who will 'break out' as soon as the Flyers grab him.

Such a beast is rare, hard to get, and impossible to identify with any degree of certainty.

Because Prongs and Timo may be kaput any day, you cannot roll the dice. You need a bona fide star Dman who you are fairly certain will play at a very high level.

Such a beast will cost you 5-7 mil. But really, the Flyers can grab two such guys at 6 or 6.5 mil each. Timo makes that amount, and he'll probably retire the year after next. And getting rid of Carle alone will net you 4.5 out of that 6.5 mil you need.
\
It CAN be done, and I argue it HAS to be done given what I have outlined already wrt Prongs and Timo.

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11-16-2011, 03:07 PM
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When Timonen signed his contract it was roughly the equivalent of a 7.5 mil contract today.

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11-16-2011, 03:50 PM
  #43
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Guys..
Nashville's owner said he will put the money up to pay for all 3 as long as they are close to market value..

They will re-sign all 3..
1/3 of the way done now as is

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Old
11-16-2011, 07:44 PM
  #44
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Why are Weber and Suter the only options?

Are there no other teams that desperately need young offensive talent (i.e. 1 of the 83 promising rookies we now have) or a goalie (i.e. Sergei "guess what guys, you're about to lose in a shootout" Bobrovsky)?

I would rather have Leighton as a backup. At least he'll stop 25% of shots on breakaways/penalty shots/shootouts.

And even though I'd like to see all these young guys stick around for the next 10 years, I'd rather see the Flyers get something for them than sending them down to the Phantoms or something because they have no room.

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11-16-2011, 08:04 PM
  #45
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Why are Weber and Suter the only options?

Are there no other teams that desperately need young offensive talent (i.e. 1 of the 83 promising rookies we now have) or a goalie (i.e. Sergei "guess what guys, you're about to lose in a shootout" Bobrovsky)?

I would rather have Leighton as a backup. At least he'll stop 25% of shots on breakaways/penalty shots/shootouts.

And even though I'd like to see all these young guys stick around for the next 10 years, I'd rather see the Flyers get something for them than sending them down to the Phantoms or something because they have no room.
If Michael Leighton EVER plays another game in a Flyers uniform, someone will pay in blood. No no no no no no no no no no....NO!

That being said, I'd trade Bob for a nice D prospect and a serviceable backup...idealistic, possibly, but there is no rush to move Bob. Look at Schneider and Harding. It doesn't hurt to be in a situation where we have two quality goaltenders. One could argue we haven't been this set between the pipes in decades. Snow and Hextall was the last remotely serviceable tandem we had, and that was even suspect.

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Old
11-16-2011, 08:51 PM
  #46
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If Michael Leighton EVER plays another game in a Flyers uniform, someone will pay in blood. No no no no no no no no no no....NO!

That being said, I'd trade Bob for a nice D prospect and a serviceable backup...idealistic, possibly, but there is no rush to move Bob. Look at Schneider and Harding. It doesn't hurt to be in a situation where we have two quality goaltenders. One could argue we haven't been this set between the pipes in decades. Snow and Hextall was the last remotely serviceable tandem we had, and that was even suspect.
You have to admit he looks lost whenever he's in a situation where it's him vs. the shooter. I think we do need to trade soon before people start to realize this serious weakness and pass on him.

Imagine how much better this team would be if we could get rid of him/one of our excess offensive talents/maybe a later draft pick too for proven talent at D, and maybe even a semi-decent D prospect as well (anything's better than Lilja or Walker). I think we would almost be playoff guaranteed and have a roster that's set up for at least 4 or 5 years of success.

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11-16-2011, 10:20 PM
  #47
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Do we trade for Weber(if even possible), wait for UFA status on Suter, trade for rights to Suter, or go another route? Rather not give up assets needed to acquire Weber.Would like to see Schenn stay if possible with Couturier in Philly. Thoughts?


WE don't do anything. WE just sit back and watch what Homer does for the team. There are many many options available to this team and many many more that will open up in the near future.

Holmgren has has quite a series of events that he's done to actually improve this team and to give us one of the best teams in the league even with as young as we are. some of these he has paid a pretty penny for (such as Pronger). Others he has paid pennies on the dollar to obtain (Meszaros). Others he's had this team take a few steps backwards for potential long term gain (trades of Richards and Carter). Still other times he's had to make a series of moves at a much greater than necessary cost just to rectify some blatant blunders he's made (most notably giving Jones a ridiculous contract where he was incapable of fulfilling a needed role forcing homer to try and rectify it by over paying for Eminger and when THAT debacle didn't work out he again had to over pay to acquire Carle). His blatant blunders have cost us the likes of Downie, John Carlson and Johnathan Blum. All 3 of those players could and should be on our current roster if it weren't for Holmgrens blunders. However, without his "wizard-like" GM'ing we certainly wouldn't have guys like Couturier, Coburn and Pronger (among many others).

From what I've seen Holmgren screws the pooch when he makes knee-jerk reaction move but brilliant moves when he has time to consider his options. Right now there is no dire need to remedy our "future defensive woes" so I'm not worried about him screwing things up. The defense is fine right now. If an opportunity presents itself (like Weber or Suter being on the market) then I definitely believe that Holmgren WILL be active in his pursuit of said player and if and only if it is a good move for the Flyers then he'll do whatever it takes to get it done.

Talk about it all you want, the point it that us "talking about it" doesn't mean a god-damned thing.

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11-16-2011, 10:39 PM
  #48
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[QUOTE=sobrien;39124037]It seems people are far to comfortable in believing that either Suter or Weber will absolutely be in orange and black next season. We're in for a rude awakening when NSH re-signs them both.

edit: Our issue is not with personnel. We have top a 3 defensive corp in the NHL on paper. Something isn't right about our defensive system. That needs to be fixed. Imagine how a coach like Lemaire or Tippett would do with our defensive corp?[/QUOTE]



The problem isn't with the defensemen, it's with the forwards playing well in the defensive zone that's a problem. We traded our 3 best defensive forwards from last year and we've let our forwards open up the offensive game (have you all noticed that we've benn at or near the top in GPG all season long???) and it takes away from their defensive play. Our forwards are getting caught up ice, out of position and making bad turnovers looking for homerun passes that are costing us goals against.

With the team we have I think that we HAVE to let our forwards open it up and for us to try and win a scoring race by hoping or defense and shiny new #1 goalie can make some big plays on their own without the need for a stifling team defense that also stifles the team offense.

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11-16-2011, 10:53 PM
  #49
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[QUOTE=phlocky;39539399]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
It seems people are far to comfortable in believing that either Suter or Weber will absolutely be in orange and black next season. We're in for a rude awakening when NSH re-signs them both.

edit: Our issue is not with personnel. We have top a 3 defensive corp in the NHL on paper. Something isn't right about our defensive system. That needs to be fixed. Imagine how a coach like Lemaire or Tippett would do with our defensive corp?[/QUOTE]



The problem isn't with the defensemen, it's with the forwards playing well in the defensive zone that's a problem. We traded our 3 best defensive forwards from last year and we've let our forwards open up the offensive game (have you all noticed that we've benn at or near the top in GPG all season long???) and it takes away from their defensive play. Our forwards are getting caught up ice, out of position and making bad turnovers looking for homerun passes that are costing us goals against.

With the team we have I think that we HAVE to let our forwards open it up and for us to try and win a scoring race by hoping or defense and shiny new #1 goalie can make some big plays on their own without the need for a stifling team defense that also stifles the team offense.
I've missed the last couple of games, but I don't agree with this at all. The defensive play from the forwards may have slipped some, but not a lot in my eyes. Subtracting Richards and Carter and adding Simmonds, Voracek (who's hustle has been a surprise to me), Couturier, Read, and Talbot almost offsets as far as I'm concerned. You can't blame our dismal GA total on our forwards.

Remember we've let in about 15-20 fluke deflection goals already this year, either from opposing players or our own players. The personnel is there, the system I'm not so sure of.

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11-16-2011, 10:55 PM
  #50
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[QUOTE=phlocky;39539399]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
It seems people are far to comfortable in believing that either Suter or Weber will absolutely be in orange and black next season. We're in for a rude awakening when NSH re-signs them both.

edit: Our issue is not with personnel. We have top a 3 defensive corp in the NHL on paper. Something isn't right about our defensive system. That needs to be fixed. Imagine how a coach like Lemaire or Tippett would do with our defensive corp?[/QUOTE]



The problem isn't with the defensemen, it's with the forwards playing well in the defensive zone that's a problem. We traded our 3 best defensive forwards from last year and we've let our forwards open up the offensive game (have you all noticed that we've benn at or near the top in GPG all season long???) and it takes away from their defensive play. Our forwards are getting caught up ice, out of position and making bad turnovers looking for homerun passes that are costing us goals against.

With the team we have I think that we HAVE to let our forwards open it up and for us to try and win a scoring race by hoping or defense and shiny new #1 goalie can make some big plays on their own without the need for a stifling team defense that also stifles the team offense.
then why do most of the goals come from deflections of our d men, or a result from the defensemen not being able to clear the crease, or terrible outlet passes, and poor chemistry with the puck behind our net

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