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11-08-2011, 11:05 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Was Hickey a screw up? Sure. But if you want to go and deem Lombardi a draft screw up, you have to do the same for Taylor as well. Thus far Lombaradi on a whole has looked good draft wise, especially after the first round when most teams struggle. Taylor's drafting was pretty bad for the most part.

Starting in 1994, Taylor picks that panned out IMO ( guys who have played the equivalent of two full NHL seasons or 160 games or so) are Jamie Storr, Matt Johnson, Vitali Yachmenev, Aki Berg, Vladimir Tsyplakov, Eric Belanger, Josh Green, Joe Corvo, Olli Jokinen, Mathieu Biron, George Parros, Brian McGratton, Fratisek Kaberle, Lubomir Vishnovksy, Andreas lilja, Alexander Frolov, Christobel Huet, Mike Cammalleri, David Steckel, Denis Grebeshkov, Jeff Tambellini, Brian boyle, Dustin Brown, Jonathan Quick and Anze Kopitar.

That's 25 players, which actually seems impressive. When you look over the names though, it's pretty easy to see it isn't. Storr, Johnson, Yachmenev, Berg, Tsyplakov, Green, Biron, Parros, McGratton, Steckel, Grebeshkov, Tambellini and Boyle have all had career that have been largely defined as depth or role players. That means we have 12 players from 12 drafts, or one a year that did something that can be considered average or better.

Belanger was nice, but hardly a "core" player that you were wanting, and if Scuderi, Mitchell and Greene are "not great, not terrible" then the same would apply to Joe Corvo, Andreas Lilja and Frantisek Kaberle as well.

And since you seem to attest very high draft picks shouldn't count since they are so hard to scew up, Olli Jokinen, the 3rd overall pick in 1997, shouldn't count for Taylor either I guess, correct?

So that leaves Vishnovsky, Frolov, Huet, Cammalleri, Brown, Quick and Kopitar. As for my earlier post in this thread, i debate both Huet and Quick, given Taylor's inabaility to develop goalies. The fact Huet blossomed after leaving LA and that QUick didn't do much until Taylor was let go attest to that.

So Taylor's biggest accomplishments in 12 drafts really boil down to Vishnovsky, Frolov, Cammy, Brown and Kopitar, the last of which never played a game under Taylor. We'll see where DL sits after 12 drafts but if that's all he has to show for himself after 12 years, I'd be mighty disappointed.
Give the DT comparison a rest. I NEVER indicated that I was a DT supporter in this thread. I merely was indicating what DL started with from the prior regime.

I would prefer to focus on what DL has not accomplished in his five years here.

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11-08-2011, 11:12 AM
  #27
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Five years into the DL experiment and of all the players you listed above only TWO are actually making a contribution to the team. Three if you want to count a backup goalie who hasn't won a game yet this year. That is certainly impressive...I'll have to rethink my position!!
Again, DEVELOPMENT,

But again, you go back to being a miserable...can't even call you a fan I don't think....just be miserable person who watches the Kings.

But those are what he drafted, you didn't count Richards for some reason, why is that? Oh yea, doesn't support your argument...

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11-08-2011, 11:15 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Five years into the DL experiment and of all the players you listed above only TWO are actually making a contribution to the team. Three if you want to count a backup goalie who hasn't won a game yet this year. That is certainly impressive...I'll have to rethink my position!!
Five years into the DL experiment, the only players he drafted that were playing for LA were Jamie Storr (Our backup then like Bernier is now), Matt Johnson (our resident goon), Vitali Yachmenev (also flashed in the pan and was trade to Nashville after a season with the Long Beach Ice Dogs) Vladimir Tsyplakov (he was traded in 199 for an 8th round pick), Aki Berg (who in 1999 went back to Europe for a season, great one there) and Josh Green, who played all of 27 career games for us. Olli Jokinen also finished his one and only season with us that year.

The contributions Doughty and Johnson are making this year to the Kings far outweighs the contributions those seven players I mentioned were making for the Kings in 1999. About the only other players the Kings had added at that point to what could be their long-term core would be Sean O'Donnell and Matthias Norstrom, and DT even messed that up by letting O'Donnell go in the waiver draft. Norstrom meanwhile is off-set by Greene from the current roster, give or take.

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11-08-2011, 11:16 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Again, DEVELOPMENT,

But again, you go back to being a miserable...can't even call you a fan I don't think....just be miserable person who watches the Kings.

But those are what he drafted, you didn't count Richards for some reason, why is that? Oh yea, doesn't support your argument...
I would call my position objective...not miserable. If you want miserable, go look at the post game comments.

I did mention Richards...good player but his talent is wasted on this team. Wrong trade at the wrong time.

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11-08-2011, 11:16 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Give the DT comparison a rest. I NEVER indicated that I was a DT supporter in this thread. I merely was indicating what DL started with from the prior regime.

I would prefer to focus on what DL has not accomplished in his five years here.
That's quite a long list,

He hasn't accomplished peace in the middle east,

He hasn't cured cancer

He hasn't made a billion,

I mean, if that's what you are focusing on, you have really defined yourself.

Hey, let's focus on what Ken Holland hasn't accomplished.

He hasn't drafted star goaltender, he hasn't drafted a top 15 superstar C in the first round, he hasn't drafted a top 10 superstar D in the first round,

My god, imagine if everyone focused on what people have not accomplished...

Really bud? Like I said before, you are out of your tree...

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11-08-2011, 11:18 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Give the DT comparison a rest. I NEVER indicated that I was a DT supporter in this thread. I merely was indicating what DL started with from the prior regime.

I would prefer to focus on what DL has not accomplished in his five years here.
You offer criticisms but no solutions. You sit from your clock tower sniping away. That isn't really impressive and believe it or not, most people here don't have their lips glued to DL's ass. They see some positive things he has accomplished since being here but he certainly isn't infallible. You selectively pick stats to support your position.

Why don't we ignore who is in charge for a second and just look at the organization. I don't think there is any question the Kings have the building blocks to have a good team. You have a #1 center, a #2 center, a #1 defenseman, a #2 defenseman and legitimate starting goalie who is probably top 10 in the league. So where do we go from here, tomd? Stop criticizing Lombardi for what he has or hasn't done and lets hear you tells us what needs to be done.

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11-08-2011, 11:18 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Give the DT comparison a rest. I NEVER indicated that I was a DT supporter in this thread. I merely was indicating what DL started with from the prior regime.

I would prefer to focus on what DL has not accomplished in his five years here.
I couldn't care less who you support. You asserted that DL has brought nothing to this team and the bulk of the success can be attributed to Dave Taylor's regime. Taylor's regime sucked at the draft, had some hard luck in trades and was ass backward in terms of goalie drafting and development. Give DL credit for correcting two of those issues (trading isn't as strong of a suit for Lombardi, no question).

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11-08-2011, 11:18 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Five years into the DL experiment, the only players he drafted that were playing for LA were Jamie Storr (Our backup then like Bernier is now), Matt Johnson (our resident goon), Vitali Yachmenev (also flashed in the pan and was trade to Nashville after a season with the Long Beach Ice Dogs) Vladimir Tsyplakov (he was traded in 199 for an 8th round pick), Aki Berg (who in 1999 went back to Europe for a season, great one there) and Josh Green, who played all of 27 career games for us. Olli Jokinen also finished his one and only season with us that year.

The contributions Doughty and Johnson are making this year to the Kings far outweighs the contributions those seven players I mentioned were making for the Kings in 1999. About the only other players the Kings had added at that point to what could be their long-term core would be Sean O'Donnell and Matthias Norstrom, and DT even messed that up by letting O'Donnell go in the waiver draft. Norstrom meanwhile is off-set by Greene from the current roster, give or take.
why do you persist with this irrelevant DT comparion???

If DT is the benchmark then you are setting the bar WAY too low.

DL was brought in to win a SC...right now this team is closer to the "black hole" than it is to a SC.

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11-08-2011, 11:20 AM
  #34
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I urge Dean to bring up Loktionov and move Stoll to his RW and either send Clifford down for a bit or cut Hunter loose. We need to see what we have before the GM makes any moves.

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11-08-2011, 11:21 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I couldn't care less who you support. You asserted that DL has brought nothing to this team and the bulk of the success can be attributed to Dave Taylor's regime. Taylor's regime sucked at the draft, had some hard luck in trades and was ass backward in terms of goalie drafting and development. Give DL credit for correcting two of those issues (trading isn't as strong of a suit for Lombardi, no question).
I didn't ASSERT anything of the sort. I simply said (read this slowly) that DL inherited the core of the team from the previous regime. I made no other comment about the previous regime...good or bad. I stated a fact.

If you are happy about what DL has brought to the team then good for you. Stop blaming the coach though. Garbage in...garbage out.

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11-08-2011, 11:22 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
why do you persist with this irrelevant DT comparion???

If DT is the benchmark then you are setting the bar WAY too low.

DL was brought in to win a SC...right now this team is closer to the "black hole" than it is to a SC.
Black hole - an aging team without any hope of internal improvement that is good enough to finish 7-11 in the conference, but not do anything else. No high draft picks and no playoff success even possible.

The Kings are hardly in the black hole.

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11-08-2011, 11:24 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomd View Post
why do you persist with this irrelevant DT comparion???

If DT is the benchmark then you are setting the bar WAY too low.

DL was brought in to win a SC...right now this team is closer to the "black hole" than it is to a SC.
We have a #1 and #2 defensemen, a #1 and #2 centre and a #1 goalie with another kid behind him who has the potential to be an elite #1 goalie. All of those pieces are 25 or younger and all of those pieces are locked up for the next 6 years.

In addition we have a very deep pool of prospects and DL has shown an ability to add to that pool every year.

How the **** is that a black hole? If we can add a goalscorer to the wings and (possibly) replace our head coach, we are right there. This team is about one good goalscorer away from being an elite team, and has the depth and talent and age to be that for a long time and DL has illustrated the cap management abilities to keep it going too.

Btw, Dave Taylor was brought in to win a cup as well, it's not just something DL was saddled with. Dave Taylor was also brought into this thread by you, so don't act surprised when someone comes at you for it. DL is superior to Taylor in every way, outside of trading.

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11-08-2011, 11:25 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
You offer criticisms but no solutions. You sit from your clock tower sniping away. That isn't really impressive and believe it or not, most people here don't have their lips glued to DL's ass. They see some positive things he has accomplished since being here but he certainly isn't infallible. You selectively pick stats to support your position.

Why don't we ignore who is in charge for a second and just look at the organization. I don't think there is any question the Kings have the building blocks to have a good team. You have a #1 center, a #2 center, a #1 defenseman, a #2 defenseman and legitimate starting goalie who is probably top 10 in the league. So where do we go from here, tomd? Stop criticizing Lombardi for what he has or hasn't done and lets hear you tells us what needs to be done.
What solutions should I offer? If I go back over all the things DL has done wrong you would just call me an Monday morning quarterback. Unfortunately, though, he has screwed up MANY things in the last five years or this team would be much much further along.

Funny how everyone can freely criticize TM (and I am not a TM fan) but any criticism of DL - the guy who is responsible for the roster the TM is asked to coach - is considered heresy.

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11-08-2011, 11:28 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Johnson? the jury is still out despite the "JMFJ" tag early on. One even strength point this year and he continues to be a minus player.

Doughty? When you are picking 2nd overall it is hard to screw it up (although DL had no problem screwing up a 4th overall pick so nothing is impossible). But so far I have seen one good year from Doughty and this is his fourth season...at $7mm per.

Richards? 5 even strength points and 1 goal in the last 13 games. Talented? yes. But it was the wrong trade at the wrong time. His talent is totally wasted on this team.
If the team stopped taking so many stupid penalties, Richards, Gagne and Kopi could focus more on scoring goals. I would love it if Gags could play on his line for a couple of games but then would Kopi's scoring tail off? The wingers aren't anywhere as good as the centres and that's a big concern.

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11-08-2011, 11:28 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Black hole - an aging team without any hope of internal improvement that is good enough to finish 7-11 in the conference, but not do anything else. No high draft picks and no playoff success even possible.

The Kings are hardly in the black hole.
Black hole - not bad enough for a top 5 pick but not good enough to make the playoffs. That is DL's definition...not mine.

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11-08-2011, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
I didn't ASSERT anything of the sort. I simply said (read this slowly) that DL inherited the core of the team from the previous regime. I made no other comment about the previous regime...good or bad. I stated a fact.

If you are happy about what DL has brought to the team then good for you. Stop blaming the coach though. Garbage in...garbage out.
In what sport outside of basketball is the core made up of three players (two if you drop Quick from the equation as I do).

Of the three players you say Taylor brought in to the Kings core, only one even played a professional game while he was still the GM. How is that the core? DL gets zero credit for actually developing these guys?

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11-08-2011, 11:31 AM
  #42
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Black hole - not bad enough for a top 5 pick but not good enough to make the playoffs. That is DL's definition...not mine.
But we've made the playoffs the last two yars and there's no reason to assume we can't do it this year either. Therefore, not a black hole.

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11-08-2011, 11:33 AM
  #43
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What solutions should I offer? If I go back over all the things DL has done wrong you would just call me an Monday morning quarterback. Unfortunately, though, he has screwed up MANY things in the last five years or this team would be much much further along.

Funny how everyone can freely criticize TM (and I am not a TM fan) but any criticism of DL - the guy who is responsible for the roster the TM is asked to coach - is considered heresy.
Since you are being condescending, you are right, I didn't ask you to go back over all the things DL has done wrong, I asked you to offer solutions for the future. That is why I said "where to we go from here"? Now, let us all into the mind of a hockey intellectual and tell us what needs to be done to make this team a contender and how one might go about getting there. No need to wallow in the past. Just like what DT did in the past is irrelevant, so is what DL did. What good does blaming Lombardi for whatever we are blaming him for do? I want to know how this team becomes a contender in your eyes. You seem to have it all figured out and it is a fairly simple process so somebody like DL should have figured it out by now.. right?

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11-08-2011, 11:34 AM
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In what sport outside of basketball is the core made up of three players (two if you drop Quick from the equation as I do).

Of the three players you say Taylor brought in to the Kings core, only one even played a professional game while he was still the GM. How is that the core? DL gets zero credit for actually developing these guys?
sigh...if you don't consider Quick and Kopitar as far and away the two best players on this team then we don't even have the basis for a discussion.

Without Quick and Kopitar do the Kings even have a win this year??

And fine, I'll give DL credit for developing Quick and Kopitar. Without his guidance and genius they would both be languishing in the ECHL.

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11-08-2011, 11:35 AM
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I think if we drop below .500 and stay there for a week or so TM is gone. But I think John Stevens replaces him
Trust me. That's the last thing you want to happen in LA. No one deserves that.

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11-08-2011, 11:36 AM
  #46
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But we've made the playoffs the last two yars and there's no reason to assume we can't do it this year either. Therefore, not a black hole.
I said we are closer to the black hole than the SC and I stand by that.

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11-08-2011, 11:39 AM
  #47
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If the team stopped taking so many stupid penalties, Richards, Gagne and Kopi could focus more on scoring goals. I would love it if Gags could play on his line for a couple of games but then would Kopi's scoring tail off? The wingers aren't anywhere as good as the centres and that's a big concern.
I agree with shuffling the lines. For a guy that shuffled the lines so much his first few seasons here, TM is being awfully stubborn about breaking up that Gagne/Kopi/Wiliams line. Kopi will score regardless of who is on his line so I think it would behoove the coach to put a guy like Penner on his line who could use a few lay ups and they'd have some good size on that line. I also think Gagne working with Richards might bring some fluidity to that line.

I've suggested this in a few threads but I think this might help:

Penner/Kopi/Williams
Gagne/Richards/Richardson
Parse/Stoll/Brown
Clifford or Moreau/Lewis/Westgarth or Hunter

The biggest loss to this team has been the 3rd line center. DL's biggest error from the offseason was not keeping Handzus and dumping Stoll. That would have been beneficial to Clifford playing with him and Richards line being able to focus on scoring. The bottom line is we aren't getting secondary scoring and that needs to come from Stoll's line because they are getting the favorable matchups. They haven't done that at all this season and a big reason the Kings are losing games. I even suggested bringing in Arnott in the summer and I got some criticism for that. I think he'd be doing better than Stoll. BTW.. Arnott as 3 goals and 5 assists in less average ice time per a game than Stoll.

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11-08-2011, 11:39 AM
  #48
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would have preferred DL to act, rather than tell us what we have known since the beginning of the season. he can't afford to sit and wait like he did with DD or this season is lost.

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11-08-2011, 11:41 AM
  #49
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I said we are closer to the black hole than the SC and I stand by that.
Well than it must be a fact if you said it.

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11-08-2011, 11:41 AM
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sigh...if you don't consider Quick and Kopitar as far and away the two best players on this team then we don't even have the basis for a discussion.

Without Quick and Kopitar do the Kings even have a win this year??

And fine, I'll give DL credit for developing Quick and Kopitar. Without his guidance and genius they would both be languishing in the ECHL.
When backed into a corner, can't admit defeat huh?

Where did I say they aren't the best players on the team? Where did I even suggest they aren't part of the core?

Kopi and Quick are the best two players on the team. I agree. I said they aren't the only two (or with Brown three) players in the Kings core. Don't try and spin it, they aren't. And the core we have now is pretty damn good, though we need to add some scoring on the wings still. We need a true sniper who can hammer home 40 a season, like a Heatley, Parise, Stamkos, etc.

We get that, we are cruising.

And yes, you are totally correct, Quick and Kopitar would languish in the ECHL without the brilliance of Lombardi. That's clear, just as clear as the fact your sarcasm is of no benefit to this conversation and makes you look like a whiny teenager. It is ok to give Lombardi some credit once in a while, the guy isn't John Ferguson Jr.

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