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Old
11-08-2011, 11:41 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Since you are being condescending, you are right, I didn't ask you to go back over all the things DL has done wrong, I asked you to offer solutions for the future. That is why I said "where to we go from here"? Now, let us all into the mind of a hockey intellectual and tell us what needs to be done to make this team a contender and how one might go about getting there. No need to wallow in the past. Just like what DT did in the past is irrelevant, so is what DL did. What good does blaming Lombardi for whatever we are blaming him for do? I want to know how this team becomes a contender in your eyes. You seem to have it all figured out and it is a fairly simple process so somebody like DL should have figured it out by now.. right?
Condescending? Hardly my friend.

The discussion is not about "where do we go from here". It is about why we are here is the first place five years into DL' regime. The only way to improve the team now is to trade away high draft picks and high end prospects. Or trade JJ for a legit top 6 forward and bring up Voynov to replace him. Really, that's about it unless there is a dumber GM than DL who would take someone like Penner for a legit top 6 forward. Not expecting that though.

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11-08-2011, 11:43 AM
  #52
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Black hole - not bad enough for a top 5 pick but not good enough to make the playoffs. That is DL's definition...not mine.
And they have been good enough to make the playoffs the last two seasons and likely will again this season despite all the doom and gloom right now.

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11-08-2011, 11:45 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
And they have been good enough to make the playoffs the last two seasons and likely will again this season despite all the doom and gloom right now.
Ok, as long as we are still in the "squeeze into the 7th or 8th spot and then anything can happen" mode then there is no reason for doom and gloom.

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11-08-2011, 11:46 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Condescending? Hardly my friend.

The discussion is not about "where do we go from here". It is about why we are here is the first place five years into DL' regime. The only way to improve the team now is to trade away high draft picks and high end prospects. Or trade JJ for a legit top 6 forward and bring up Voynov to replace him. Really, that's about it unless there is a dumber GM than DL who would take someone like Penner for a legit top 6 forward. Not expecting that though.
No, you are turning the discussion that way. That's not how this thread started.

And that's not the only way to do it. Who says we have to go for broke this season? I think the Kings would like to but if DL figures we don't need to, we can wait a season. A few big salaries come off the books, the core is still intact and still young, and some kids like Toffoli are one year closer to being ready. Use the money saved from Stoll, Penner and Mitchell to sign a goalscorer or two, promote Loki and Voynov and we, in thoery have a better team.

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11-08-2011, 11:52 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Condescending? Hardly my friend.

The discussion is not about "where do we go from here". It is about why we are here is the first place five years into DL' regime. The only way to improve the team now is to trade away high draft picks and high end prospects. Or trade JJ for a legit top 6 forward and bring up Voynov to replace him. Really, that's about it unless there is a dumber GM than DL who would take someone like Penner for a legit top 6 forward. Not expecting that though.
In my personal opinion I think the biggest thing the Kings need is a 3rd line center to take the defensive responsibility off Richards. That is the kind of thing I was looking for but apparently the Kings need to have a fire sale and start over because the building blocks just aren't there. You have no solutions, all you offer is criticisms. That is all you are good for and you don't even do a great job of that.

EDIT: BTW.. when you say "read it slowly", that is condescending believe it or not.


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Old
11-08-2011, 11:55 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
No, you are turning the discussion that way. That's not how this thread started.

And that's not the only way to do it. Who says we have to go for broke this season? I think the Kings would like to but if DL figures we don't need to, we can wait a season. A few big salaries come off the books, the core is still intact and still young, and some kids like Toffoli are one year closer to being ready. Use the money saved from Stoll, Penner and Mitchell to sign a goalscorer or two, promote Loki and Voynov and we, in thoery have a better team.
Now YOU are turning the discussion. The expectations from MANY fans (and media) was that the Kings would legitimately challenge for the SC this year. Is that no longer the case?

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11-08-2011, 11:58 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
In my personal opinion I think the biggest thing the Kings need is a 3rd line center to take the defensive responsibility off Richards. That is the kind of thing I was looking for but apparently the Kings need to have a fire sale and start over because the building blocks just aren't there. You have no solutions, all you offer is criticisms. That is all you are good for and you don't even do a great job of that.
buddy, buddy, buddy...where did I say a fire sale was necessary?

DL made the Richards trade publicly stating that it allowed the organization to move Stoll to the #3 spot where he would be the most effective. You disagree?

Personally, I don't know what to do with this team because I don't know what the expectations should be. Is the team challenging for the SC this year? If so, then you need to move some pieces of the future for the present. If not, then just keep building.

what is the goal? I have no idea.

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11-08-2011, 12:00 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Now YOU are turning the discussion. The expectations from MANY fans (and media) was that the Kings would legitimately challenge for the SC this year. Is that no longer the case?
No that is the case. Nothing has changed. There is no question this team is underachieving right now. That is why you see articles like "Coach is on the hot seat". There were expectations and they're still are. We are what.. 12 games into the season? Do you think the Red Wings are legitimate contenders? How can that be if they lost 5 in a row after winning their first 5?

I look forward to a Kings winning streak because I know where you won't be when that happens.


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Old
11-08-2011, 12:05 PM
  #59
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Ok, as long as we are still in the "squeeze into the 7th or 8th spot and then anything can happen" mode then there is no reason for doom and gloom.
Last week the team was 4th in the Western Conference and now they hit a little skid and have slipped to 8th. Hardly worth hitting the panic button over. If they are still trailing Phoenix and Dallas in the standings come the end of January, then you have a legit concern maybe.

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Now YOU are turning the discussion. The expectations from MANY fans (and media) was that the Kings would legitimately challenge for the SC this year. Is that no longer the case?
They can still contend this season.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
No, you are turning the discussion that way. That's not how this thread started.

And that's not the only way to do it. Who says we have to go for broke this season? I think the Kings would like to but if DL figures we don't need to, we can wait a season. A few big salaries come off the books, the core is still intact and still young, and some kids like Toffoli are one year closer to being ready. Use the money saved from Stoll, Penner and Mitchell to sign a goalscorer or two, promote Loki and Voynov and we, in thoery have a better team.
kingsfan is right. As much as some folks want to make it ALL about THIS season, it isn't.

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11-08-2011, 12:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
No that is the case. Nothing has changed. There is no question this team is underachieving right now. That is why you see articles like "Coach is on the hot seat". There were expectations and there still are. We are what.. 12 games into the season? Do you think the Red Wings are legitimate contenders? How can that be if they lost 5 in a row after winning their first 5?

I look forward to a Kings winning streak because I know where you won't be when that happens.
one of us will be vindicated. my position is that the talent is just not there and that DL must be held accountable for that.

If Penner suddenly starts scoring and Williams/Gagne stay healthy and the bottom six suddenly becomes legit and the defense gets more consistent than both DL and TM will look like geniuses.

we'll see.

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11-08-2011, 12:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
buddy, buddy, buddy...where did I say a fire sale was necessary?
You didn't but you made an indication that the only way to salvage the season was to trade high value prospects and picks so I was being sarcastic. I thought you of all people would have a sarcasm detector.

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DL made the Richards trade publicly stating that it allowed the organization to move Stoll to the #3 spot where is would be the most effective. You disagree?
Yes I did and if you'd like me to pull up my post where I suggested Arnott as an upgrade, I'll try and locate it for you. I didn't think Stoll would be this bad but he is.

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Originally Posted by tomd View Post

Personally, I don't know what to do with this team because I don't know what the expectations should be. Is the team challenging for the SC this year? If so, then you need to move some pieces of the future for the present. If not, then just keep building.
I thought you just said the expectations were SC contenders? You can't be serious. You've now twice suggested that the Kings need to move futures to acquire talent to make this team a contender. That suggests to me that you believe the team does have enough talent within the roster to contend and supplanting it by trading picks/prospects could get there.

This post is proof that you have nothing to add to this conversation besides belittling DL. That is great and all and I can make fun of people with the best of them but it really adds nothing. We know what DL has done wrong. It has been talked about ad naseum but believe it or not, if even you believe that trading some picks for current players will make this team a contender, DL has done something right. And I'd like to know what type of players the Kings would need to add to make this team a contender. Do I have to pry all this info from you or are you just having a difficult time figuring out what this team needs?


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what is the goal? I have no idea.
Really? Because I coudl have sworn I've seen you post it about 4 times already. You really are a piece of work.

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Old
11-08-2011, 12:17 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
one of us will be vindicated. my position is that the talent is just not there and that DL must be held accountable for that.

If Penner suddenly starts scoring and Williams/Gagne stay healthy and the bottom six suddenly becomes legit and the defense gets more consistent than both DL and TM will look like geniuses.

we'll see.
See this is my problem with you. Your comment about one of us being vindicated is your agenda. That is what this is about to you. This isn't about the Kings or DL, it is about who is right or wrong and you take the easy bet which is betting against the Kings. We all know their lousy history and you are part of it.

We've established that we are holding DL accountable for this mediocre/poor start this season and what he hasn't accomplished here. Got that. You've reitirated it over and over and I'm not sure why you feel the need to continue ramming it down our throats.

Now that we've established that, please enlighten us how we get to the promised land.

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11-08-2011, 12:19 PM
  #63
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Now YOU are turning the discussion. The expectations from MANY fans (and media) was that the Kings would legitimately challenge for the SC this year. Is that no longer the case?
Maybe reread the thread if you think your discussions are the jist of what this thread is about.

As for expectations, yes, I still feel the team can vye for a cup this year. It doesn't matter what we think though, it matters what DL thinks. A lot of pieces were added late last season and in the off-season, and how those guys were expected to pan out on paper isn't how they have on the ice in some case (Penner for example). If DL feels that some minor retooling is needed and they are best to make their big push next year, he's fine to do so. Like I said, we have the core in place to build around for the next decade before we have to consider rebuilding.

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Old
11-08-2011, 12:30 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
You didn't but you made an indication that the only way to salvage the season was to trade high value prospects and picks so I was being sarcastic. I thought you of all people would have a sarcasm detector.
Sarcasm does not become you.



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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Yes I did and if you'd like me to pull up my post where I suggested Arnott as an upgrade, I'll try and locate it for you. I didn't think Stoll would be this bad but he is.
No need to locate it.


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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I thought you just said the expectations were SC contenders? You can't be serious. You've now twice suggested that the Kings need to move futures to acquire talent to make this team a contender. That suggests to me that you believe the team does have enough talent within the roster to contend and supplanting it by trading picks/prospects could get there.
oh boy...where to start. What I said were that fan/media expectations are that this is a SC caliber team. The team is now 6-5-3 and slumping. Yes it is early but it is clear that there are many question marks on the roster. The Kings don't have surpluses of good players on the NHL roster which would allow them to trade a good roster player for another good roster player in order to fill a hole. How are you going to get another top 6 winger? Either trade JJ or a high end prospect/pick. There are no other options at this point. If you are content to just make the playoffs then leave things alone. IF you are going for the SC this year then you need to make a move.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
This post is proof that you have nothing to add to this conversation besides belittling DL. That is great and all and I can make fun of people with the best of them but it really adds nothing. We know what DL has done wrong. It has been talked about ad naseum but believe it or not, if even you believe that trading some picks for current players will make this team a contender, DL has done something right. And I'd like to know what type of players the Kings would need to add to make this team a contender. Do I have to pry all this info from you or are you just having a difficult time figuring out what this team needs?
Glad we can at least agree that DL has made some mistakes. See above for trading picks/prospects. In terms of improving, they need more offense and more grit. How do you get that? I don't know. Other GM's won't give their assets away.


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Really? Because I coudl have sworn I've seen you post it about 4 times already. You really are a piece of work.
No Christmas card from you this year?? I'm bummed.

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11-08-2011, 12:33 PM
  #65
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Last week the team was 4th in the Western Conference and now they hit a little skid and have slipped to 8th. Hardly worth hitting the panic button over.
^ This

I know that this board is pretty damn critical of every little detail. I swear that people would still complain if we went 82-0. Hell, i remember last season, when half the board was whining about Kopitars play. In pro sports, every team hits rough patches during the long seasons. Sometimes the bounces just dont go your way.

I hope people realize that we made some drastic changes over the summer and it will take time to learn each others tendencies (particulary the 2nd and 3rd lines). Richards has shown his all around play, but anyone playing with Brown needs a pass. Brown is a little unpredictable on his positioning, and until Richards learns where he will be, it might be hard to generate 1st line quality offense (especially matched against the other teams top lines.)

What i have seen in the past few games is pretty good. Even though most of you have been complaining about Drew, he played a quiet all around game (basically taking TMs advice on not doing too much). His uncanny ability to spring the forwards with his outlet passes opens up so much for the rush. JJ has improved so much on the D side, but still needs to work on his D positioning at times. I dont even need to go over Kopitars play, but he is someone i think is a franchise player.

I have always said that TMs system is a little too safe as the F3 is always hanging out at the blue line. Lokti was a perfect example of why i somewhat disagree with TMs too safe system. He started to drift down a little into the scoring areas and created some opportunities, only to get benched. He wasnt that far out of position to fail on a d assignment (from what i saw...i might be wrong). Sometimes it always looks like the kings are playing 2 vs 3 downlow, and like most people say, they just jam up the middle so the points cant take shots or generate anything from the back end.

I also have noticed that TM gave Kopitar the green light on the forecheck, as I believe he has Gagne playing the F3 position alot (a majority of the time from what i have observed), so it frees Kopi up to steal pucks on the forecheck (which he is doing).

The biggest beef i have is will Stoll- the guy simply isnt a good center in the NHL today. He has zero playmaking ability and doesnt see the ice at all. I said it last year that Stoll's D awareness is not close to what Zues was for a 3rd line shutdown center. I still think he would make a good wing, as he is fast on the forecheck and has a good shot. Lokti at center with him at the wing would be worth a shot (like some people have mentioned already). If he learned to play a wing and get to the sweet spots with his shot, with a playmaking center feeding him...it could be a good thing for both the players and the team. People might give me crap for this, but the current 3rd line is not a shutdown line, so if we were to add some skill there, we could potentially run 2 1st lines and a 2nd line (Lokti,Stoll, and someone like Comeau-until clifford is ready to step it up).

Just my 2 cents, but ill give it until december before i go in WTF mode.

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11-08-2011, 12:34 PM
  #66
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Now that we've established that, please enlighten us how we get to the promised land.
Irrelevant. The important thing here is that tomd is right and the Kings suck. We're all here with the hopes that they never win anything so that a few people on the internet can say "I told you so."

Good times.

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11-08-2011, 12:37 PM
  #67
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What solutions should I offer?
I think a musical dance number would brighten everyone's day.


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11-08-2011, 12:39 PM
  #68
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How many teams have 6 30-goal scorers in their top 6? Lombardi has brought in the pieces, it's up to the coaching staff to get the most out of the roster.

Until Murray is replaced, we have no idea what this team is capable of. The players have changed dramatically in the 3+ years of Murray, yet the offense hasn't improved and has gotten worse since teams have scouted the Kings and they are easy to defend. How many more players can we blame for the issues before Murray is let go?

Penner-Kopitar-Williams
Gagne-Richards-Brown
Clifford-Stoll-Lewis
Moreau-Richardson-Parse/Hunter/Westgarth

Mitchell-Doughty
Scuderi-Johnson
Martinez-Greene

After 14 games, that lineup should not be only scoring 2.14 goals per game.

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11-08-2011, 12:41 PM
  #69
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Irrelevant. The important thing here is that tomd is right and the Kings suck. We're all here with the hopes that they never win anything so that a few people on the internet can say "I told you so."

Good times.
sigh...there is a difference between "kings suck" and saying that this team isn't as good as everyone thought it would be at the start of the season. There are holes...BIG ONES...that DL is directly responsible for.

Those who only blame the coach (most of you) are missing the bigger issue (IMO). Scotty Bowman couldn't get much more out of Penner or the bottom six than TM is getting. Is that his fault or the GM? I say the GM.

But hey, if you are happy with what DL has put together than I am happy for you. Don't expect to see hockey in mid May at the Staples Center any time soon though.

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11-08-2011, 12:44 PM
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sigh...there is a difference between "kings suck" and saying that this team isn't as good as everyone thought it would be at the start of the season. There are holes...BIG ONES...that DL is directly responsible for.

Those who only blame the coach (most of you) are missing the bigger issue (IMO). Scotty Bowman couldn't get much more out of Penner or the bottom six than TM is getting. Is that his fault or the GM? I say the GM.

But hey, if you are happy with what DL has put together than I am happy for you. Don't expect to see hockey in mid May at the Staples Center any time soon though.
Hyperbole much? You're talking about the same Dustin Penner who has proved to be a consistent 20+ goal scorer in this league.

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11-08-2011, 12:44 PM
  #71
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oh boy...where to start. What I said were that fan/media expectations are that this is a SC caliber team. The team is now 6-5-3 and slumping. Yes it is early but it is clear that there are many question marks on the roster. The Kings don't have surpluses of good players on the NHL roster which would allow them to trade a good roster player for another good roster player in order to fill a hole. How are you going to get another top 6 winger? Either trade JJ or a high end prospect/pick. There are no other options at this point. If you are content to just make the playoffs then leave things alone. IF you are going for the SC this year then you need to make a move.

Glad we can at least agree that DL has made some mistakes. See above for trading picks/prospects. In terms of improving, they need more offense and more grit. How do you get that? I don't know. Other GM's won't give their assets away.

No Christmas card from you this year?? I'm bummed.
Well I completely disagree that the Kings biggest need is another winger. The Kings have enough skill on the wings. They need a coach who can maximize what is on the roster and a defensive upgrade over Stoll to take the heat off of Richards.

Believe me, ever since the summertime when you ridiculed Mike Richards as a player only to have praised him just weeks prior to the trade as the type of player that "wins you Cups" told me everything I need to know about you. That was hypocrisy at its finest.

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11-08-2011, 12:48 PM
  #72
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sigh...there is a difference between "kings suck" and saying that this team isn't as good as everyone thought it would be at the start of the season. There are holes...BIG ONES...that DL is directly responsible for.

Those who only blame the coach (most of you) are missing the bigger issue (IMO). Scotty Bowman couldn't get much more out of Penner or the bottom six than TM is getting. Is that his fault or the GM? I say the GM.

But hey, if you are happy with what DL has put together than I am happy for you. Don't expect to see hockey in mid May at the Staples Center any time soon though.
Are you capable of making a post without being condescending?

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11-08-2011, 12:48 PM
  #73
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sigh...there is a difference between "kings suck" and saying that this team isn't as good as everyone thought it would be at the start of the season. There are holes...BIG ONES...that DL is directly responsible for.

Those who only blame the coach (most of you) are missing the bigger issue (IMO). Scotty Bowman couldn't get much more out of Penner or the bottom six than TM is getting. Is that his fault or the GM? I say the GM.

But hey, if you are happy with what DL has put together than I am happy for you. Don't expect to see hockey in mid May at the Staples Center any time soon though.
Ok you just got done telling us the biggest hole is on the wings and more grit. Can you please elaborate on all of these other new (since your last post on the subject) holes that DL created and need to be filled?

Seriously, why do I need to pry this information from you? It should be readily available since it is clear as day to you and none of us. We could benefit from your knowledge and you are making me beg for it. You know I don't like that, tom.

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11-08-2011, 12:54 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
oh boy...where to start. What I said were that fan/media expectations are that this is a SC caliber team. The team is now 6-5-3 and slumping. Yes it is early but it is clear that there are many question marks on the roster. The Kings don't have surpluses of good players on the NHL roster which would allow them to trade a good roster player for another good roster player in order to fill a hole. How are you going to get another top 6 winger? Either trade JJ or a high end prospect/pick. There are no other options at this point. If you are content to just make the playoffs then leave things alone. IF you are going for the SC this year then you need to make a move.
This would be a last resort, but in Voynov the Kings do have a player that can step in if it became necessary to move a player like Johnson to get a serious upgrade on the wing.

The other options at this point are:

1) be patient and let guys like Toffoli and Vey develop.

2) bring up Loktionov and move Stoll to RW and see if the added offense in the bottom six changes the dynamic of the team

To be honest after last year's playoffs I was expecting a lot more from Richardson, Lewis, and Clifford in terms of offense and I think Lombardi was as well. No reason to believe that they were not capable based on their performance in the playoffs last season.

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11-08-2011, 12:54 PM
  #75
KingPurpleDinosaur
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
I've discussed the first three.

Williams and Gagne? They are supposed to be the "core" that DL talked about for the next 5-10 years? Really???

Bernier...his next win will be his first this year. Technically, DL would admit that this was an Al Murray pick anyway since he has just been hired prior to the draft.

Voynov and Loktionov? why are they buried in the minors...still???
Funny that you would wash out or belittle DL's picks, but then complain when DL "buries them in the minors". Because, yes, his picks are that good.

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