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GameNight Thread: Carolina Hurricanes vs. SJ Sharks - Oct. 28, 2003

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Old
10-29-2003, 10:20 AM
  #51
Patty Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Tiburones
You guys are starting to sound like me...
I know I was the one who got scolded for the thread that stated it might be best for the Sharks to lose this year.
I've been carryin that sentiment for awhile now, since before the last draft, but I thought it woudn't be a reality cuz the Sharks do look like a team that can make the playoffs on paper. The season is young and there is a chance to turnaround but if they keep up this hapless play, I wont be mad at all.

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10-29-2003, 10:43 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kevin Wey
While watching Joe Thornton mature into one of the NHL's future superstars, I can't help but feel that Marleau is a failure, considering the expectations. How many years in a row do fans, or Marleau's teammates, have to hear about how the youngsters need to step it up?
My sentiments exactly. Sharksfinatic can probably remember the bashing I used to lay on Marleau on the old board, eh? Patty is nothing he was projected to be, and never will be. He will never consistently put up points in his career. Maybe a few 70+ point seasons in the future on another team, but he will never be a dominating scoring forward in the NHL.

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10-29-2003, 11:44 AM
  #53
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Zyuzin has found a home in Minnesota and does well. Kozlov is, again, among the forward leaders in Florida. Ray Whitney has had a pretty decent career. Sandis Ozolinsh has been rather distinguished. Arturs Irbe had some distinction. I would say there have been some Sharks who seemed to stall in San Jose who developed elsewhere. (It took some of them a while to do it too.) We'll see where Friesen ends up long-term.

Developing superstars isn't too common and San Jose has produced a lot of decent players. The one with the most impact has probably been Ozolinsh. (There was a reason my first reaction was a few swear words when he got traded.) Sandis isn't a superstar, but he is a star. (Anaheim's defense really chipped in offensively last night, as it seems Anaheim is already turning things around behind Martin Gerber...I really like Martin, and not just because he's Swiss, but it doesn't hurt )

Nabokov seemed on track to being really good, but...and this may be a Philly situation, where goaltending isn't really to blame. I certainly never hold goaltending solely responsible for anything.

Is Detroit developing superstar youngsters? I don't rate Zetterberg and Datsyuk has stars yet, let alone. Even teams that are really bad for a long time like Tampa sometimes only develop two drafted stars: Lecavalier and Richards. How about Florida? No drafted superstars come to my mind.

I sometimes wonder if the Sharks' offensively gifted prospects haven't ended up like Vlastimil Kroupa: lacking confidence in damn near anything they do, always second-guessing. Kroupa wasn't destined to be great or anything, but...he didn't always have such indecisive passing.

Anyway, right now, some of the Sharks who people are considering "busts" (Kozlov, Zyuzin, etc) aren't doing too bad. I'll never understand the lack of confidence San Jose had in Whitney, he was one of, and still is one of, my favorities. Kozlov and Zyuzin are both Russian, so...we know how that worked under Sutter, who can't claim Sergei Krivokrasov as a success anymore.

Like Wayne Gretzky said before the Olympics: We're not going to make superstars play like checking line players.

Pat Falloon: In all honesty, had Pat Falloon not separated his shoulder in 1992, I suspect his career would have gone differently, having been named to the NHL All-Star team as San Jose's representative. Instead, he separated his shoulder and Kisio went to Montreal. Falloon could flat out shoot and with a little more off-ice mentoring (weightlifting, reducing the drinking), I think Falloon could have been a semi-star for a long time. Going to the All-Star Game would have been a great experience for Falloon. Grillo told me Falloon never regained full mobility in his shoulder, and lacking confidence in a shoulder doesn't generally create confidence in the corners. That said, had Falloon been better conditioned, maybe he wouldn't have suffered the shoulder separation...

Rathje seems lost without Sutter. I wonder if San Jose shouldn't trade him to Calgary for Rhett Warrener and some other player. (Warrener would add a real physical dimension, since McLaren doesn't seem interested.)

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10-29-2003, 12:02 PM
  #54
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The one thing that has really spoken volumes to me about Rat this season may seem like a little thing, but it really cheesed me off when I saw it. It was in the game against the Coyotes, tied with about 55 seconds left in regulation, the Yotes dump it down for icing, and Rat just casually skates back to touch up. I felt compelled to yell "Hustle you F***ing Lummox" at the tv, not something I usually do. That was a situation to me the personified his surrender. There are plenty of other exapmles, but that was one where it was just him and the clock and the puck and he didn't make any extra effort.

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10-29-2003, 12:12 PM
  #55
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RE: Marleau, I think it's also a case of horrible linemates for the player. Admittedly, Patty needs to step up and lead the team (especially with physicality, which is something he can do, but doesn't, and especially on nights that he's not scoring), but that said, he's a sniper, and one that needs a passer to set him up. Who is the best passer on the team? Damphousse? Ick. Who is the best passer on his line? Primeau? Sturm? I'm sorry, but if those are his passers, you've got to expect a 25-30 goal year from him, tops.

Another part of why SJ has developed no real stars is two-fold. (A) The entire draft philosophy has sucked since the beginning of time. Burke, sadly, is the best SJ has had, and IMO he sucks, flat out. You all know my opinion of him, by now. (B) When SJ has a chance to draft someone great (see Pronger), the pick is either dealt away or given to injury problems (see Stuey). Stupid management and bad luck are to blame. (Does one lead to another?)

Add to that a fan base that is as jaded as any in the NHL, and you've got a horrible situation from top to bottom. Seriously, are there any Sharks fans that didn't see this as a rebuild year? Yet, you continue to bad mouth the kids. You don't think it's ironic that guys like Rathje have no confidence, do you? You don't think that Marleau can't hear the groans and doesn't grip the stick a bit tighter because of it, do you? Bay Area fans were spoiled in the '80's, with Run-TMC in Oakland, the Niners in SF, and the A's and Giants in baseball. Since then, we seem to have forgotten how horrible the Niners were before Montana. We forget that Oakland stunk before the three Rookies of the Year in a row. We've become Red Wings fans, who have forgotten that Detroit gave away cars in the early-80's to draw people to the game, and we don't even have a Cup here in SJ.

If you think this ship will turn around without a serious look in the mirror, you must be asleep, because you're dreaming.

Thank goodness I'm not a Sharks fan.

~Crazed.

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10-29-2003, 02:53 PM
  #56
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Are drafting sucks? lol ok.

I think it's one of the Sharks strengths. Now going way back yes we missed some guys, no questions. But it was mostly of bad luck, How can you blame the Sharks for taking Faloon? Kozlov? at the time they sounded like and looked like the best guys.

I think are 2003 draft class is a doozie. Michalek is going to suprise with is offense, Bernier is could be the next Shanahan, Hennessy is as fast as Sturm but even smarter offensivly, no where near defensivly though, I think we got steals in Pavelski and Hospolt and Definitly in Ehelechner. I love what i've seen out of Morris last year in two games, I saw Spang two times as well and was just as impressed.

I think we need one stud. Michalek woudlve been perfect linemates for Marleau and Sturm but he's hurt. Boyes mabey?

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10-29-2003, 03:22 PM
  #57
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OK, Max, would you like proof that SJ's draft philosophy has sucked? How about goals...we'll go with goal-scoring. (Granted, a weak analogy between goal-scoring and having a good draft system, but a case could be made, still.)

San Jose has drafted only 2 30-goal scorers, and both did it in only one year.

Ray Whitney, 32 with Florida in '97-'98 (the year he left SJ).
Jeff Friesen, 31 with SJ in '97-'98.

This is THIRTY goals, not 40, 50, or 80, like in the 80's. We're talking 30 goals.

Time to take off the teal coloured glasses. SJ isn't alone, but the drafting has sucked here.

You can be as excited as you want to be over recent draftees, but until they're proven, you'll have to show me why SJ's draft system is good. Until then, SJ's draft system always has sucked, and continues to do so today.

~Crazed.

PS. Would you rather we go with passing? +/-? We could go straight to the end, and count Cup wins, if you'd like.

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10-29-2003, 03:56 PM
  #58
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How far did Whitney and the Panthers get in 98? How far did the Sharks go in 98? First round of playoffs. WOW!
Theres more to just putting goals in the net Crazed. 94% of the time the player does not have the puck on his stick. It takes alot more then just some goals. Sharks lately have been drafting the kind of player that they wish every player in there system was a mold of.

Sturm, Morris, Goc, Michalek. Now Michaleks skill put him in a different offensive catagory then the other three, but he still plays a good two way game. Sharks traded for Boyes, guess what he can do? Play good away from the puck, Guess what Primeau can do? Guess what McCaulley can do? Sharks like those kind of players. They never been about having a Federov type of player. The guy on are team to score the most points was a powerforward for christ sake. If the Sharks wanted a pure goal scorer we wouldve traded up and taken Robert Niellson instead of taking Bernier. I think the sharks mold of a player they like is somone who can play good both ways. Matt Carle, Dan Spang passed two years we took these guys in the 2nd round. Not the most flashy players, but there pretty dang good on both ends. I think is a great way of going by things.

Also how many other teams have so many of there past draftees either on the roster or in the farm system like the Sharks do? Ottawa mabey?

I think we can go around and most would agree with me that the Sharks are a good drafting team.

PIXXX Note: edited for deleting unnecessary material

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10-29-2003, 04:10 PM
  #59
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Old
10-29-2003, 05:15 PM
  #60
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You can defend SJ drafting all you want to. Fact of the matter is that the point of the game is to score more goals than the opposition. Through its history, SJ has proven that it can't do that, most especially with those drafted by the club. Thus, SJ is a horrible drafting club.

For a good one, see Ottawa, Colorado (with Quebec drafting, as well), or New Jersey. (Detroit's major successes were before SJ was in the league, but they're another good drafting team, for the most part, especially after the 1st Round.) Is it ironic that SJ hasn't gotten past the 2nd Round, while the others all have, and other than Ottawa, have won Cups?

SJ isn't alone in its drafting woes. There are many teams that have drafted junk, as well. That said, it's no secret what you need to win a Cup. Draft first, trade second, and sign third, in that order. Until you can draft, don't hope for a Cup.

Michalek was a good pick. IMO Stuart and Marleau were good picks. Add Hannan and Cheechoo to that list. That said, good picks don't win Cups, while great ones do. When have the Sharks made a great pick? Michalek was a slam dunk. (SJ would have traded down to get Suter, I've heard.) Stuart was traded for, and that's debatable, since SJ could have had Legwand. Marleau, Hannan, and Cheechoo have yet to hit their stride, while others in their draft classes have. Closest SJ has is Bernier, and if you compare his camp to any random power forward prospect (let's guess Anthony Stewart, who almost made Florida out of camp), it's not that special a pick.

SJ's drafting is possibly the most overrated draft system in the NHL. Sad, but true. Lots of borderline NHL talent (including Boyes, who you seem to have something for), but nothing that has scored much, yet, and very little with any chance to do so in the future.

Though we often disagree about what SJ is and what SJ can/will become, I've got to stand behind Kevin in his ratings. There are a ton of "maybe's" here, but no great things.

You can look at it any way you want to, but the results are on the board nightly. No matter how you look at it, the best players to wear teal were drafted by other players, and when SJ loses most of them, it crashes down to Earth, because the team can't draft. If it could, SJ would be a winning team, not the 1-5-3 garbage that it is.

~Crazed.

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Old
10-29-2003, 06:24 PM
  #61
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Homer mabey, Crazed you make good points, But I still think Tim Burke and his boys do a great job.

By saying Michalek is a slam dunk? you mean you really liked the pick right? I say he has some Peter Forseberg in him. Could be as good IMO if he gets agressive, witch he's starting to , and shoots more, witch hes starting to

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10-29-2003, 06:47 PM
  #62
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Peter Forsberg?! First you compare Bernier to Shanny, now Michalek to Foppa?! You must be out of your flippin' mind!

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10-29-2003, 07:11 PM
  #63
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Great Picks: Sandis Ozolinsh. (Partially considering where he was drafted, but he's made the most impact of any Shark pick ever in my opinion.)

One thing about the Pronger/Kozlov thing: Let's not forget that Chris Pronger was in trouble before Mike Keenan straightened him out. Had Pronger been in San Jose, he might have been nothing more than an aggressive Michal Sykora. Kozlov has become a really good player, but he does have some injury problems. Nothing like concussions, but he's had injury problems ever since he tore his ankle up pretty bad a few months after he was drafted. Gotta wonder if his groin problems go back to compensating for rehabing ankle. It happens. Kozlov is a superior player to Patrick Marleau. (Kozlov can actually create offense, and has developed into a decent defensive player.)

Darryl Sutter may have cost San Jose more than one Russian. He was good with North American grinders and defensemen, but not so good at developing scorers, especially if they weren't from North America, but especially as their homeland approached the Volga River.

Thirty-goal scorers: How many 30-goal seasons did Adam Oates have? I also don't think you'd judge Brad Richards by that either. Plus, for a long time, Markus Naslund appeared to be a failure. There is hope. (Although you can only live on hope so long.)

While I understand your points Crazed, I don't agree that San Jose's drafting sucks, especially lately. Only now are some of the more recent draft's players coming to the AHL and NHL. I still love San Jose's defense prospects, most especially the puckmoving abilities of many of them, including the undrafted Tom Preissing and Josh Gorges. Years after Sandis was traded, there's hope at last. I don't fault the goalies much, that's not my nature. I've only seen a few Shark games where I got frustrated only with the goaltending.

At this point, players like Marleau have to be allowed to just play hockey. The same is true of Korolyuk and Dimitrakos really. Steve Yzerman wasn't awesome defensively to begin with. Mario Lemieux still sucks defensively. Gretzky was never that good defensively either. And why should he have been? Let the scorers go out and score and put guys like Marco Sturm, or in the future Marcel Goc, on their line. I just hate it when scorers are attempted to be molded into checkers, and you get something that's neither an acceptable checker or acceptable scorer anymore. (Marleau, Korolyuk, probably Dimitrakos if the Sharks aren't careful.) If guys show an interest in defense, like say DiSalvatore, great, but to force it on them... Another example: Modano wasn't a Selke candidate from day one, that's for damn sure.

The Sharks play not to lose it seems. The only guys who don't play this way are the guys who haven't been Sharks too long: new acquisitions or prospects. (I just can't believe the difference in offensive confidence last March between Dimitrakos and the normal Sharks. It was sad actually, watching Dimitrakos show-up Selanne, and we know that doesn't come down to talent.)

The only thing Boston really changed about Thornton was his diet and weighttraining habits. Otherwise, they kind of let him play and learn the hard way. His first season sucked compared to Marleau...I suppose the fact when somebody is as ultratalented as Thornton, who didn't train and diet from the get go who's already great probably has a higher upside. (Am I talking about Bernier? No I don't think he'll equal Thornton. We can hope maybe.) Marleau was pretty fit from the get-go. San Jose prospects generally are. Does this mean they top out sooner? That said, drafting entirely unfit players isn't safe. Bernier's going to be an interesting experiment, especially compared to Michalek, who is a prototypical mature first round Shark pick.

I guess in closing, San Jose's recent picks may not all be exciting ultra-talented players, but they do have the character and drive that I like in prospects. (Although 2003 was different, Bernier is a new experiment, and Hennessy is more of a skating-based prospect. But Michalek and Carle are classic Shark first-day picks.) As Rocky told Tommy Gunn in Rocky V, "Heart and fire." That's what most of the Minnesota Wild was last year. Hard work and determination are larger factors in success than talent. I like the combination of character and skill San Jose has coming through the system.

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10-29-2003, 07:26 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-SHARKIE
By saying Michalek is a slam dunk? you mean you really liked the pick right?
My opinion of Michalek is well-known, at this point. I'd have taken him first Overall in '03. (I must admit, though, that Fluery's game has translated better than I thought it would, and right now, anyways, Staal and Horton both look good.) He was a slam dunk because he was the best player on the board when SJ stepped to the mic, no matter what our friends at TSN seemed to think. That's related to '04's 1st Overall. Anyone who gets it would be dumb, at this point, not to snatch Ovechkin...hardly great drafting, and IMO Ovechkin won't push any horrid team to a Cup anyways (though he'll be an important cog...think Howe without Lindsay, for example...or Lindsay without Howe), so it's somewhat a moot point. It'll take great drafting to get that team a Cup, either way, which brings us back to our success model of draft, trade, then sign.

Kevin, I'd agree that Ozo was probably the best Sharks pick, but what does that really say about SJ's drafting? (...and coaching, and...well...you get the point.) (Sadly, IMO Nabokov is a close 2nd-best.)

Admittedly, part of that is the fact that all of SJ's drafts have, for the most part, been dead drafts. With birth rates for the draft classes rising (along with talent level in most countries going up with exposure to hockey), the talent level is rising, as well. The next few drafts look amazing, and they'll tell the story, IMO. If SJ can't pull some great draft picks out of the next couple of drafts, it will be a long, long time before SJ gets a Cup. (See Toronto, who hasn't had a superstar draftee since the 1970's, if that.)

Unfortunately for the Sharks, they can't just be drafting great players, but they need to have drafts better than the other 29 NHL teams, which will be quite difficult to do, since the talent level for them is rising, too. It's going to be fun to watch, either way.

~Crazed.

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10-29-2003, 09:17 PM
  #65
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I've seen Bernier play 6 times now Von, I really think offensvily he could be the next Shanny, with a Todd Bertuzzi like attitude. Michalek is like Scott Hannan witch he has no weaknesses, But where Scott is just good at things, Michalek is excelent at most. He can stick handle with the best of them. He can do it at full speeds to. I think if he plays more physical, witch the coaches well tell him to, and if he shoots more he could be the next Peter Foresberg. Now Peter has a natural scorers touch and Michalek doesnt. So i'm not expecting those kind of numbers. But could Michalek be the MVP of the Sharks when he's older? I think so.

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10-30-2003, 12:29 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Shark
My sentiments exactly. Sharksfinatic can probably remember the bashing I used to lay on Marleau on the old board, eh? Patty is nothing he was projected to be, and never will be. He will never consistently put up points in his career. Maybe a few 70+ point seasons in the future on another team, but he will never be a dominating scoring forward in the NHL.

HaHa I sure do. Boy did you take some flac for that, probably from me too . I still have hope for the guy, but must admit I've lowered my expectations. Also, I do not feel he is untouchable as I once felt and I would not be crushed to see him go for the right deal. However, I do feel that it is just the sharks luck that as soon as we trade him, he starts lighting it up. But then maybe that would prove what we both have been saying for quite some time about our pathetic development "system".

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10-30-2003, 12:46 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharksfanatic
But then maybe that would prove what we both have been saying for quite some time about our pathetic development "system".
He's never really been in the development system. Blame the head coaches instead.

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10-30-2003, 01:29 PM
  #68
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If Marleau came threw the AHL ect. Then you can say we suck at it. But if anything we have a great devolopment system, Are AHL and other minor league affiliates have been great for players to improve there game. Marleau isnt done yet folks, either is Stuart, Either is Hannan.

Hello Patty and Stuart are only 23 yrs old!! Still gotta mature mentally. Were only 9 games into the season and you are already freaking out.
Rathjes been one of are best defensman but just because he's not a rookie we say trade him? Bah. :moon: I moon you

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10-30-2003, 02:37 PM
  #69
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Correction: Rathje <b>was</b> one of San Jose's best defensemen. His identity crisis cost Jesse Fibiger his NHL career. This sounds harsh, but poor Fibiger, just watch the games when Fibiger paid the price for Rathje's errors (last season). Fibiger was a scapegoat if you ask me. It's too bad too, because Fibiger has good skating skills and is generally a decent defenseman overall. He'll probably end up playing in Europe in the near future making more money than he does now. (Germany perhaps? Although Russia is taking more non-Slavic players nowadays, and there are some teams in Russia that pay quite well. In fact, I don't know how they do it.)

Why guys like McLaren and Rathje are expendable: Because when players like Ehrhoff are in the system, who can easily match what Rathje's doing right now for less than half the cost, who needs defensemen with identity crises? If McLaren doesn't want to play physical, Rob Davison will. If if that fails, Doug Murray can work on his skating at the NHL level and throw his weight around. Add the fact that Rathje isn't really a leader, so when he's playing bad, what good is he?

From a salary-trade point of view, I bet San Jose could trade Rathje and Harvey to Calgary for Rhett Warrener and Oleg Saprykin. (Saprykin and Harvey help even out the salary exchange for these two cost conscious teams.) When Warrener was with Boston, he was a really good physical defenseman.

I'm not really promoting that trade, but it's just an idea to toss around.

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