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Coburn signs multi-year contract extension (details in post #238, per the Daily News)

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Old
11-09-2011, 04:47 PM
  #201
Jester
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
There is no point in arguing this. This board will not be satisfied unless every contract/trade is a steal. There is no such thing as a good contract. It is either an overpayment (like the shocking $755k to Lilja) or an absolute steal. There is no in between on this board. Ever. For anything.
There you go dealing in extremes that just aren't true. Don't know anyone that didn't like Girouxs deal, and it was viewed as a fair deal... Not a steal.

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11-09-2011, 04:49 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I think the construction of the Flyers D-corps takes away a lot from Coburn's offensive numbers. Every year the Flyers have brought in someone who eats away at Coburn's offensive opportunities (first Carle, then Pronger, then Meszaros). Coburn's offensive numbers are going down not because his skills are diminishing in his prime, but because his responsibilities have been shifted towards doing more and more defensive heavy lifting. ES + PK time has gone up while PP time has gone almost down to 0.
By NHL standards, he's never really put up points... Even in juniors his numbers are modest.

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11-09-2011, 05:05 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Volchenkov, who is far better defensively than Coburn.
Kaberle, though he didnt have a great year last year.

Much of Coburn's value is derived from getting to play with better players. Now, I don't dislike Coburn per se, but he's also looked like **** when paired with anyone other than Timonen most of the time.
Volchenkov signed for 6 years at 25.5 million. Last year he sucked and so did the Devils. This year he is OK, but is a fair comparison. So....om....what? Kaberle signed the identical deal. Are we in agreement? I said find deals under 4 million per?
P.S. Much has chagned since July 1, 2010

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11-09-2011, 05:09 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
There you go dealing in extremes that just aren't true. Don't know anyone that didn't like Girouxs deal, and it was viewed as a fair deal... Not a steal.
Maybe a little overstatement, but for the most part the threads on this board are either people about to jump off the Walt Whitman Bridge (or calling for someone to be fired, traded, tarred/feather) or people planning a parade.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:12 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You expect Bryz to be an outlier, then? That seems foolish. 5.6 will be an awful lot of money when he's 37, and like almost EVERY 37 year old goalie, isn't worth anywhere near 5.6...and we can't get rid of him because he's still making 5 million dollars AND has a NMC. As for Gomez...one bad skater at a high price has far less impact than one bad goalie at a high price. A bad goalie can single handedly lose games easier than a forward can...and if he isn't playing to lose games, he's just dead cap weight. Gomez can at least contribute in some way. It actually would have been better to pay Bryz a little more just to shorten his contract.

On the Briere contract, I never really had too much trouble with it. I thought he had earned it with his monster season, so citing that at me isn't terribly relevant.
It's almost like beef (along with the other Homer-Haters) WANT bryz to fail so that their hatred for homer will be justified.



wait.



thats exactly what it is




When in fact, Homer is turning out to be a quirky genius who makes unorthodox but effective moves.

ain't that a *****...




(there are also so many factors that we know NOTHING about inside the locker room, so people here don't have enough information to argue against a modest increase. In fact attacking him here is just disrespectful and immature.)

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:14 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
How so? I showed ALL the recent contacts since last off-season for D-men. NOBODY has signed for less than 4 million, except Luke Schenn, who is an RFA who is a 5-6 at this point. So.....how was my statment "clearly wrong". We are talking about 2011 contracts for legit top 4 d-men, find me 1 example of someone who is signing for less?

Going back to July 1ish:
Josh Georges signed RFA 2.5M 1 year after his injury year.
Kaberle 12.75 million for 3 years
Yandle got 5.1 for 5 years
Hamrlik got 3.5M Per
Lidstrom 6.2M
Markov 5.5M
Eric Brewer 4 Million
Kevin Bieksa 4.1
Pitkanen 4.5M


Who am I missing that makes my statement clearly wrong? That goes back to July 1?
You missed the worst signing:

Quote:
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...-million-deal/

Wisniewski’s deal comes in at a cap hit of $5.5 million per year for the next six years and for a guy who had his first real offensive breakout season last year scoring ten goals and adding 41 assists, he’s cashing in when the market was ripest for him. With solid free agent defensive choices being minimal on the open market, Wisniewski’s stock was at its highest. The Blue Jackets knew this right away and set their sights on him acquiring his rights to negotiate with him. It paid off for Columbus and it has more than paid off now for Wisniewski as he’s one of the best paid blue liners in the league.
Seriously, if you ask any knowledgeable fan of another team, they realize how important and how good Coburn is.

Two seasons ago, we made it to the Finals playing only 4D and with Leighton/Boucher in net! Frankly, the main reason we ended up losing was that Pronger and Kimmo were hurt and worn down. Only Carle and Coby had any legs left at all by game 6.

And yet people slag Carle and Coburn? Why? They are both excellent players who deserve to be paid more than the entire list above of crappy Dmen (Lidstrom and Yandle excepted). Markov is great but he's ALWAYS hurt. Kaberle? Old and crap. Wiz? Younger and crap.

I don't know what this means for Carle (either walk as UFA, trade rights before draft or sign and trade Meszaros) but I can't see either him or Mez being dealt before the deadline. Carle can make a killing next summer as a UFA, depending on what else happens.

Coburn is a very solid citizen, committed to fitness and the Flyers, who I think will prove to have given us a hometown discount when next year's UFA season wraps up, if it's anything like last year's. He just got married last year and had a baby during this season.

Be happy people, we just made a great signing.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:18 PM
  #207
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THE TEAM IS RUINED! No but seriously. I like the deal. Over payment by a tiny bit, but at least he's locked up as a piece for the future.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:20 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Look, it is what it is: an UFA deal for a D. However, to argue that it is justifiable because everyone makes that much simply isn't true, and that's without getting into comparing Coburn to other guys.

The other factor, which no one has mentioned to defend the deal, is that it's 4 years as opposed to 10.then he resigns for less?

Thank God for that.
something tells me you've never taken negotiations before

"objective criteria"


...you have to pay 1 employee of similar characteristics comparable to other employees of similar characteristics.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:21 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by DeflatedFootball7 View Post
THE TEAM IS RUINED! No but seriously. I like the deal. Over payment by a tiny bit, but at least he's locked up as a piece for the future.
I agree, it also protects us from having to raise his price more when he has a beastly post-season

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11-09-2011, 05:22 PM
  #210
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Some fans are just never happy. They ***** when you bring someone back for a reasonable price, and they would ***** about the new defensemen who comes in to replace him.

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11-09-2011, 05:31 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Volchenkov signed for 6 years at 25.5 million. Last year he sucked and so did the Devils. This year he is OK, but is a fair comparison. So....om....what? Kaberle signed the identical deal. Are we in agreement? I said find deals under 4 million per?
P.S. Much has chagned since July 1, 2010
No, you said 4.5M.

And, no, much hasn't changed since July 1st, 2010.

Andy Greene.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:32 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
something tells me you've never taken negotiations before

"objective criteria"


...you have to pay 1 employee of similar characteristics comparable to other employees of similar characteristics.
Yeah, that went right over your head.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:39 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
You missed the worst signing:

Seriously, if you ask any knowledgeable fan of another team, they realize how important and how good Coburn is.

Two seasons ago, we made it to the Finals playing only 4D and with Leighton/Boucher in net! Frankly, the main reason we ended up losing was that Pronger and Kimmo were hurt and worn down. Only Carle and Coby had any legs left at all by game 6.

And yet people slag Carle and Coburn? Why? They are both excellent players who deserve to be paid more than the entire list above of crappy Dmen (Lidstrom and Yandle excepted). Markov is great but he's ALWAYS hurt. Kaberle? Old and crap. Wiz? Younger and crap.

I don't know what this means for Carle (either walk as UFA, trade rights before draft or sign and trade Meszaros) but I can't see either him or Mez being dealt before the deadline. Carle can make a killing next summer as a UFA, depending on what else happens.

Coburn is a very solid citizen, committed to fitness and the Flyers, who I think will prove to have given us a hometown discount when next year's UFA season wraps up, if it's anything like last year's. He just got married last year and had a baby during this season.

Be happy people, we just made a great signing.
My order of preference for the previous list would be:
Lidstrom (6.2M)
Yandle (5.1M for 5 years)
Pitkanen (4.5M)
Kevin Bieksa (4.1M)
Coburn
Gorges (2.5M for 1 year)
Brewer (4M)
Carle
Kaberle (12.75M for 3 years)
Hamrlik (3.5M)
Markov (5.5M)

That's taking into account injury history and salary.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:50 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
It's almost like beef (along with the other Homer-Haters) WANT bryz to fail so that their hatred for homer will be justified.

wait.

thats exactly what it is

When in fact, Homer is turning out to be a quirky genius who makes unorthodox but effective moves.

ain't that a *****...

(there are also so many factors that we know NOTHING about inside the locker room, so people here don't have enough information to argue against a modest increase. In fact attacking him here is just disrespectful and immature.)
Do you write for The Simpsons, 'cause this is great comedy. First off, the 'conspiracy theory' approach is a little cliche, but it's a good try. I don't see too many people actively rooting for a Bryz failure to prove their points. And Holmgren a quirky genius? Sure. Here he is with his friend Tom Cruise.



And if we limited conversations to only what we had first-hand information on, there would be more tumbleweeds than posts in here. The numbers (new contract vs points, TOI, etc.) are more than sufficient to provide perspective on Coburn as a #3/4 in this league.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:58 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
By NHL standards, he's never really put up points...
Coburn put up pretty strong "two-way" numbers in 07-09, with 80 points in his first 198 games as a Flyer (.40 PPG), including 29 PPP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Even in juniors his numbers are modest.
Modest compared to whom?

Jay Bouwmeester
194 GP, 40 G, 111 A, 151 P, .78 PPG

Brent Seabrook
264 GP, 39 G, 137 A, 176 P, .67

Brent Burns
68 GP, 15 G, 25 A, 40 P, .59

Dion Phaneuf
255 GP, 64 G, 82 A, 146 P, .57

Braydon Coburn
238 GP, 29 G, 102 A, 131 P, .55


Kyle Quincy
185 GP, 35 G, 68 A, 103 P, .54

Marc Staal
236 GP, 23 G, 100 A, 123 P, .52

Shea Weber
190 GP, 26 G, 65 A, 91 P, .48


I am not suggesting that Coburn was an offensive prospect on par with Barker, Bouwmeester or Seabrook, but the Junior and early career numbers (see post #123) do actually indicate offensive talent that isn't being utilized or tapped into very much the last few years.

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11-09-2011, 07:29 PM
  #216
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Per Tim P.:

Quote:
Coburn does NOT have a no-trade clause in his extension

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11-09-2011, 07:33 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Per Tim P.:
But Homer is so stupid!

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11-09-2011, 08:38 PM
  #218
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Earn it baby.

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Old
11-09-2011, 09:50 PM
  #219
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Earn it baby.
Love mean Coburn.

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11-09-2011, 10:04 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Coburn put up pretty strong "two-way" numbers in 07-09, with 80 points in his first 198 games as a Flyer (.40 PPG), including 29 PPP.


I am not suggesting that Coburn was an offensive prospect on par with Barker, Bouwmeester or Seabrook, but the Junior and early career numbers (see post #123) do actually indicate offensive talent that isn't being utilized or tapped into very much the last few years.
Most of those guyS aren't necessarily studs themselves. Someone like Phaneuf had twice as many goals, though... so, not sure that's fair to Coburn.

D are heavily reliant on the PP to gather points, and Coburn played his way off that unit when he stopped hitting the net. Same thing Meszaros is in the process of doing. Coburn has a very limited skill set offensively, other than being fast. He'll, he learned his once effective one timer here with Mullen. I wouldn't hold your breath for an offensive explosion from him.

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11-10-2011, 01:24 AM
  #221
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Jay Bouwmeester: .78 - $6,680,000
Brent Seabrook: .67 - $5,800,000
(Dan Hamhuis: .63 - $4,500,000)
Brent Burns: .59 - $5,760,000
Dion Phaneuf: .57 - $6,500,000
Braydon Coburn: .55 - $4,500,000
Kyle Quincy: .54 - $3,125,000
Marc Staal: .52 - $3,975,000
Shea Weber: .48 - $7,500,000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Most of those guys aren't necessarily studs themselves.

Someone like Phaneuf had twice as many goals, though... so, not sure that's fair to Coburn.
They are 2001-2005 draft eligible Canadian OHL/CHL/WHL all-stars and WJC roster invitee defensemen with offensive upside taken in the 1st or 2nd round who have shown at least solid NHL ability.

They are Coburn's cohort, and for the most part they are pretty damn good NHL defensemen. They are also a group of very well paid men. Most of them are better than Coburn, and they are paid more than him too. Only Staal (still in his RFA years) and Quincy (derailed by injuries) are not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
D are heavily reliant on the PP to gather points, and Coburn played his way off that unit when he stopped hitting the net. Same thing Meszaros is in the process of doing. Coburn has a very limited skill set offensively, other than being fast. He'll, he learned his once effective one timer here with Mullen. I wouldn't hold your breath for an offensive explosion from him.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about an "offensive explosion." I was referring to past levels of production that reveal his ability when employed in a more offensive-oriented role. I specifically mentioned the acquisition of Carle, Pronger and Meszaros curtailing Coburn's opportunities to take on that role.

Laviolette himself said today that Coburn has proven Power Play ability, but that he is used in more of a shut-down role because of the way the Flyers D-corps is constructed.

You can skip to about :42 -- http://video.flyers.nhl.com/videocen...1001&id=133894

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Old
11-10-2011, 08:15 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Per Tim P.:
I was going to say...


Coburn better not have a NTC

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11-10-2011, 10:32 AM
  #223
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Late to the party, but not a bad deal for Coburn.

Maybe a little high on the cap hit, but something I can easily live with.

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11-10-2011, 04:53 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent Street View Post
Love mean Coburn.
Mean Coburn is the best.

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11-10-2011, 05:00 PM
  #225
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Well you can also look at it like this... From when he got his contract 3 years ago, is he currently worth/paying 1.3 million better than he was then?

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