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Old
11-09-2011, 12:24 AM
  #1
WeekendAtBernies
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Nashville and Philly

I put this trade up over on the Nashville forum and it generally seemed like most of the regulars over there would be interested in it:

To Nashville:
Jakub Voracek
3rd round pick

To Philly:
Ryan Ellis
Jerred Smithson

Nashville liked it from their end, and I really like it for the Flyers:

- Jerred Smithson is an excellent defensive center, and has been among the best faceoff men and PKers in the league for the past 2 years. He is on a dirt cheap 800k cap hit for each of the next 2 years. He would instantly take over the 4th line center duties and be one of our top PKers. And perhaps more importantly, his 57.4% faceoff percentage (6th in the NHL last year) would make him a rock for us late in games in important defensive-zone draw situations. Smithson's acquisition would also allow us to move Talbot to the wing on a 3rd line centered by Couturier. Talbot has some obvious chemistry w/ Couturier and I think it's been obvious to most that he is at his best when he is playing the wing.

-Ryan Ellis is one of the better puck-moving defense prospects in the league. He was the 11th pick in the 09 draft.

In the 2011 World Junior Championships, he had 3 goals and 7 assists in 7 games, finishing 4th in scoring behind 3 forwards (Schenn, Kuznetsov, and Tarasenko). He had 19 points in 18 OHL playoff games last year, leading all defensemen. He had 101 points in 58 regular season games... leading all defensemen, with the closest defenseman (Ryan Murphy) scoring only 79 points. The year before that, he had 33 points in 19 OHL playoff games... leading all defensemen in that category, outscoring the 2nd place defenseman by 15 points.

Simply put, Ryan Ellis is an offense dynamo @ the D position. He's everything we could ask for in an eventual Timonen replacement... excellent puck mover, great shot, top notch PP quarterback, and a great leader. The only thing he lacks is size... but then again, so does Timonen

Lines after the deal:

Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
JVR-Briere-Simmonds
Talbot-Couturier-Read
Nodl-Smithson-Rinaldo

Once Schenn comes back, we would move Simmonds to Rinaldo's spot on the 4th line and the 2nd line would be JVR-Briere-Schenn.

Thoughts on the trade?


Last edited by MiamiScreamingEagles: 11-09-2011 at 09:36 AM.
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Old
11-09-2011, 12:49 AM
  #2
DeflatedFootball7
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Everyday of the week twice on Sunday's.

First proposal I've liked in a while.

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Old
11-09-2011, 08:17 AM
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Hollywood Couturier
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While it's nice that Ryan Ellis is an offensive dynamo, pure offense won't make up for Kimmo Timonen.

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11-09-2011, 09:18 AM
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phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
While it's nice that Ryan Ellis is an offensive dynamo, pure offense won't make up for Kimmo Timonen.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. If you guys think that Carle is ok offensively but bad defensively I can't wait until you'd actually see this guy against NHL competition. He's had to "improve defensively" just to NOT be a liability at the junior level, he's gonna look COMPLETELY one dimensionable in the NHL. His defense will be far far worse than even Mike Greens defense and his offense probably won't be anywhere nearly as good. Hell, Sammy Kapanen would have looked like an allstar shut-down guy as a winger playing defense compared to Ellis on defense. Sorry but he's no "replacement" for Kimmo. I'd probably be ok with him along side a defensive stud like Suter but certainly not with any of our current crop once Timonen and Pronger are done.

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Old
11-09-2011, 09:20 AM
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WeekendAtBernies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
While it's nice that Ryan Ellis is an offensive dynamo, pure offense won't make up for Kimmo Timonen.
He's not just pure offense... he's led his team in +/- every single year as well. He's quite a skilled defenseman and a great prospect. The only thing he lacks is the typical size you'd like in a defenseman. But as I said, Timonen hasn't exactly let lack of size slow him down and I doubt Ellis will either.

Btw, you should watch a video of his shot What a laser. If you added that deadly shot to our powerplay. Other teams would need .

We'd be incredibly lucky to add this kid to our team. And I think his unique skill-set would absolutely flourish in the system we run. He's everything we always hoped Matt Carle could be both offensively and defensively.

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11-09-2011, 09:23 AM
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Hollywood Couturier
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Have you ever watched him in game action?

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Old
11-09-2011, 09:25 AM
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Switch Ellis for Blum and I'm down. We need a defender, not a PP specialist.

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11-09-2011, 09:52 AM
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The Flyers board has become the new proposal board.

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Old
11-09-2011, 09:53 AM
  #9
WeekendAtBernies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Have you ever watched him in game action?
I actually have, quite extensively.

Have you?

I'm not saying he's a shutdown defender ala Shea Weber, but he's a very, very good offensive defenseman prospect and his defensive game is developing nicely.

He looks like he's going to be a second pairing defenseman and a powerplay specialist. And he's definitely someone we could use on this team. His skills on the powerplay would be absolutely lethal in this system.

I'd take him over Matt Carle anyday. He may not be as physical, but he's a fluid skater, his positioning is solid, he's got a wicked shot, and his passing is elite (as far as defensemen go)... none of these weak defensive zone turnovers.

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11-09-2011, 12:16 PM
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I actually like the deal a lot too. It addresses two areas of weakness for us and one big one for Nashville. I'd say it's win-win. It's a smaller deal rather than trying to come up with a blockbuster to try to replace Kimmo.....I mean, you're not going to get a Timonen type player back for just Voracek.

Nice proposal!!
Make it so.

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Old
11-09-2011, 12:47 PM
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McNasty
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Nashville isn't moving any of their defenseman until they figure out what's going on with Suter and Weber. I'm not all that interested in Ryan Ellis, his value is going to come from his offensive ability and I really don't anticipate offense is going to be a huge area of concern for this team moving forward.

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11-09-2011, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Switch Ellis for Blum and I'm down. We need a defender, not a PP specialist.
No deal, Blum is too valuable (he's a pseudo Suter in our eyes).

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11-09-2011, 01:03 PM
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ShawnTHW
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I'll take Voracek before I take Ellis. Gonna have to upgrade to Blum for us to even consider. I'm in the camp that thinks Ellis won't do much.

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11-09-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
I actually have, quite extensively.

Have you?

I'm not saying he's a shutdown defender ala Shea Weber, but he's a very, very good offensive defenseman prospect and his defensive game is developing nicely.

He looks like he's going to be a second pairing defenseman and a powerplay specialist. And he's definitely someone we could use on this team. His skills on the powerplay would be absolutely lethal in this system.

I'd take him over Matt Carle anyday. He may not be as physical, but he's a fluid skater, his positioning is solid, he's got a wicked shot, and his passing is elite (as far as defensemen go)... none of these weak defensive zone turnovers.
You are selling the wrong prospect to the flyers. Ellis is so bad defensively. You are clearly trying to cover that up with your comments.

If blum was on the table I could see the flyers giving up a little more. But we don't want a glorified gustafsson.

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Old
11-09-2011, 01:12 PM
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ShawnTHW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
He's not just pure offense... he's led his team in +/- every single year as well. He's quite a skilled defenseman and a great prospect. The only thing he lacks is the typical size you'd like in a defenseman. But as I said, Timonen hasn't exactly let lack of size slow him down and I doubt Ellis will either.

Btw, you should watch a video of his shot What a laser. If you added that deadly shot to our powerplay. Other teams would need .

We'd be incredibly lucky to add this kid to our team. And I think his unique skill-set would absolutely flourish in the system we run. He's everything we always hoped Matt Carle could be both offensively and defensively.
Lidstrom was a -2 last season for the Red Wings. You're trying to tell me he was horrible defensively for Detroit?.........fat chance.

Word of advice, stop using +/- to determine a player's defensive ability. It is the most arbitrary stat in hockey and doesn't prove anything.

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11-09-2011, 01:47 PM
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WeekendAtBernies
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Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 View Post
Lidstrom was a -2 last season for the Red Wings. You're trying to tell me he was horrible defensively for Detroit?.........fat chance.

Word of advice, stop using +/- to determine a player's defensive ability. It is the most arbitrary stat in hockey and doesn't prove anything.
It's quite arbitrary for players across different teams, but if you're comparing players on a single team, it's definitely useful.

Of course, you need to weigh it against other factors (ie. points, Corsi, etc.).

In Lidstrom's case, he put up 62 points... by far the highest total of any defenseman on his team. He was obviously very valuable last year.

In the case of the prospect we're talking about, Ryan Ellis, he both led his team in + / -, and led his team in points. That's pretty impressive for a defenseman. And he had a rather significant lead over the 2nd person in each of those categories.

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11-09-2011, 01:48 PM
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WeekendAtBernies
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
You are selling the wrong prospect to the flyers. Ellis is so bad defensively. You are clearly trying to cover that up with your comments.

If blum was on the table I could see the flyers giving up a little more. But we don't want a glorified gustafsson.
Do you have some evidence that Ellis is so bad defensively? I'd love to see some because I've watched several of their games and haven't seen this supposedly terrible defensive play from him.

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11-09-2011, 01:52 PM
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WeekendAtBernies
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Nashville isn't moving any of their defenseman until they figure out what's going on with Suter and Weber. I'm not all that interested in Ryan Ellis, his value is going to come from his offensive ability and I really don't anticipate offense is going to be a huge area of concern for this team moving forward.
Have you watched this team's powerplay without Pronger? It's terrible. We don't have a future powerplay quarterback on this team right now. And one has to wonder how much longer Pronger can keep this up. He is getting up there in age and already he's slow @ times to keep the puck from clearing the zone.

Ellis would be an extremely valuable asset to us IMO. Perhaps not as valuable as a #1 shutdown defenseman, but you're not going to acquire one of those for Voracek. Ellis combined w/ the rest of the skill players on this team on the powerplay would be lethal.

And you're certainly not touching Blum w/ a package built around Voracek either. We seem to want to vastly overrate our own players and vastly underrate other teams' players. The fact is, Blum is a future #1 defenseman and Voracek appears to be a #2 RW @ best.

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11-09-2011, 02:14 PM
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Simply put the Flyers are better off using their forward depth to find a defenseman who can contribute to more areas then just the PP. Ryan Ellis' offensive ability is off the charts, but scoring goals is not going to be a problem with the forward core that has been assembled. If Ryan Ellis is so good why would Nashville give him up for Voracek?

Also worth noting the flyers would have to shed a contract to make this deal.

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Old
11-09-2011, 03:00 PM
  #20
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Simply put the Flyers are better off using their forward depth to find a defenseman who can contribute to more areas then just the PP. Ryan Ellis' offensive ability is off the charts, but scoring goals is not going to be a problem with the forward core that has been assembled. If Ryan Ellis is so good why would Nashville give him up for Voracek?

Also worth noting the flyers would have to shed a contract to make this deal.
QFT. Ellis would be nice to have in our prospect pool but certainly not at the cost of Voracek. Sorry but that doesn't make us better in the long run.

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Old
11-09-2011, 03:06 PM
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Damaged Goods
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Have you watched this team's powerplay without Pronger? It's terrible. We don't have a future powerplay quarterback on this team right now. And one has to wonder how much longer Pronger can keep this up. He is getting up there in age and already he's slow @ times to keep the puck from clearing the zone.

Ellis would be an extremely valuable asset to us IMO. Perhaps not as valuable as a #1 shutdown defenseman, but you're not going to acquire one of those for Voracek. Ellis combined w/ the rest of the skill players on this team on the powerplay would be lethal.

And you're certainly not touching Blum w/ a package built around Voracek either. We seem to want to vastly overrate our own players and vastly underrate other teams' players. The fact is, Blum is a future #1 defenseman and Voracek appears to be a #2 RW @ best.
Pronger's PP minutes are going to be the last thing to go, not the first.

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Old
11-09-2011, 05:24 PM
  #22
WeekendAtBernies
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Pronger's PP minutes are going to be the last thing to go, not the first.
His minutes might be the last thing to go, but his ability on the powerplay won't be. As he gets older, his passing ability will become less proficient and he will become slower. That doesn't bode well for the powerplay QB.

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11-09-2011, 05:43 PM
  #23
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I've never liked Ellis as a result of everyone always way over hyping him.

He is not good defensively, and I watched him dozens of times live. He was always paired with a great defensive d-man. And when you are "very very good defensively" with 80 points, I expect you to have a very high +/-.

His on-ice arrogance is mind boggling.

I would not trade Shelley for him.

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11-09-2011, 05:54 PM
  #24
OriginJM
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I would not trade Shelley for him.

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