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Old
11-10-2011, 05:11 PM
  #26
Whitesnake
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That was the whole point of the 2009 draft for whoever still believes you never draft by needs (while Habs CLEARLY went for needs on D in 2006 and 2007 and on C in 2009). The problem is that they drafted C's in 2009 that might never play that position once they reach the bigs.

I don't see Leblanc be a C in the NHL. He will be a winger. Dumont could....but not sure. Walsh has already been moved to the wings. Cichy might never be a NHL player......Remains to be seen what career Naatinen will have.

So you can draft C's all you want.....you need to draft the right ones. If that was your sole and only goal, Leblanc was NOT the pick to go with if you wanted a real C. And I always thought the world of Corban Knight who I think will be a C in the NHL.

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11-10-2011, 05:23 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
Grigorenko is a nice attractive big center
If every Hab fan agreed with picking Grigorenko here I think the Habs might take it seriously, like I do.Trade and have it Made! or Fail for Mikhail.

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11-10-2011, 05:34 PM
  #28
WhiskeySeven
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I swear if we draft the best available C in every round, ONE of them has got to show something, no?!

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11-10-2011, 05:42 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I swear if we draft the best available C in every round, ONE of them has got to show something, no?!
Well, if you want to destroy procurement at every other position and are willing to draft an inferior prospect in most rounds because you're just taking centers I guess you could do that. Doesn't make it a smart plan though.

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11-10-2011, 05:58 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Well, if you want to destroy procurement at every other position and are willing to draft an inferior prospect in most rounds because you're just taking centers I guess you could do that. Doesn't make it a smart plan though.
No team's scouts would ever pick at one position for seven rounds,unless the players left were to good to overlook.

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11-10-2011, 06:35 PM
  #31
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The Habs have drafted lots of centers since 2003: Urquhart, Lapierre, Chipchura, Maxwell, White, Leblanc, etc. No real stars are to be found in that lot. Almost every other team has found at least one. Boston drafted Bergeron, Krejci, and Seguin. Pittsburgh drafted Malkin, Crosby, and Staal.


Last edited by Teufelsdreck: 11-10-2011 at 06:45 PM.
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11-10-2011, 08:00 PM
  #32
Whitesnake
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Centerman are definately not our strength as far as drafting is concerned. Last good centerman we drafted was Grabovski. Good enough to stick around with us, you have to go back to Pleks. And that's in 11 years. 2 good centermen in 11 years.....

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11-11-2011, 01:36 AM
  #33
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you guys are forgetting the best center we've drafted in the last 15 years.....

andrei markov.
He started his career as a forward I have been told

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Old
11-11-2011, 02:13 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Centerman are definately not our strength as far as drafting is concerned. Last good centerman we drafted was Grabovski. Good enough to stick around with us, you have to go back to Pleks. And that's in 11 years. 2 good centermen in 11 years.....
This should be a year that stands as a defining draft for the Habs future,you could throw a dart at a the boardful of great or good centers available.This season is make or break IMO.Grigorenko or Girgensons,and at least ten others Cristoval Nieves,Phil DiGiuseppe,etc.etc.Just DO IT.

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11-11-2011, 07:42 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The Habs have drafted lots of centers since 2003: Urquhart, Lapierre, Chipchura, Maxwell, White, Leblanc, etc. No real stars are to be found in that lot. Almost every other team has found at least one. Boston drafted Bergeron, Krejci, and Seguin. Pittsburgh drafted Malkin, Crosby, and Staal.
Bad examples... 4 of those 6 centers were drafted in the top two. When did Montreal get that opportunity?

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11-11-2011, 09:57 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Bad examples... 4 of those 6 centers were drafted in the top two. When did Montreal get that opportunity?
In 1971 and in 1980 those were the days my friend we thought they'd never end

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11-11-2011, 12:31 PM
  #37
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In 1971 and in 1980 those were the days my friend we thought they'd never end
Unless I'm overlooking someone, Jacques Lemaire was the only HOF center selected by the Habs since the mid-1960s. The Habs avoided drafting great centers in the 1970s and 1980s as though they were allergic to them. Look at Sam Pollock's wasted first round picks toward the end of the 1970s. No wonder the Islanders pushed the Habs aside. The Habs wouldn't even have won the Cup in 1979 if the Rangers hadn't upset the Islanders (and Don Cherry's mind hadn't wandered). It didn't get any better after Pollock left. The Habs used the #1 overall pick in 1980 to draft Doug Wickenheiser instead of Denis Savard. Bobby Smith, Vincent Damphousse, Pierre Turgeon, and Kirk Muller came in trades not in the draft. One exception to that trend was Saku Koivu, who made a sensational debut in his rookie season Unfortunately, he blew his knee and was never the same afterwards. Tomas Plekanec has been very good but not of HOF caliber.

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Old
11-12-2011, 03:04 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post

Basically for currently active players that Montreal legitimately had a chance to get we'd be talking about a handful of guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Brad Richards, Giroux, Stasny and Kopitar.

I think the evidence will show that most of the teams that have drafted and developed centers better than Montreal's have exploited an inefficiency no one else knew about and doesn't exist anymore (Detroit) or were the lucky teams that drafted well on the best draft year ever (Kesler, Getzalf, Carter, Richards etc.).
So you're defending our lack of success with with drafting centers by citing the above? I think you've killed your own argument.

Your first quote means that we missed 6, yes 6, superb franchise centers. 5 other teams did not. Why should we excuse that?

Your second quote says that teams were 'lucky' to pick 4 great centers in 2003. No, they drafted better than we did that year, and benefited hugely.

I understand what you mean, and the draft is somewhat a crap shoot, but I don't make excuses for the Habs re the 2003 draft or consistently failing to draft great centers. Not counting Saku, as that was long ago, and except for Pleks, we have failed in this department and should admit it. I agree with the OP.

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11-12-2011, 03:17 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
So you're defending our lack of success with with drafting centers by citing the above? I think you've killed your own argument.

Your first quote means that we missed 6, yes 6, superb franchise centers. 5 other teams did not. Why should we excuse that?

Your second quote says that teams were 'lucky' to pick 4 great centers in 2003. No, they drafted better than we did that year, and benefited hugely.

I understand what you mean, and the draft is somewhat a crap shoot, but I don't make excuses for the Habs re the 2003 draft or consistently failing to draft great centers. Not counting Saku, as that was long ago, and except for Pleks, we have failed in this department and should admit it. I agree with the OP.
Can't fault them on the 2003 draft. It's easy enough now to look at it and say they should have taken Carters, Richards, Kesler or Getzlaf but at the time it was viewed as fortunate that Kostitsyn fell to them. Such is life.

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11-12-2011, 03:37 AM
  #40
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If there has been a consistent need in the organization why not do like we did with some our defensive picks (like Mark Streit) and pick a well-seasoned player who fits our needs.
For two reasons:

1) It's exceedingly difficult to draft a well-seasoned player. There are few of them out there.

2) It's no longer possible to draft a 'well-seasoned' player in the new draft rules.

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Old
11-12-2011, 06:45 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Too bad we drafted Fisher over Giroux, it would have changed the course of the team.. What we lack is an elite center, they are rare and usually drafted very early.. I dont know for you guys but personally Ive no more fun watching the Habs, so part of me want a mediocre season to have a shot at Mikhail Grigorenko so we have a more exciting team to watch in the future..
If we've had such a tough time developing high end talent, what makes you think Giroux would be the player he is now if he was drafted by the Habs?

He could have looked like Grabovsky for all we know. It also helps playing with high end players as well.

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11-12-2011, 07:37 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
So you're defending our lack of success with with drafting centers by citing the above? I think you've killed your own argument.

Your first quote means that we missed 6, yes 6, superb franchise centers. 5 other teams did not. Why should we excuse that?
Detroit missed 23 opportunities to draft Pavel Datsyuk before picking him and allowed the rest of the NHL 634 collective opportunities to do so instead, which were all declined.

They didn't do that because they believed he was a 'superb franchise center'.


Last edited by Corncob: 11-12-2011 at 08:51 AM.
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11-12-2011, 08:43 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
So you're defending our lack of success with with drafting centers by citing the above? I think you've killed your own argument.

Your first quote means that we missed 6, yes 6, superb franchise centers. 5 other teams did not. Why should we excuse that?

Your second quote says that teams were 'lucky' to pick 4 great centers in 2003. No, they drafted better than we did that year, and benefited hugely.

I understand what you mean, and the draft is somewhat a crap shoot, but I don't make excuses for the Habs re the 2003 draft or consistently failing to draft great centers. Not counting Saku, as that was long ago, and except for Pleks, we have failed in this department and should admit it. I agree with the OP.
Look at how many teams have failed to draft and develop their own Plekanec let alone a Riberio and Grabrovski in a similar time frame. Doubly so if we drop top 5 picks from the equation to level the playing field. By my count the teams that have managed a Plekanec level center or better during that time (since 2001) in the East are:
Boston (Bergeron, Krejci) and Philadelphia (Carter, Richards, Giroux) New Jersey (Zajac) and Buffalo (Roy). Leaving 10 teams (Ott, Tor, Pit, NYR, NYI, Win, Was, Fla, TB, Car) with a worse record than Mtl. Shift it to since Riberio's time (1998) and we add Gomez and Brad Richards to the equation.

I'm defending it on the basis that in terms of actual opportunity, there are very few teams that you could say have done a better job with any kind of consistency. By definition, top centers are very rare which means luck is going to be a huge factor in who ends up with one. A top level guy that didn't go at the top of the draft seems to be something like a once in every 3 years or so occurrence absent one fluke year. Its such a rare event that skill becomes indistinguishable from luck.

The principle problem is that your looking at this matter from such a Habs-centric point of view that your comparing the success of one team versus the successes of the entire other 29 teams. The mistakes Montreal made were ones that a lot of teams made at the same time. Your supposed failure to consistently draft great centers essentially describes the majority of NHL teams.

Ultimately the lack of a more elite centerman selected by Montreal is not an indication that there is anything particularly wrong with their procurement process (although being more like Philadelphia or Boston in that regard would be a boon). Rather its a sign that they haven't drafted in the top 3 for over 3 decades now. You can term this as a failure if you want to, but you should understand that its a failure at a task with a low probability of success. Its the difference between success that should be expected and success that can merely be hoped for.

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Old
11-12-2011, 09:13 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Unless I'm overlooking someone, Jacques Lemaire was the only HOF center selected by the Habs since the mid-1960s. The Habs avoided drafting great centers in the 1970s and 1980s as though they were allergic to them. Look at Sam Pollock's wasted first round picks toward the end of the 1970s. No wonder the Islanders pushed the Habs aside. The Habs wouldn't even have won the Cup in 1979 if the Rangers hadn't upset the Islanders (and Don Cherry's mind hadn't wandered). It didn't get any better after Pollock left. The Habs used the #1 overall pick in 1980 to draft Doug Wickenheiser instead of Denis Savard. Bobby Smith, Vincent Damphousse, Pierre Turgeon, and Kirk Muller came in trades not in the draft. One exception to that trend was Saku Koivu, who made a sensational debut in his rookie season Unfortunately, he blew his knee and was never the same afterwards. Tomas Plekanec has been very good but not of HOF caliber.
Another article about Lemaire was a high scoring LW when he was drafted Montreal was so deep at center,Lemaire became a checking forward then a center.Peter Mahovlich was a pickup out of Detroit,and was still going through growing pains and finally his skating caught up with his skills and became a solid center with Frank Mahovlich first then centered Guy Lafleur and Steve Shutt.That job fell to Lemaire whose two-way game was a perfect fit for their line.Henri Richard and Beliveau and Ralph Backstrom were their centers for a decade before.Center was always the strong position in the Habs teams in their 25 year reign of the NHL between 1955-1980.Another center that the habs traded Greg Hubick to Toronto for Doug Jarvis another shrewd move by Sam Pollock.Depth at center was always a chief concern to the Habs in those days Montreal's teams always had depth at center and they groomed their players having great coaching in the farm teams like Al MacNiell.


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Old
11-12-2011, 09:55 AM
  #45
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Other centers form the 70's Guy Lafleur was a center when drafted,Doug Risebrough, Pierre Mondou were drafted.Pierre Larouche was picked up from Pittsburgh in a trade,Bobby Sheehan and many others were traded off.Of special note after the 1969 draft the Habs lost the right to the first two Quebec league players which they got as a result of buying all of the Quebec based teams in the 50's to sign Beliveau.Anyways the major point was the Habs always worked from a position of depth.Which fell apart in the 80's and didn't return to those ways until Bob Gainey joined the team in 2003 and started building the team from the ground up so to speak.Building a strong farm team in Hamilton and putting knowledgeable hockey people throughout the organization again. This is why he could get Jacques Martin to leave his GM job in sunny Florida and coach the Habs,when smart hockey men like him and Pierre Gauthier,Trevor Timmins joined the Habs to bring them back to their former glory.

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