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Old
11-11-2011, 09:35 AM
  #151
ADoubleD
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Tim Graham tweeted the other night saying how the older he gets the more similarities he sees between sports and religion, and I can't help but agree with him. Maybe I'm crazy, but some very religious people act as if their religion is perfect, and can do no wrong. Look at the reaction of Penn State students and others defending Paterno to Joe Pa's firing. See any similarities?

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11-11-2011, 09:39 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
Tim Graham tweeted the other night saying how the older he gets the more similarities he sees between sports and religion, and I can't help but agree with him. Maybe I'm crazy, but some very religious people act as if their religion is perfect, and can do no wrong. Look at the reaction of Penn State students and others defending Paterno to Joe Pa's firing. See any similarities?
Zeal and fanatism in any form can lead to that -- be it for religion, sports, or politics.

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11-11-2011, 09:44 AM
  #153
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I'm sorry but this is extremely ignorant. I wouldn't exactly call this insignificant. To me it's not about this specific incident its about the fact that people would actually cover up something like this. It's not like something like this hasn't happened before cough Catholic Church cough. There's a serious problem in our culture when people are more worried about protecting their image than doing what's right. What's just as sad are the people defending Paterno, and the reaction students at Penn State had to his firing. People are so out of touch with reality if they're more concerned with the fact that Joe Pa's legacy is tarnished then they are with the fact that child **** was covered up, and by being covered up the ******* doing it was allowed to keep doing it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it really bothers me how out of whack some people's priorities are.
Social politics will trump social morality every time. It shouldn't be that way and it's deplorable that it so often is that way. Even now I get the sense that the actions taken by PSU aren't as much about doing the right thing and punishing the villains, as much as it is about restoring the university's image. Life and reality can be so disgusting...

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11-11-2011, 09:45 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. It's insignificant in the context that child abuse is very widespread and doesn't get nearly the attention it truly deserves. The fact that some perv at some ******** college football program perpetrated the crime is just one data point in sea of millions of data points.
My apologies I read it wrong.

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11-11-2011, 09:58 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by MrCryceratops View Post
Social politics will trump social morality every time. It shouldn't be that way and it's deplorable that it so often is that way. Even now I get the sense that the actions taken by PSU aren't as much about doing the right thing and punishing the villains, as much as it is about restoring the university's image. Life and reality can be so disgusting...
Yeah I have a similar feeling and it makes me sick. If they were truly interested in doing what's right they would've turned Sandusky in when they first found out about this. The stupidity of the people who decided not to report this is almost mind boggling to me. When will people realize that nothing good will ever come from covering up stuff like this. If they had turned Sandusky in as soon as they knew about this not only would Joe Pa's legacy not be tarnished, but the school wouldn't have the huge PR mess they now have to deal with. Not only is it the morally right thing to do, but its the smart thing to do PR wise. Yeah some people might question Sandusky's hiring and how he was allowed to do such a thing on campus, but it would be nothing compared to what they have to deal with now. I feel like that's something that hasn't been mentioned too much in all the coverage of this.

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11-11-2011, 10:10 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by MrCryceratops View Post
Social politics will trump social morality every time. It shouldn't be that way and it's deplorable that it so often is that way. Even now I get the sense that the actions taken by PSU aren't as much about doing the right thing and punishing the villains, as much as it is about restoring the university's image. Life and reality can be so disgusting...
And that's exactly why Terry's statement fell so flat for some people. It came off as being mostly about Penn State.

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11-11-2011, 10:17 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Bucky has written a lot of trash over the years. That was by FAR the worst.

Those guys do their best to make something out of nothing. It's embarrassing.
I agree. What garbage.

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11-11-2011, 10:31 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
And that's exactly why Terry's statement fell so flat for some people. It came off as being mostly about Penn State.
Eh, there is no denying that some people found his statement short of the mark. I don't understand why, myself. I agree with those who feel that Pegula is not in a position where he should make a bold statement regarding the PSU situation. Instead, he released a short, blanket statement to show that it has his attention.

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As many have expressed, our primary concern is for the individuals and families who may have been victimized.
I am glad this statement came in the first paragraph. It should be foremost on our minds and terry shows that it is.

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Penn State's reputation has been severely tarnished. We are encouraged to see the University trustees have begun the process of restoring integrity and trust in the institution.
This statement supports what you are saying. His emphasis on reputation troubles me a little bit, but I suppose Terry had to address it. In a sense, he is also absolving himself from further involvement outside of his continued support, as he aligns himself with staff, students, and alumni which are very separate from the trustees in charge of the situation.

It's a double edge sword that I think Pegula did his best handling. If he said too much then he may be overstepping his boundaries, but if he says too little than he is cold and uncaring. He covered both to the extent he felt obligated. I like to think that Terry does see the immorality involved with the situation and if he isn't happy with the outcome then perhaps that would be his time to make a more aggressive statement regarding the university.

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11-11-2011, 10:51 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by jamers View Post
Yeah. I don't understand how he could have just run away. Well, I understand it. Sandusky's a big fish there. Probably an intimidating guy. But at that point, you'd hope that he'd be outraged and concerned enough about the poor boy to do something about it.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...erry_sand.html

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McQueary is a guy who once stepped in and broke up a player-related knife fight in a campus dining hall a fight police admit could have been very ugly. But this week, he is getting blasted by the public for doing too little.
So he has the guts to break up a knife fight, but he doesn't have the guts to save a small boy from a 60+ yo man?

That's just soooooo freaking sad and disappointing.

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11-11-2011, 11:02 AM
  #160
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So he has the guts to break up a knife fight, but he doesn't have the guts to save a small boy from a 60+ yo man?

That's just soooooo freaking sad and disappointing.
It's sad. I understand it's a difficult position, and not one anybody ever wants to find themselves in, but he failed to respond. It's not just him though. Everyone involved who knew failed to respond appropriately.

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11-11-2011, 11:06 AM
  #161
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And that's exactly why Terry's statement fell so flat for some people. It came off as being mostly about Penn State.
I agree that Penn State is now forced to take action in a manner that shows "taking control". It is P.R. to some extent. That does not mean that there are not trustees, professors, students that are not completely sickened by there abhorent criminal acts by a sick individual and the failings by those in charge to properly address the issue previously.

As for Pegula, it is a no win situation for him to speak on the subject. He is obviously going to condemn Sandusky, he is going to support Penn State. He is going to offer his sympathy to the victims.

He is not going to publicly villify the administrative officials. it does him no good. It is not a PR move for him. He is not running for government and providing lip service the public wants to hear. He wil be guarded and should be. Privately, I think it safe to presume he will make his mind known.

The Joe Pa and McQuery issue is one of moral character. Legally, they met their obligation. Tell your superior of wrongdoing. Morally, it is a question of doing more, going above and beyond what you are supposed to do legally. It is essentially being a "whistleblower". They could have gone to the police. They could have seen that the actions of those higher up was not significant enough and challenged them privately, trying to force the hand of the administration to do something more substantial.

Neither did so. I think it is safe to say that they did not do so partly because of self preservation, (recruiting, keeping a job, keeping up the apperance of "Happy Valley" and on and on). I think they partly did so because they felt that they did what they were told to do by their employer and it was no longer "in their hands". They may have done so because they simply could not confront what they knew. In hindsight, I am sure they regret their decisions. They should lose their job for their failings, whatever their reasons were. They are being villified for their failings because this is a sad, sad pubic story.

My nephew is a feshman at Penn State. As you could imagine, he is very upset about the whole thing. He is there for sports journalism and loves Penn State Athletics. He is emotionally torn. College is supposed to be the best four or five years of your life. A big part of choosing Penn State for many is being a fan of the football program. it is something the students identify with proudly. He says everyone is just very, very sad. It must be very confusing for these kids.

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11-11-2011, 11:11 AM
  #162
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As for Bucky, he is flexing his moral character on Pegula, writing that his statement is not "doing enough". Again, he had no obligation to make a public comment. He didpossibly due to the pressure from the Harrington article. It was guarded I am sure he is making his opinion known to those who need to hear it in Happy Valley. Bucky is just sensationalizing.

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11-11-2011, 11:12 AM
  #163
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Here is the link to the grand jury's findings, for anyone who is interested in reading it. Fair warning; it's disturbing.

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11-11-2011, 11:13 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by jamers View Post
It's sad. I understand it's a difficult position, and not one anybody ever wants to find themselves in, but he failed to respond. It's not just him though. Everyone involved who knew failed to respond appropriately.
I wonder if the failure to respond is coupled with aberration of the crime. Do some people not respond because they are so genuinely disturbed by what happened that they don't want to deal more with it? Some parents turn a blind eye to a child who is victimized by another adult, not out of disbelief, but because they are so appalled by what happened that they bury it out of mind and try and continue as though it never happened. Obviously, this is not a reasonable coping method, but it does happen. I am not saying that's what happened here, but it makes you wonder what on earth would cause people to react, or fail to react, as they did.

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11-11-2011, 11:31 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by MrCryceratops View Post
I wonder if the failure to respond is coupled with aberration of the crime. Do some people not respond because they are so genuinely disturbed by what happened that they don't want to deal more with it? Some parents turn a blind eye to a child who is victimized by another adult, not out of disbelief, but because they are so appalled by what happened that they bury it out of mind and try and continue as though it never happened. Obviously, this is not a reasonable coping method, but it does happen. I am not saying that's what happened here, but it makes you wonder what on earth would cause people to react, or fail to react, as they did.
From the testimony:

Quote:
He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed that both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. The graduate assistant left immediately, distraught.
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploa...resentment.pdf

He goes on to call his father from his office, who advises him to go to Paterno to tell him what happened.

What's saddest to me is that the boy sees that someone else sees what happens, yet does nothing that he is aware of. It's hard enough to come forward with this kind of thing without that, but for someone to apparently turn a blind eye in front of him must have been crushing.

Truly, truly sad.

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11-11-2011, 11:47 AM
  #166
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Obviously you haven't read my posts. I never stated what he did was morally acceptable. Not once. And if one of the victims was someone I knew or in my family..I fully admit I would be outraged..However ..since I have no personal feelings in this situation it allows me to think rationally about it with no emotions pushing me over the edge before ALL the facts are out. There may be more information that comes out that will fully support all this hate...and on the flipside there may be info that comes out that shows Paterno just made a bad choice.

It's easy for anonymous internet posters, bloggers, twitter freaks, journalist and pundits to sit there and judge a person when their lives are safely hidden behind a computer screen or TV Camera...but the fact is...99.9% of people have never been placed in that type of situation. I doubt it would be easy for anyone to turn in a family member or a friend they've known for decades....he did that.... He f'd up for not taking it further..and admits that..

Everything else is speculation.
You're acting as if what happened in 2002 was the first time this was brought to Paterno's attention. It wasn't. By then Paterno knew what Sandusky was. You also don't seem to grasp the power and influence that Paterno had on that campus.


Sandusky retired in 1999 after the investigations in 1998. But was allowed to negotiate the terms of his retirement. Who do you think supported Sandusky?Paterno. How else could a someone thats accused of inapproriate sexual conduct with young boys be in a position to negotiate his retirement? A settlement that included Sandusky having access to the campus facilities for use with his camps for troubled youth.

Are you actually naive enough to think that something like this could be worked out between Sandusky and Penn State without Paterno's involvement, let alone knowledge of it? The same Paterno who in 2004 when asked to resign by the Board of trustees said no and keeps his job. Since the Board is too afraid to fire him and he knows it. His stature at the school makes his statement that he did what he could by passing it "up" the chain laughable.

In 1999 when Sandusky retires, Paterno knows full well what he is accused of and why he has to retire. But even knowing what Sandusky is doesn't stop Paterno and the school from signing off on a retirement agreement with a known sexual abuser of children to host camps for troubled kids on Penn State grounds. By the time 2002 rolls around and McQueary reports what he saw to Paterno. The lame excuse you've trotted out, of not wanting to believe your buddy is like that, doesn't hold any water. He already knew Sandusky was like that.

Paterno knew from at least 1998 on that Sandusky had sexually abused young boys. Paterno was also the most powerful figure on Penn State's campus.
Paterno did nothing to stop the abuse or help the boys involved. He just passed the buck and washed his hands of the incident.

You're really going to keep spouting off that this incredibly powerful figure couldn't stop what was going on? A guy who essentially had no one above him at the school. You're not being rational, you're being delusional.

Paterno didn't make a bad choice. He made several bad judgments and ended up an enabler for a child molester and rapist.

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11-11-2011, 11:51 AM
  #167
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Harrington has completely lost his mind over this now.

http://blogs.buffalonews.com/sabres/...s-a-story.html

A snippet:

Quote:
Anyone can have any opinion they want on Pegula's statement. But I am going to make this point loud and clear right now: It is time for readers to STOP BADGERING US WITH THE THEORY PEGULA GAVE HIS MONEY TO HOCKEY AND THUS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FOOTBALL.
In summary : WE DECIDE WHAT THE NEWS IS!! NOT YOU!! JUST PAY FOR OUR PRODUCT AND ACCEPT WHAT WE SAY BLINDLY!! " - The Buffalo News

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11-11-2011, 12:03 PM
  #168
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You're acting as if what happened in 2002 was the first time this was brought to Paterno's attention. It wasn't. By then Paterno knew what Sandusky was. You also don't seem to grasp the power and influence that Paterno had on that campus.


Sandusky retired in 1999 after the investigations in 1998. But was allowed to negotiate the terms of his retirement. Who do you think supported Sandusky?Paterno. How else could a someone thats accused of inapproriate sexual conduct with young boys be in a position to negotiate his retirement? A settlement that included Sandusky having access to the campus facilities for use with his camps for troubled youth.

Are you actually naive enough to think that something like this could be worked out between Sandusky and Penn State without Paterno's involvement, let alone knowledge of it? The same Paterno who in 2004 when asked to resign by the Board of trustees said no and keeps his job. Since the Board is too afraid to fire him and he knows it. His stature at the school makes his statement that he did what he could by passing it "up" the chain laughable.

In 1999 when Sandusky retires, Paterno knows full well what he is accused of and why he has to retire. But even knowing what Sandusky is doesn't stop Paterno and the school from signing off on a retirement agreement with a known sexual abuser of children to host camps for troubled kids on Penn State grounds. By the time 2002 rolls around and McQueary reports what he saw to Paterno. The lame excuse you've trotted out, of not wanting to believe your buddy is like that, doesn't hold any water. He already knew Sandusky was like that.

Paterno knew from at least 1998 on that Sandusky had sexually abused young boys. Paterno was also the most powerful figure on Penn State's campus.
Paterno did nothing to stop the abuse or help the boys involved. He just passed the buck and washed his hands of the incident.

You're really going to keep spouting off that this incredibly powerful figure couldn't stop what was going on? A guy who essentially had no one above him at the school. You're not being rational, you're being delusional.

Paterno didn't make a bad choice. He made several bad judgments and ended up an enabler for a child molester and rapist.

I will take that a step further. Paterno was the most powerful person ever in Penn State History. Although he looks the elderly Grandpa type, he was apparently very, very controlling.

As to the later bolded quote, exactly!!!!

As an aside, espn had an article about how NFL scouts are thrilled he is gone because he made it impossible for them to do their job at Penn State. They came out and specifically blamed him for Penn State "busts" in the NFL because he would not communicate with them, would not allow them adequate access, would regularly cancel their appointments with players even after they had flown in to do their job. (Mayhem Maybin cough cough).

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11-11-2011, 12:31 PM
  #169
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As an aside, espn had an article about how NFL scouts are thrilled he is gone because he made it impossible for them to do their job at Penn State. They came out and specifically blamed him for Penn State "busts" in the NFL because he would not communicate with them, would not allow them adequate access, would regularly cancel their appointments with players even after they had flown in to do their job. (Mayhem Maybin cough cough).
I blame PSU S&C coach John Thomas and his HIT program for why PSU guys bust out at the next level.

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11-11-2011, 12:37 PM
  #170
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He goes on to call his father from his office, who advises him to go to Paterno to tell him what happened.
This is quite possibly the most infuriating part of this whole thing. You see a man violating a ten year old boy in the shower and your first two reactions are to (1) run away and (2) call your father?! Why not (1) confront the situation and (2) call the police? Or simply (1) call the police?

Granted you never know how you're going to react to a situation like that, but I'd like to think my reactions would be to (1) grab any sort of blunt instrument I could get my hands on and (2) call an ambulance for Sandusky.

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11-11-2011, 12:40 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Harrington has completely lost his mind over this now.

http://blogs.buffalonews.com/sabres/...s-a-story.html

A snippet:



In summary : WE DECIDE WHAT THE NEWS IS!! NOT YOU!! JUST PAY FOR OUR PRODUCT AND ACCEPT WHAT WE SAY BLINDLY!! " - The Buffalo News
Wait... a FACT is now a "theory"?


HAHAHAHA, what a ****ing joke. They are responding like immature children at this point.

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Pegula's love for PSU football is personal.

They are only related because he's a PSU alumni.


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11-11-2011, 12:52 PM
  #172
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I said I'm going to stay silent on this and just read, both here (our discussion among "internet freinds") and in the mainstream sources (Pennlive, others) as this story unfolds.

Until we know more, my views remain in posts #36, (#79) & #134.

I will speak up, though, to correct a couple misconceptions.

(Jim Bob,) Sandusky would have been in his late '50s in 2002, not late '60s. Though I'm sure that correction in no way changes your contention re: McQueary's lack of physical intervention in 2002. (which I resoundingly agree with)

flyingpig and perhaps others, I believe we do not know for certain McQueary and Paterno fully "met their legal obligation" by (simply) notifying their superiors. I have not seen an article / discussion which focused directly or exclusively on what the obligations PSU Employees had in 2002 re: direct witnessing (McQueary) or receiving a report of (Paterno) a sex crime. I find it hard to believe both the Commonwealth and PSU (40,000 student body, with probably several thousand faculty and support staff) lacked either laws or rules requiring direct reporting to Law Enforcement (or "anonymous" whistle-blower reporting to PSU Ombudsman or Law Enforcement hotline if fear of retribution / cover-up). Not detracting from the tragedy and victims, nor the cover-up, but the law here is relevant, IMO. I have grave doubts Penna. law was followed by either (ignoring the moral discussion - others have covered that).

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11-11-2011, 12:55 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Harrington has completely lost his mind over this now.

http://blogs.buffalonews.com/sabres/...s-a-story.html

A snippet:



In summary : WE DECIDE WHAT THE NEWS IS!! NOT YOU!! JUST PAY FOR OUR PRODUCT AND ACCEPT WHAT WE SAY BLINDLY!! " - The Buffalo News
Speaking of out of context... that's not his point.

He's clearly spelling out why Pegula was more obligated to comment than most fans at first understood.

By the way, you read it here first.

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11-11-2011, 01:03 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Harrington has completely lost his mind over this now.

http://blogs.buffalonews.com/sabres/...s-a-story.html

A snippet:



In summary : WE DECIDE WHAT THE NEWS IS!! NOT YOU!! JUST PAY FOR OUR PRODUCT AND ACCEPT WHAT WE SAY BLINDLY!! " - The Buffalo News
This has gone far past ludicrous and is now bordering on insane. What more does Pegula have to do to please TBN clowns? He released his statement grieving for the victims. He mentioned that he believes the trustees, the ones in charge of fixing all of this, will make the proper decisions. Honestly, he didn't even have to do that. So long as his money wasn't tied to any of those camps, or the programs where people were victimized, what more is he obligated to do? Where does Harrington and Bucky feel Pegula's responsibility begins and where it ends? I think i am done with TBN.

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11-11-2011, 01:08 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Speaking of out of context... that's not his point.

He's clearly spelling out why Pegula was more obligated to comment than most fans at first understood.

By the way, you read it here first.
Yeah, but he did comment. He made his statement. I don't see why these guys keep harping on the subject and painting Tpegs as some cold hearted *******. The problem I am having with their articles is not the context, but the end game. What more do they want? Pegula to threaten to pull his funding? Who does that hurt more, the guilty party, or the students who would be using the new facilities? I just don't understand their angle outside of manufacturing controversy.

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